Overpaid?

RiseToMe

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

If you do pay back the 4k then as long as your employer reflects it in your P45 then you should be able to claim back any extra tax you paid from revenue in a fairly reasonable amount of time. It used to only be a couple of weeks turn around time for claiming back things like emergency tax, which should be a similar enough scenario to this, but I haven't had to deal with them in a while so no idea what they are like speed wise these days.

Ok so when it comes to P45 time he reduces whatever it is they've paid me over the 10 months by 4k and then I do a balancing statement? It wont matter that the payslips for the 10 months amount to a larger amount?

dilallio

RiseToMe wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far guys,

He seems to think it they may have put me down as working 3 days when I was working only 2 but my payslips say 16 hours which is two days.

I am assuming that these payslips are produced by your manager's company and not your own company.

If your payslips say 16 hrs (2 days), then he cannot claim or even think that you were getting 3 days salary instead of 2.

In the absence of a contract, what's written on the payslips becomes a lot more important in determining the actual arrangement.

If it were me, I would point this out, and ask him to clarify his company's position in light of this information. He would be wise to ask for a greatly reduced figure, but you're under no obligation to agree to a reduced amount.

Tiddlypeeps

RiseToMe wrote: »

Ok so when it comes to P45 time he reduces whatever it is they've paid me over the 10 months by 4k and then I do a balancing statement? It wont matter that the payslips for the 10 months amount to a larger amount?

That would be my understanding of it. If for some reason you need the details of what went down spelled out you could ask your employer to include the correction in your final payslip, so the final payslip would say your net pay was a negative amount. But as far as I know P45 is all that really matters.

sondagefaux

OP, will you come and work for me? You sound like the ideal employee...

RiseToMe

sondagefaux wrote: »

OP, will you come and work for me? You sound like the ideal employee...

Because money doesn't motivate me? Or because I'll pay you back if you overpay me?:p

RiseToMe

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

That would be my understanding of it. If for some reason you need the details of what went down spelled out you could ask your employer to include the correction in your final payslip, so the final payslip would say your net pay was a negative amount. But as far as I know P45 is all that really matters.

Thanks, this is the kinda of info I need, I'll ask him if this is something he can organise (this is a worldwide set up where salaries are done for each office by that office but all centralised in terms of payments and payslips, P45s etc).

There is a chance he wont want to go this route as it may trigger audits, so I will offer to pay back 2k (4k minus the tax I paid on it)

bilbot79

IT all sounds incredibly dodgy and there I actually a small risk he is defrauding you. Laundering cash by under/over reporting salary and/or tax??

brownian

Cleaner all round just to say no. Your own tax status looks dodgy, from the point of view of any serious audit, if for no documented reason you pay your employer 4000 euro.

On another front, your employer deducted about 2k from your pay, and gave it to the Revenue, to reflect wages paid. These wages are now no longer paid (the company has the money again). The employer should now try asking the Rev to give those 2k back. Then, your 2k + the Rev's 2k = the missing 4k, for which the company is then liable for corpo tax in the usual way...that's less than 50%, of course, so they'll be quids in.

But really - the company made a complete hames of this, and you're entitled, safer and simpler to just say 'I'd like to, but I won't'.

ainecaine

if your employer wants the 4000 gross paid back, you should only have to pay a net of 2000 to them, and when they gross it up it will equate to the full gross of 4000. The repayment should definitely go through payroll and you should get a final payslip showing your year to date includes the repayment and tax rebate, and should match exactly the amounts on your p45.
I work as a payroll manager, PM me if you want to get specific with numbers and I will explain it better.

RiseToMe

ainecaine wrote: »

if your employer wants the 4000 gross paid back, you should only have to pay a net of 2000 to them, and when they gross it up it will equate to the full gross of 4000. The repayment should definitely go through payroll and you should get a final payslip showing your year to date includes the repayment and tax rebate, and should match exactly the amounts on your p45.
I work as a payroll manager, PM me if you want to get specific with numbers and I will explain it better.

Really appreciate this, I'll drop you a pm tomorrow morning if you don't mind.

Mrs OBumble

RiseToMe wrote: »

He seems to think it they may have put me down as working 3 days when I was working only 2 but my payslips say 16 hours which is two days.

OP, I'm finding it hard to believe you are swallowing the complete and utter BS he is feeding you.

Forget the hourly rate (because, hell, both you and the employer have forgotten what was said).

How many days per week have you worked?

If it is two, ie 16 hours, like you said, then you have been correctly paid.

The only way that you could have been overpaid is if the hours were wrong.

