7,000 cars a month caught with no NCT

grogi

Cheensbo wrote: »

And what about all of the possible places that someone could be getting repairs carried out??


It wouldn't work, too many variables.

Are there exemptions for that? Can't find anything like that in S.I. No. 567/2009...

NIMAN

Fine them and let them appeal.
I think you would find most are just dodging the NCT and will pay up.

Special Circumstances

NIMAN wrote: »

Fine them and let them appeal.
I think you would find most are just dodging the NCT and will pay up.

Yeah, seems fine to me.
You could even wait the 28 days to allow for test or retest,
recheck database
if (NCT status not valid AND Vehicle not declared off the road)
send fine
else
do nothing

It wouldn't be to the letter of the law, it would allow people to do a certain amount of time without NCT, but it seems fair to me.

Dionysius2

Surely this is tecky detection all the way....the ANPR thingy detects the car in use on the public road without being reg for in-force NCT and the summons issues automatically to you as reg owner....and option is : pay the fine & accept the penalty points or go to court & contest it but get your mojo NCT'd before u go to meet the beak.....or is that too simple ?

Cheensbo

I don't think dragging 7000 people a month to court is the answer, when many, many of those people would be able to produce a 'booking docket' retrospectively from a "garage" (no rules on who can/can't carry out repairs for an nct) stating that they were on the way to/from repairs when detected. This would just to massive strike out rates & wasted court time.

Correct me if I'm wrong on the above but that's just how I see it panning out..

grogi

Cheensbo wrote: »

I don't think dragging 7000 people a month to court is the answer, when many, many of those people would be able to produce a 'booking docket' retrospectively from a "garage" (no rules on who can/can't carry out repairs for an nct) stating that they were on the way to/from repairs when detected. This would just to massive strike out rates & wasted court time.

Correct me if I'm wrong on the above but that's just how I see it panning out..

There is no exception for the repairs, they should be carried months before the NCT expires.

Cheensbo

You're right, there is no exemption, but in the real world I'm not sure that such a hard line 0-tolerance approach to a flawed testing system (as i said before, its better than nothing, but not by much) would be received well by the general public or those in enforcement..

grogi

Cheensbo wrote: »

You're right, there is no exemption, but in the real world I'm not sure that such a hard line 0-tolerance approach to a flawed testing system (as i said before, its better than nothing, but not by much) would be received well by the general public or those in enforcement..

Me thinks it is high time to stop looking for excuses and to start enforcing the law.

There is a three month period before the NCT expires to pass the test without any penalty. If someone lets the test expire, it is only her/his fault.
Never ever my car was out of an NCT for a single second, even if it needed to be retested.

Cheensbo

Maybe so, perhaps one could start by asking the gardai why those 7000 monthly detections aren't followed up,

Perhaps they might shed some light,

My guess: it is because they don't want to completely alienate the public by hauling them to court/flogging them with points and fines because of things like their lambda reading being a little on the high side. When the rest of their shop is totally in order.

I could be way off, I'm just offering an opinion of sorts..

laoisfan

grogi wrote: »

Me thinks it is high time to stop looking for excuses and to start enforcing the law.

There is a three month period before the NCT expires to pass the test without any penalty. If someone lets the test expire, it is only her/his fault.
Never ever my car was out of an NCT for a single second, even if it needed to be retested.

Unfortunately, people in general aren't as perfect as you.

grogi

laoisfan wrote: »

Unfortunately, people in general aren't as perfect as you.

It is not about perfection. It is about lack of enforcement. The moment the enforcement is in place, the miracles happen.

Three months... It really should be treated as a very long grace period, the law is very flexible here.

Atlantic Dawn

If only there was a paper disc that you legally had to display on the windscreen of your car with the date showing that your NCT expired so you wouldn't have to 2nd guess when it expired, if only the NCT tests were available 7 days a week and could be booked 3 months in advance....if only :pac:

Jayop

If there is a link between not having nct and insurance costs then I'd prefer enforcement to be absolute.

NIMAN

Cheensbo wrote: »

I don't think dragging 7000 people a month to court is the answer,

7000 per month wouldn't end up in court.

The vast majority would pay the fine. Cos the vast majority will be in the wrong.

Cheensbo

NIMAN wrote: »

7000 per month wouldn't end up in court.

