Potential New Bike Café around Enniskerry

Sunsets On Tuesday

Chuchote wrote: »

It might be worth talking to the people who run the Rothar cafe in Dublin city centre, who also run cycling and bike mending and professional bike mechanic classes and repurpose secondhand bikes for re-use. They might (I don't know them) even want to come in on this with you.

From the point of view of the passing cyclist, I don't know that a van is going to cut it. I like to get off my bike and sit down in a bit of comfort and relax. Others may feel differently though.

I'd agree with you fully, that's why I'm still not keen on the mobile idea. I know I'd much prefer to sit down too, much more of a destination.

ted1

Crocked wrote: »

I always wondered why an ice cream van can set up at viewpoint but no-one selling coffee/sandwiches/snacks etc has tried it.

Its a popular and natural stop for a lot of cyclists heading into the hills, along with tourists and day-trippers etc

Is the ice cream van just chancing his arm hoping the council won't move him on an any given day during the summer? Coffee/food would surely have more year round appeal than ice cream would, and it'd be popular enough in all seasons with hikers, mountain bikers, bikers etc passing that way. Although there is a coffee place just down the road near the Hellfire but never seems to be many cars in the carpark as I pass and I've never stopped into it myself.

They generally do have a traders licence from the council

Sunsets On Tuesday

Plastik wrote: »

Are you looking to open a coffee shop with a side order of cyclists, or a bike shop with a side order of coffee? Because they're both very different affairs.

There are a lot of good ideas in the thread but a lot of pie in the sky stuff that just breeds confusion too. A lot of people mention good food is a must. That's fine, but are you going to have a kitchen and staff preparing the food? Will this mean you need someone on the till, a barista and someone in the kitchen all weekend every weekend? If catered towards cyclists keep it simple - scones, pastries, and cyclist orientated confectionary. Thats it. Someone doing bike repairs? That's another wage bill you have to find.

Good value good coffee and space are my two biggest considerations when stopping. Space in terms of getting a seat and space in terms of somewhere to put the bike. Even food is a secondary consideration. I don't go cycling to go for breakfast somewhere, I don't care if you do the greatest eggs benedict in the world, I'll never have them - I'm sure many, many others feel the same.

Someone mentioned crockery? Who cares. Never once in any time I've ever stopped for coffee have I ever thought that fancy crockery added any extra value.
Lounge area showing cycling? Wasted space. Tables, chairs and plenty of them. None with cushions, because on a wet day a wet cyclists arse ruins that seat for every subsequent customer. Have a few TV's on the walls showing stuff.

A lot have mentioned the Glendalough Green as a good example of somewhere. In my opinion they do well by virtue of their location and little more. The coffee is massively overpriced - Dublin city centre prices - and you're more likely to be greeted with a scowl by the lady behind the till than a welcome. I've stopped going there unless it's an emergency stop.

Trying to bring a local cycling club to your shop to have themselves based there? Forget it. It'll happen naturally or not at all. The best thing you can do in that regard is advertise the crap out of a "shop ride" every week at some time. That'll be the slow burner club that will grow organically.

if it's predominantly a coffee shop with a side order of cyclists just stock tubes, chain links, chains, tyre levers. All that small crap. I wouldn't carry a single item of clothing other than a small selection of overshoes, arm & knee warmers and maybe some rain gilets.

Of course a lot of the above can change completely if you need to make a proper go of a commercial coffee shop that will be able to stand on its own two feet for the other five days of the week when all the cyclists are in work dreaming of visiting you.

The biggest own goal I've seen in recent years in this whole concept was Cycleplus in Greystones. The town probably sells more cups of coffee per capita than any other town in Ireland. They had a shop in a prime location right in the middle of the town and on the sunny side of the Main St. Never once did they ever try something like this despite having a TV inside showing cycling a lot of the time. Instead they had yards of retail space inside devoted to overpriced tyres and racks of Altura high vis gear. They eventually had to vacate the premises because of the cost of rates, but with a bit of creative thinking it could have been a runner. Such a missed opportunity. They even had the shop ride outs going at one stage too.

Not a bike shop, but a cyclist focused café that would also attract the average joe off the street. Thanks for the indepth response, what location do you think would work best? Is Greystones still a runner or is that too infested with cafés nowadays?