For your employer to think you have been overpaid, and to have a number for the amount of the overpayment when he doesn't know your pay rate is .. umm ... indicative of some weird sort of problem. Maybe not quite fraud or money laundering, more likely that he's got a problem with his budget and sees you as a handy way of fixing it.

Now, if you value the relationship with him that highly, feel free to pay some money to him - the equivalent of 4k gross.

He will put this through is books as salary recovery. But you should not for one minute think you have been overpaid. In your eyes, all you are doing is buying a positive leaving relationship.

davo10

The fact that the overpayment is from January only would seem to be significant as presumably the op would have noticed his pay packet changing from what it was prior to that. There could be an explanation for the overpayment, if the op (or his accountant) allocated all tax credits to other source of income from the end of the last tax year, then beginning in January his net pay from this job would have gone down quite a bit because there would be no credits to offset against the tax payable. If the op did not inform this employer about the reallocation of tax credits, the employer would continue to pay the same net as if the tax credits were being applied and then get a big bill from Revenue when the op leaves.

Taken in isolation, because of low pay in this job, when tax credits were applied, the op would pay very little tax. But because tax credits were allocated to his other, much higher income, the op would be paying the full rate of tax of this income (which would indeed be around 33%), I suspect the employer was not informed that tax credits were allocated to other income and continued to pay op what was effectively the tax free net amount, now Revenue want the tax.

The reallocation of tax credits can be an issue when an employee marries and then allocates all credits to their spouse, if the employer doesn't spot this, the employee can continue to be paid the same net and then the employer gets hit with a whopping bill by Revenue and has to go to the employee for repayment of tax, not easy if the employee is leaving like the op.

Op, both you and your employer can get your agreed pay from your first payslip. He would have had to set this up with payroll/revenue in order to calculate your net pay so check the gross and divide it by the hours worked that month. If it was wrong from the start, then you accepting it for a year is beyond belief.

Op, if it is tax that is the issue, while your employer may arrange to deduct it and pay it on your behalf, it is in fact you who is liable for it so you need to ask him if this is what the overpayment relates to.

RiseToMe

davo10 wrote: »

The fact that the overpayment is from January only would seem to be significant as presumably the op would have noticed his pay packet changing from what it was prior to that. There could be an explanation for the overpayment, if the op (or his accountant) allocated all tax credits to other source of income from the end of the last tax year, then beginning in January his net pay from this job would have gone down quite a bit because there would be no credits to offset against the tax payable. If the op did not inform this employer about the reallocation of tax credits, the employer would continue to pay the same net as if the tax credits were being applied and then get a big bill from Revenue when the op leaves.

Taken in isolation, because of low pay in this job, when tax credits were applied, the op would pay very little tax. But because tax credits were allocated to his other, much higher income, the op would be paying the full rate of tax of this income (which would indeed be around 33%), I suspect the employer was not informed that tax credits were allocated to other income and continued to pay op what was effectively the tax free net amount, now Revenue want the tax.

The reallocation of tax credits can be an issue when an employee marries and then allocates all credits to their spouse, if the employer doesn't spot this, the employee can continue to be paid the same net and then the employer gets hit with a whopping bill by Revenue and has to go to the employee for repayment of tax, not easy if the employee is leaving like the op.

Op, both you and your employer can get your agreed pay from your first payslip. He would have had to set this up with payroll/revenue in order to calculate your net pay so check the gross and divide it by the hours worked that month. If it was wrong from the start, then you accepting it for a year is beyond belief.

Op, if it is tax that is the issue, while your employer may arrange to deduct it and pay it on your behalf, it is in fact you who is liable for it so you need to ask him if this is what the overpayment relates to.

I appreciate the reply and the time and consideration you gave to it, however it is not bin to with tax. I have been consistently paid 1500 a month for 2 days a week since December (not in Nov as I only started mid month). He seems to be of the opinion that the pay in December is correct (perhaps payment due to working bank holidays etc and I also took one unpaid day).

When I started there I had my full annual allocation of tax credits to use so in Nov and Dec did not pay tax, however my allocation was changed from January and has been correctly deducated by them every month in accordance to the salary I was being paid and the fact that I allocated zero credit to them. So its not a tax issue in the sense that you ask, it's a tax query for me as if I pay him back the gross overpayment u need to be able to get back the tax paid by me.



Edited to put emphasis on the fact that there was not an extra 500 in my pay from January that I didn't notice or ignored, I'm not that kind of person. In Nov I was paid around 1040(gross) , as I didn't start til the 2nd week if I recall so not a full month, in December I was paid roughly 1350 (gross) if I recall correctly but had taken a day unpaid leave for Christmas and then in January onward I did my full allocation of hours every month and was grossing 1500. So no, I didn't notice a surge in pay and choose to ignore it.