The vast majority would pay the fine. Cos the vast majority will be in the wrong.

Being in the wrong and getting out of it are two different things.

It's like the old "sure I never got the letter" excuse for speeding fines etc, it's hard to say how people would react but I bet more than a few would find wiggle room / a loophole.

I'm simply playing devils advocate with assumptions based on the attitude of the typical Irish motorist.. I didn't make the system, but I know it's heavily flawed from loads of angles.

NIMAN

So if you were driving with no NCT and one day a letter comes through the door saying you owe €80, pay by this date, would you ignore it and claim it never arrived?

I know I wouldn't. And the vast majority would pay it too. To think that every Irish motorist is some sort of chancer and will run into court to challenge everything is nonsense.

This no MOT/automatic plate recognition works perfectly well in NI, it should be easy to implement here too.

Cheensbo

NIMAN wrote: »

So if you were driving with no NCT and one day a letter comes through the door saying you owe €80, pay by this date, would you ignore it and claim it never arrived?

I know I wouldn't. And the vast majority would pay it too. To think that every Irish motorist is some sort of chancer and will run into court to challenge everything is nonsense.

This no MOT/automatic plate recognition works perfectly well in NI, it should be easy to implement here too.

Nope because I'm perfect and would never be caught driving without an nct :P



Simply Hypotheticals from me, it wouldn't be a discussion if everyone agreed.

I can't say you're wrong I'm just offering up potential responses / reactions.

I've said before in this thread I am a supporter of nct testing, but I will always note that it is heavily flawed.

No nct does not mean a car is unsafe
Nct does not mean a car is safe

It could be used very effectively to farm cash though if law enforcement was fully committed to doing so.

Wibbs

Cheensbo wrote: »

You're right, there is no exemption, but in the real world I'm not sure that such a hard line 0-tolerance approach to a flawed testing system (as i said before, its better than nothing, but not by much) would be received well by the general public or those in enforcement..

You're wasting your breath Ch. You're dealing with the Concerned Citizen(™) - rules must be applied rigidly - grey areas confuse me - "t'is de law" - high horse mentality here. The battle cry is "baaaaaaa".

Sue Pa Key Pa

Special Circumstances wrote: »

This ad only seems to have appeared AFTER insurance companies decided NCTs on 10+year old cars were worthless.

Insurance Companies would have known how many cars had no NCT from handling claims involving them. They would not have needed to see any Ads.

El_Duderino 09

Cheensbo wrote:

Maybe so, perhaps one could start by asking the gardai why those 7000 monthly detections aren't followed up,

You're almost certainly right. The point of the add is to tell people that the government can crack down and people need to be more serious about getting the NCT renewed in time before it ecpires. Guards don't want to be breaking your balls for every infraction. If the guards actually followed up on 7000 NCTs a month they wouldn't have Time to do much else.

It's just a cultural thing. Other countries take it much more seriously. Do the NCT send a letter to tell you your renewal date? In the UK they send you a letter and tell you that you can do it up to a month in advance. Works reasonably well.

Special Circumstances

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

Insurance Companies would have known how many cars had no NCT from handling claims involving them. They would not have needed to see any Ads.

Oh, so the 15 years old thing is due to NCT status now? It was fraud yesterday. Or was it legitimate claims, just a high amount of them that come below some threshold where it would cost as much to investigate as settle?

I'm 100% confident that, if threatened with sufficient penalties, insurance companies could make stats appear from their magic vault to suit any or all of the above positions.

Will insurance companies offer me a pro-rata discount if I can send them a copy of my NCT cert and test results that show I have an NCT valid for 9 months of my policy? And cash back once I pass the next one?

Will they load me / refuse me if I can't produce a valid NCT for even 1 month.

Let's get serious about this NCT thing right? If it's a major concern for insurers , let's treat it like a major concern.

















What's that????

*Mumble mumble 15 years old something something scummy scummy Mumble mumble*

laoisfan

I have a 1998 Nissan Micra 1.0, TPFT cover on it. They expect a copy of the NCT certificate/disc at each renewal.