Plastik

Your biggest challenge in that instance won't be bringing the cyclists in, but how to survive through the lean day every other week. It's how you get that particular footfall is key IMO. Cyclists are a fickle bunch. You put a TV or two on the wall showing the cycling, some cycling paraphernalia on the walls, have good keenly priced coffee & scones and the cyclists will stop there.

Hard to know what location would work best. Greystones seems to have an insatiable appetite for coffee culture and I could easily see it working down there. You're then already in a town environ with huge footfall and much more likely to soak up some of the passing general trade. Prime location though for everything - property in particular - and rates on the Main St were an issue before. Certainly worth looking at though IMO. Perhaps it is something that the guys in The Happy Pear might be interested in getting on board with, they've recently expanded.

I think there's also scope in Laragh for a new venture, but you will suffer out there for the rest of the year with reduced footfall and making ends meet.

Sunsets On Tuesday

Hey guys, so at this point it's still tough to know if it's a good idea or not. I think the only way you could really tell if it'll be a success or not is if it's set up, part-time at least to test the market. The mobile idea is good, but it's just not for me I don't think. I'm going to contact LMNH and Rothar regarding business and will keep you posted. The location is the toughest point, for most cyclist cafés I've heard of, they're set up in a big city which becomes a place to centre your rides around, but also attracts the non-cyclist crowd.
As we all know though, rents are quite high in town, so you'd have to get it 100% right from the off.
Is the more distant location, like Annamoe or Rathdrum just too far away for most?
And lastly, is Kilternan/Stepaside/Enniskerry a complete right off? I suppose if you set it up in a build up area with offices and a strong local population, that will solve the "wet tuesday in February" problem. So maybe Sandyford/Dundrum would be the best of both worlds?

Sunsets On Tuesday

Plastik wrote: »

Your biggest challenge in that instance won't be bringing the cyclists in, but how to survive through the lean day every other week. It's how you get that particular footfall is key IMO. Cyclists are a fickle bunch. You put a TV or two on the wall showing the cycling, some cycling paraphernalia on the walls, have good keenly priced coffee & scones and the cyclists will stop there.

Hard to know what location would work best. Greystones seems to have an insatiable appetite for coffee culture and I could easily see it working down there. You're then already in a town environ with huge footfall and much more likely to soak up some of the passing general trade. Prime location though for everything - property in particular - and rates on the Main St were an issue before. Certainly worth looking at though IMO. Perhaps it is something that the guys in The Happy Pear might be interested in getting on board with, they've recently expanded.

I think there's also scope in Laragh for a new venture, but you will suffer out there for the rest of the year with reduced footfall and making ends meet.

I personally love Greystones, a nice café near the sea front would be kinda perfect.. but you'd wonder if there's just to much competition in Greystones, especially with the Happy Pear being so popular. If I tried to do it with them, would they go for Greystones location again? You'd think they'd want to set up somewhere else, but still interesting to look at.
Would the footfall in Greystones be constant? I.e. would there be people around for a coffee on a wet tuesday morning in January?

robyntmorton

I think that the best thing you can do is to start putting together a business plan. Outline what you want to do, where you want to do it. Look at the financials of it and so on.

Then sit down with someone. Someone who is not a cyclist, who "may hang out there if it is open". Someone who is not into the coffee culture, who "may hang out at a quirky coffee shop". Someone who is interested in just one thing - the money side of it. Be prepared for them to tear your plan apart over and over again.

Then, and only then, can you decide if it is a runner or not.

iwillhtfu

Looks like your timing is on point

http://road.cc/content/news/204668-interactive-map-cyclist-friendly-caf%C3%A9s-updated

Top ten UK all ideas in thread echoed here albeit with different variations.

http://road.cc/content/feature/168124-10-best-cycling-cafes-voted-you

Sunsets On Tuesday

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Looks like your timing is on point

http://road.cc/content/news/204668-interactive-map-cyclist-friendly-caf%C3%A9s-updated

Top ten UK all ideas in thread echoed here albeit with different variations.

http://road.cc/content/feature/168124-10-best-cycling-cafes-voted-you

It does seem to be a good idea, cyclists do like their coffee, and cakes and a place that is very much cyclist orientated. It's something that doesn't really exist in Ireland- yet! But I'm getting seriously tempted to give it an *educated and researched* shot.