RiseToMe

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, I'm finding it hard to believe you are swallowing the complete and utter BS he is feeding you.

Forget the hourly rate (because, hell, both you and the employer have forgotten what was said).

How many days per week have you worked?

If it is two, ie 16 hours, like you said, then you have been correctly paid.

The only way that you could have been overpaid is if the hours were wrong.

For your employer to think you have been overpaid, and to have a number for the amount of the overpayment when he doesn't know your pay rate is .. umm ... indicative of some weird sort of problem. Maybe not quite fraud or money laundering, more likely that he's got a problem with his budget and sees you as a handy way of fixing it.

Now, if you value the relationship with him that highly, feel free to pay some money to him - the equivalent of 4k gross.

He will put this through is books as salary recovery. But you should not for one minute think you have been overpaid. In your eyes, all you are doing is buying a positive leaving relationship.

I've worked 2 days a week every week from January.

Honestly, part of me feels it's his problem I have no contract so I have no hard facts other than his word of the over payment, however at the same time, morally I feel it's correct to come to a resolution with him. I just don't want to end up more out of pocket through it but I think I've gotten a good steer on how to make that work.

sondagefaux

Morally, the correct solution is to ask him for documented evidence that you've been overpaid, including a contract showing your agreed pay rate, timesheets and payslips showing how many hours you've worked and how much you've been paid.

Being a pushover for a potentially dodgy employer isn't a morally correct way of acting - you make it significantly harder for other employees to ensure that they are paid and treated properly if you concede to this demand. Every employee who doesn't stand up for themselves is also failing to stand up for other employees.

meme74

If you only work 2 days a week and have a 4 grand overpayment in 9 months then I struggle to see how you didnt notice yourself? Surely you had some idea what you were expecting to be paid? I know you say money wasn't a factor but you honestly dont have a clue how much was agreed??

xabi

So much conflicting info here, you need 2 people, your Accountant and a Solicitor.

sbsquarepants

RiseToMe wrote: »

I dont know if legally I can just walk away and not pay it back from googling a bit- not accurate I know but as I said, I am awaiting the legal position call which may take some time!

Of course you can - he thinks that maybe they should have been paying you x amount... what a pile of shíte. Tell him you got paid for the work you have done, he can have his money back when he finds a way to give you your time back, end of story.

endacl wrote: »

Tell him that, according to your records, you were underpaid. Make up any old figure you like.

Excellent advice.

Don't hand over 4grand, or 2 grand or 2 cent for that matter because of bullshít like this.

sbsquarepants

xabi wrote: »

So much conflicting info here, you need 2 people, your Accountant and a Solicitor.

You don't need either of these people - your employer does.
Just politely tell him no and move on.

xabi

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You don't need either of these people - your employer does.
Just politely tell him no and move on.

No, he definitely does.

sbsquarepants

Would be a total waste of money in my opinion.
Employer is a chancer - he should just call his bluff and walk away. He won't pursue it and even if he did, he hasn't a leg to stand on.
Employer doesn't know how much the OP should have been paid, but somehow knows how much they've been overpaid - how are those 2 "facts" compatible?
It would be laughed out of any court. Just walk away and keep the money in your pocket - where it belongs!

RiseToMe

meme74 wrote: »

If you only work 2 days a week and have a 4 grand overpayment in 9 months then I struggle to see how you didnt notice yourself? Surely you had some idea what you were expecting to be paid? I know you say money wasn't a factor but you honestly dont have a clue how much was agreed??

I only work 2 days a week THERE. I have my own company which pays a good salary and I have teaching position also. Ive been over this on this thread- my interest wasn't the figure of payment (i knew whatever it was would be reduced to SFA after tax) it was the agreement on flexibility and clinical exposure that I required. When they offered me the job these were the elements that I clarified. As stated on my stater form I had to give it back with salary blank as I genuinely had no idea.

RiseToMe

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Rather than address them individually, I am awaiting a call back from my accountant to see what way it impacted me tax wise. I am also awaiting a call back from my solicitor just to get an idea of what I need to be written up.

I am fairly certain that no court would see he has a case and yes he could be chancing his arm, I have no idea. But at the end of the day, my industry is small, I don't want bad blood between us.

meme74

RiseToMe wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Rather than address them individually, I am awaiting a call back from my accountant to see what way it impacted me tax wise. I am also awaiting a call back from my solicitor just to get an idea of what I need to be written up.