Special Circumstances

laoisfan wrote: »

I have a 1998 Nissan Micra 1.0, TPFT cover on it. They expect a copy of the NCT certificate/disc at each renewal.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable request, far more reasonable than "we won't insure any older cars because some don't have NCT sometimes / they're all scummy scummy scummers / a 15 year old car once drove by kinda fast and I dropped my ice cream"

Cheensbo

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable request, far more reasonable than "we won't insure any older cars because some don't have NCT sometimes / they're all scummy scummy scummers / a 15 year old car once drove by kinda fast and I dropped my ice cream"

While I completely agree with your viewpoint, that drum you're beating is getting a little repetitive man...

Special Circumstances

Cheensbo wrote: »

While I completely agree with your viewpoint, that drum you're beating is getting a little repetitive man...

As long as the defence for every insurance policy, even if it contradicts yesterday's one, is "we have stats, no ye can't see them, ye scumbags" I'll have to keep banging it I'm afraid.

Letting patently untrue/contradictory defence or rationalisation of clumsy car hating policies stand unchallenged is as good as agreeing with them.

Cheensbo

Special Circumstances wrote: »

As long as the defence for every insurance policy, even if it contradicts yesterday's one, is "we have stats, no ye can't see them, ye scumbags" I'll have to keep banging it I'm afraid.

Letting patently untrue/contradictory defence or rationalisation of clumsy car hating policies stand unchallenged is as good as agreeing with them.

Fair enough, bang away sc!

Special Circumstances

Cheensbo wrote: »

Fair enough, bang away sc!

I'm the king of bongo baby, I'm the king of bongo bong

Sam Russell

grogi wrote: »

MOT is done by garages, so are in a position to push a few fixes that are not really necessary...

I really prefer the NCT centres. They really have no incentive to fail a good car.

In NI it is done by VOSPA, a Gov agency - not by garages. Can't think why!

In GB it is done by garages since it was introduce (when Adam was a little lad) but now the garages are connected to a central system so they cannot fool around as much - but of course the car under test might not be the car under test.

However the NCT should be annual for all cars (except perhaps vintage) and should be valid for a minimum of 12 months. The first three years could be done by main dealers as part of the annual service with data forwarded to NCT company.

The fee charged is less than 30 mins of a labour charge by most garages.

dr.fuzzenstein

It's just typical of the Irish attitude to anything government related. Buying a car is a scam, servicing is a scam, the NCT is a scam, taxes are a scam, insurance is a scam, how do I avoid, get around, dodge all of the above?
Then stamp your foot and scream when something doesn't work and expect Sweden style public service for Somalia taxes.
Ireland is completely fcuked in the head when it comes to willingness to abide by rules, pay taxes (zero) and expectations of services (everything, as long as someone else pays).
And maybe don't just rely on the NCT to tell you what's wrong and start servicing your sh*teheaps? And don't forget to collect 18k when someone tips into you because you're "entitled" to it.

Special Circumstances

Gangs all here:-)

kilianmanning

I find nct to be a waste of time for checking mechanics, regularly miss things & rarely seem to fail on brake discs despite them being in poor/dangerous condition. I always have the car tested, but if it didn't attract penalty points then i'd never see a test centre.

savagethegoat

you knowingly drive your car with the brakes in poor/dangerous condition?

Cheensbo

savagethegoat wrote: »

you knowingly drive your car with the brakes in poor/dangerous condition?

That's not what he said...

But to be fair, people like him, myself & I'd imagine a lot of posters on this motor enthusiast forum - keep our motors in good safe order for the most part and probably don't need the nct as much as johnnymebolix & marydontcarey down the road - who see car repairs as an unnecessary expense, maintenance consists of putting petrol in, and who only see the inside of a garage when the car stops working.


To echo my echos:

The Nct is shíte, but still miles better than nothing.

To respond yet again to the thread: 7000 detections a month - if they were all acted on we would have a police force called the "nct siochana" or something to that effect..

grogi

Cheensbo wrote: »

To respond yet again to the thread: 7000 detections a month - if they were all acted on we would have a police force called the "nct siochana" or something to that effect..

I would agree with you on that. For a month or two...

After the news spreads around that no matter how smooth you talk, no NCT means points, the detection numbers will go down. Fast...

Dravokivich

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Cynical.

The OP is complaining that the government isn't raising revenue from the NCT and you nearly fell off the chair laughing at the idea that it's not being used as a cash cow.