Inquitus

I think any successful cycling Cafe needs to be located, as other people have said, in an urbanish area with plenty of footfall as well as cyclists. Any cycling Cafe in Wicklow is not going to do well in the winter. Howth is certainly a good spot due to the good, well travelled, roads that remain Ice Free in the winter and are well frequented by cyclists in Summer or Winter. As a Northside cyclist I often visit Wicklow in the Summer but would never travel down there in the Winter, I also know that even on the Iciest Winter days the roads to Howth will be safe to travel. Il Panorama in Portmarnock is a good example of a cyclist friendly, but non specialist, Cafe with good local, non cycling, footfall and on a well travelled cycling route from Co. Dub to Howth during the Winter.

iwillhtfu

I wish you every success.

I do however think this idea is one for a euro millions win where you can afford to operate at a loss or barely breaking even. It would certainly need a heavy investment especially in the areas you mention for one I'd say the rent rates are massive in greystones and that's provideo you could find an empty space.

It certainly would be cool to visit a cafe as described and perhaps the few that mentioned visiting similar cafes could confirm. Did you make a repeat visit? I suspect it would be a novelty for the odd occasion as opposed to a regular visit.

If this does spring to life I will certainly drop in. Good luck

Sunsets On Tuesday

Inquitus wrote: »

I think any successful cycling Cafe needs to be located, as other people have said, in an urbanish area with plenty of footfall as well as cyclists. Any cycling Cafe in Wicklow is not going to do well in the winter. Howth is certainly a good spot due to the good, well travelled, roads that remain Ice Free in the winter and are well frequented by cyclists in Summer or Winter. As a Northside cyclist I often visit Wicklow in the Summer but would never travel down there in the Winter, I also know that even on the Iciest Winter days the roads to Howth will be safe to travel. Il Panorama in Portmarnock is a good example of a cyclist friendly, but non specialist, Cafe with good local, non cycling, footfall and on a well travelled cycling route from Co. Dub to Howth during the Winter.

Is Howth well serviced for cyclists? In terms of cyclist friendly cafés or shops? Because that place is always busy with cyclists it seems!

Sunsets On Tuesday

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I wish you every success.

I do however think this idea is one for a euro millions win where you can afford to operate at a loss or barely breaking even. It would certainly need a heavy investment especially in the areas you mention for one I'd say the rent rates are massive in greystones and that's provideo you could find an empty space.

It certainly would be cool to visit a cafe as described and perhaps the few that mentioned visiting similar cafes could confirm. Did you make a repeat visit? I suspect it would be a novelty for the odd occasion as opposed to a regular visit.

If this does spring to life I will certainly drop in. Good luck

I'd hope for it to be a place where cyclists would come back again and again, rather than a once off.
You really think it would be that hard to even get to the point of breaking even? Even in an urban area well serviced by cyclists and general footfall?

Rambling Man

Sunsets On Tuesday wrote: »

I'd hope for it to be a place where cyclists would come back again and again, rather than a once off.
You really think it would be that hard to even get to the point of breaking even? Even in an urban area well serviced by cyclists and general footfall?

As somebody suggested earlier, there's probably good reason why this hasn't really been done before. Its for someone who can afford it as a loss leader for an established business, be it a bike store chain or a cafe. And for that reason I'm out.

Inquitus

Starbucks was a cycle shop in Howth recently and its being shut down for planning violations, maybe your cycling cafe would be the karmic middle road!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/council-gives-starbucks-in-howth-four-weeks-to-close-1.2788800

Sunsets On Tuesday

Inquitus wrote: »

Starbucks was a cycle shop in Howth recently and its being shut down for planning violations, maybe your cycling cafe would be the karmic middle road!