I am fairly certain that no court would see he has a case and yes he could be chancing his arm, I have no idea. But at the end of the day, my industry is small, I don't want bad blood between us.

Very decent of you

lawred2

RiseToMe wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Handed in my notice to a place where I work PT, I am self employed director in my own company as well (so PAYE worker there too). Director called me in today to say that he had noticed that they had been overpaying me since January (I started in Nov) to the tune of about 4 grand total.

It gets a little more complex as he cant seem to recall what they offered salary wise and honestly, neither can I, it was almost a year ago and I was in Tesco when they called (salary didnt matter to me I needed the position to satisfy other requirements for a course I teach so it wasn't a defining part of the conversation).

This teamed with the fact that I was never given a contract so I was unknowingly over paid for this time. I didnt notice as I was paid the exact same every month (in November/Dec it was higher as I had tax credits) every month it was consistently the same figure.

He has given me two options:
Work until the end of the year for free (!!!!)
Or pay back the 4000.

In theory I think I have to pay it back? However I have issue with the fact that I will not have seen most of that 4000 myself, I will have paid 50% in taxes as it was all taxed at the higher rate, so where does that leave me?

I have sought legal advice however I would like a couple of views on this as I am waiting on calls back and this is stressing me out big time.

he doesn't know what you were supposed to be paid but claims that they overpaid you?

lol

sammysnail016

RossieMan wrote: »

Offer half as a good will gesture. I wouldn't be returning the whole lot without a contract stating up salary.

Defo don't do this... They don't have a leg to stand on legally and just tell them that " I am sorry that you only noticed this now but I can't seem to find the contract with my wage on it so I am unable to pay you back"

Turtle_

sammysnail016 wrote: »

Defo don't do this... They don't have a leg to stand on legally and just tell them that " I am sorry that you only noticed this now but I can't seem to find the contract with my wage on it so I am unable to pay you back"

Except that the OP says he works in a small field. It MIGHT be a genuine error where someone thought he was working 3 days to said "3/5 of 2500pm = 1500pm" and told payroll that he was getting 1500 a month, not realizing that he's working 2 days a week, but payroll had the correct hours so was putting it through as 1500 for 2 days a week.

I wouldn't close any doors on yourself, OP. I'd be more inclined to say something like "I understand that you believe I have been overpaid in error. As per my payslips, I have been paid for two days per week which accurately reflects the service I have provided. I'm keen to resolve the issue, including any effects that this alleged overpayment could raise with taxation and PRSI. To initiate matters, could you please provide me with documentation demonstrating the rate of payment was incorrect from January onwards, but correct before January. I'm sure you understand that I am keen to ensure that there is no outstanding liability with Revenue and so will need this documentation in case of a Revenue audit".

If you genuinely think that there has been an overpayment, the best solution for everyone would seem to be a negative final payslip. You refund them the difference between what you received net of deductions, and what you should have received, net of deductions. Then get the employer to recoup the extra tax and PRSI paid over in error from Revenue. You're responsible for returning what they "incorrectly" gave you, however, they are responsible for administration of the PAYE system.


What is really ringing alarm bells here, though, is how they've decided that the same rate of pay was only incorrect for 9 of the 11 months. Sounds like the only difference in the net pay was due to taxation and hours worked differences and not the rate.

By all means, engage (whilst also engaging with your solicitor and accountant), but don't hand over a cent until you're satisfied that everything is being done correctly.

RossieMan

The op doesn't care about the money. He wants to end on good terms. Which I find commendable on this day with all the ****ers out there. The business may not have the money to lose 4k. Halving the amount may be good for both parties.

None of us can tell the op what to do. His accountant is best placed for this.

zoeybelle

Check your December payslip it should have an hourly rate of pay and generally a gross salary amount. Check ur August payslip are they still the same? If they are you have been paid the same hourly rate since you started which would prove his January theory is rubbish and ergo the whole story is rubbish. Also I totally agree with every other poster who said unless it was in writing I wouldn't give them a penny. How do u know he won't turn around after u pay up and leave and do the same to the rest of his staff using your repayment as precedent for the "correct" salary.

RiseToMe

RiseToMe wrote: »

He seems to think it they may have put me down as working 3 days when I was working only 2 but my payslips say 16 hours which is two days.

RiseToMe wrote: »

I only work 2 days a week

Sorry if I've missed something but your payslips reflect 16 hours which is 2 days a week which is what you worked.

Even without a contract, if your payslips reflect what you were paid and that it was for 2 days per week, where's confusion??