NCT is primarily about raising vehicle standards. It achieves it's primary objective.

How? the vehicle is judged in comparison to it's manufacturers metrics, or it's exempt.

Sam Russell

Surely if they have photographic evidence that a vehicle is detected on the road without a valid tax disc, insurance, or no NCT, it is just a case of issuing a FCN , penalty points and an eighty euro fine for each offence or see them in court.

Why do they need to stop the vehicle?

sunnysoutheast

grogi wrote: »

MOT is done by garages, so are in a position to push a few fixes that are not really necessary...

I really prefer the NCT centres. They really have no incentive to fail a good car.

Just to be clear I wasn't advocating testing being carried out in repair centres, my view is that the testing itself should be yearly as per the MoT.

sunnysoutheast

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely if they have photographic evidence that a vehicle is detected on the road without a valid tax disc, insurance, or no NCT, it is just a case of issuing a FCN , penalty points and an eighty euro fine for each offence or see them in court.

Why do they need to stop the vehicle?

I'd say that's coming, but I think there is an advantage to the checkpoints etc. as the individuals involved are often involved in other more serious crimes which they can then be picked up for. And then, presumably, let out on bail multiple times.

El_Duderino 09

Dravokivich wrote:

How? the vehicle is judged in comparison to it's manufacturers metrics, or it's exempt.

The test ensures cars are maintained in good condition.

What's your point?

El_Duderino 09

Sam Russell wrote:

Surely if they have photographic evidence that a vehicle is detected on the road without a valid tax disc, insurance, or no NCT, it is just a case of issuing a FCN , penalty points and an eighty euro fine for each offence or see them in court.

Tax justice campaigner Richard Murphy mast this exact point this week on his blog.he made the point I. Relation to UK road tax. The UK has gone to online vehicle tax without needing to display a tax disc. revenue is down 400million.

The filling stations can take every vehicle registration. There's no real reason why they couldn't be compelled to share that information with revenue (in this case NCT). I imagine it could be done.

Voodoomelon

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's just typical of the Irish attitude to anything government related. Buying a car is a scam, servicing is a scam, the NCT is a scam, taxes are a scam, insurance is a scam, how do I avoid, get around, dodge all of the above?
Then stamp your foot and scream when something doesn't work and expect Sweden style public service for Somalia taxes.
Ireland is completely fcuked in the head when it comes to willingness to abide by rules, pay taxes (zero) and expectations of services (everything, as long as someone else pays).

Your posts crack me up because they're normally on the money and entertaining at the same time.

On something of a tangent, the whole taxation thing really gets to me; i've been renovating a house for 3 hours now and through all my quotations and dealing with builders, various trades, storys from friends and family about workmen, decorators, plumbers, electricians, its really incredible that the government gets a single cent out of any of these guys in the entire building trade.

"Oh you want a receipt?" "That price was for cash". The whole HRI scheme has nothing to do with helping home owners, its to make the bloody trades declare some friggin tax.

A generalisation you say? Show me one man that declares and i'll show you five that don't. And now they want to start relaxing rules and regulations to let them run riot, its the complete opposite they should be doing.

Sam Russell

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Your posts crack me up because they're normally on the money and entertaining at the same time.

On something of a tangent, the whole taxation thing really gets to me; i've been renovating a house for 3 hours now and through all my quotations and dealing with builders, various trades, storys from friends and family about workmen, decorators, plumbers, electricians, its really incredible that the government gets a single cent out of any of these guys in the entire building trade.

"Oh you want a receipt?" "That price was for cash". The whole HRI scheme has nothing to do with helping home owners, its to make the bloody trades declare some friggin tax.

A generalisation you say? Show me one man that declares and i'll show you five that don't. And now they want to start relaxing rules and regulations to let them run riot, its the complete opposite they should be doing.

Report them.

Voodoomelon

You can't report someone for something said in conversation. All my trades are legit, its all the other goons quoting for work before hand that irk me.

It's a laugh all these mobile apps out there that allow trades to take debit/credit cards on site from customers. Something tells me the uptake of these services is astronomically low.

kilianmanning

savagethegoat wrote: »

you knowingly drive your car with the brakes in poor/dangerous condition?

Hardly.