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/council-gives-starbucks-in-howth-four-weeks-to-close-1.2788800

That would be an ideal location for it, well serviced by cyclists and locals alike. Rents unfortunately would be high though

Chuchote

Cafes can be a dodgy business. I had a nice local cafe here - one of the five or six within easy walking distance - and it closed; the manager was offered the chance to buy it but she looked at the figures and decided not to. It's open again - haven't been in yet in the couple of years since it reopened.
Meanwhile, I was passing another new cafe in Rathmines and walked in, and there the former manager was. I had a bit of a chat with her and got a cuppa, nice place, good coffee, not huge numbers in it though. A few weeks later it had closed again.
Another local cafe, very well patronised and much loved, with really excellent dirty chai latte, closed over a weekend, and after a few weeks reopened as a classier type. A third, the same thing.
I wonder whether the basic Rothar idea - a bike shop with classes and a cafe - might be a better model? Maybe offer cycling classes to local schools, see if there's a certification you could offer the kids, and bicycle mending classes to the older kids?
This is probably something you're going to try, fail, try, fail, try, succeed, as experience builds up, Sunsets. (The only time this doesn't work is, as in some boardsie's signature, something like "If trial and error is your thing, parachuting isn't for you".)

Sunsets On Tuesday

Chuchote wrote: »

Cafes can be a dodgy business. I had a nice local cafe here - one of the five or six within easy walking distance - and it closed; the manager was offered the chance to buy it but she looked at the figures and decided not to. It's open again - haven't been in yet in the couple of years since it reopened.
Meanwhile, I was passing another new cafe in Rathmines and walked in, and there the former manager was. I had a bit of a chat with her and got a cuppa, nice place, good coffee, not huge numbers in it though. A few weeks later it had closed again.
Another local cafe, very well patronised and much loved, with really excellent dirty chai latte, closed over a weekend, and after a few weeks reopened as a classier type. A third, the same thing.
I wonder whether the basic Rothar idea - a bike shop with classes and a cafe - might be a better model? Maybe offer cycling classes to local schools, see if there's a certification you could offer the kids, and bicycle mending classes to the older kids?
This is probably something you're going to try, fail, try, fail, try, succeed, as experience builds up, Sunsets. (The only time this doesn't work is, as in some boardsie's signature, something like "If trial and error is your thing, parachuting isn't for you".)

Thanks for this. I'd probably follow the rothar/Look mum no hands model, offering two things, the cycling side of things and the café. Maybe that will be enough or maybe it won't. Cafés in town are a hard thing to get right, with all the starbucks popping up (mostly illegally!) But perhaps in towns in the suburbs, like Enniskerry or Howth, it could work better. Kinda like what The Happy Pear did in Greystones. Not as much competition but great café & hard work =success.

iwillhtfu

Sunsets On Tuesday wrote: »

Thanks for this. I'd probably follow the rothar/Look mum no hands model, offering two things, the cycling side of things and the café. Maybe that will be enough or maybe it won't. Cafés in town are a hard thing to get right, with all the starbucks popping up (mostly illegally!) But perhaps in towns in the suburbs, like Enniskerry or Howth, it could work better. Kinda like what The Happy Pear did in Greystones. Not as much competition but great café & hard work =success.

What the happy pear have done is definitely the exception to the rule. They were set up long before Greystones became what it is now and they also have cookery classes and are creeping into bed with Supervalu. They are certainly on trend at the minute though.

Sunsets On Tuesday

Chuchote wrote: »

I wouldn't even think of cycling around the lake on the hoggen track, it's designed for walking, and cycling is surely just going to cut it up?

Glenasmole from the air:

Went up there today on the advice of this thread, it's EVEN better in real life, believe it or not, especially with a sunset. Crazy climb, would recommend to everyone. Not well serviced by cafés either..... but it's just too much of a secret at the moment to be setting up anything. It must be said though, a coffee van at the top would have been appreciated!
Also spotted some vans and units set up in the Blue Light car park, could look into that too perhaps.

Crocked

You should check out what cyclesuperstore have been doing since their move.

Have a café, have setup spins from the store and they have it located in an industrial estate so get trade from there during the week. They have a club room for clubs to use. pretty much everything that has been said here.

I'd be surprised if you'd get planning for a café in Glenasmole either.

Chuchote

Sunsets On Tuesday wrote: »

Went up there today on the advice of this thread, it's EVEN better in real life, believe it or not, especially with a sunset. Crazy climb, would recommend to everyone. Not well serviced by cafés either..... but it's just too much of a secret at the moment to be setting up anything. It must be said though, a coffee van at the top would have been appreciated!
Also spotted some vans and units set up in the Blue Light car park, could look into that too perhaps.

Shhh, don't be telling people.