Religious education in preschool

lauradryeye

Hi all,

My 4 year old daughter just joined our local preschool and she mentioned that they can't eat their lunch until they said their blessings and done the sign of the cross. I'm not sure if they also do prayers as she doesn't tell me much!
We are atheists, we never talked to her about religion as it never came up really so she doesn't have a clue what this is all about..I am so annoyed over this, like I had no idea that "indoctrination" would start so young. I think what is bothering me the most is the fact that they never told us about it.
I read the school policy and the only thing that they mention about religion is "All children /staff are welcome here regardless of colour, race or religious beliefs. All aspects of cultural diversity should be encouraged and provision should be made within the curriculum to promote these cultures especially if there is a child within the group from a different cultural/religious background. "
I feel like I should say something but don't want to cause any drama..Is this the norm for a preschool?

Pherekydes

lauradryeye wrote: »

I am so annoyed over this, like I had no idea that "indoctrination" would start so young.

That's why it works so well!

How does your preschool manage children of other religions e.g. muslim kids?

They probably haven't really thought through their policy in any depth.

lauradryeye

Pherekydes wrote: »

That's why it works so well!

How does your preschool manage children of other religions e.g. muslim kids?

They probably haven't really thought through their policy in any depth.

I have no idea to be honest but I'm pretty sure that they don't! We live in the country and most of the teachers there are in their 50s so it feels like these things are not questioned at all...
We moved her there because it is so close to us and convenient but we're questioning whether we made the right choice now...I guess it's preparing us for what's ahead of us in school next year...

robindch

lauradryeye wrote: »

I feel like I should say something but don't want to cause any drama..Is this the norm for a preschool?

In many places, yes, it's normal and it continues because - quite understandably - nobody wants to stand out and be the different parent of the different kid with all the social risks which this entails.

Probably the most immediate approach is to have a quiet word with the teacher and explain that you're not religious and you don't want your child exposed to religion in this way. Try to work with them on to develop some way of fencing off the amount of religion in the class. Last week, one poster here in A+A had the same problem with an older child and she offered to have the child play with an iPad while the religious stuff was happening - in the end, a compromise was reached without an iPad, but this kind of horse-trading is symptomatic of what can need to happen. And if a word with the teacher doesn't work, then a word with the principal is in order.

But, in either case, I'd recommend having a read of this website before doing anything as it's got lots of good information on it and the people who run the site will be happy to work with you to develop an approach which can work:

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie

There are sample letters and other useful material there as well:

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/religion-opt-out-letter-primary-school/
http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/school-religion-primary-secondary-opting-out/

Absolam

Hi lauradryeye, is it a Christian pre-school? If so, that might be why there are Christian activities. Either way I'd agree that a word with the teacher should go a long way towards solving your problem; if your daughter is truly welcome there regardless of religious beliefs, then the teacher will find a way to accommodate her once you make your beliefs known.

looksee

lauradryeye wrote: »

Hi all,

My 4 year old daughter just joined our local preschool and she mentioned that they can't eat their lunch until they said their blessings and done the sign of the cross. I'm not sure if they also do prayers as she doesn't tell me much!
We are atheists, we never talked to her about religion as it never came up really so she doesn't have a clue what this is all about..I am so annoyed over this, like I had no idea that "indoctrination" would start so young. I think what is bothering me the most is the fact that they never told us about it.
I read the school policy and the only thing that they mention about religion is "All children /staff are welcome here regardless of colour, race or religious beliefs. All aspects of cultural diversity should be encouraged and provision should be made within the curriculum to promote these cultures especially if there is a child within the group from a different cultural/religious background. "
I feel like I should say something but don't want to cause any drama..Is this the norm for a preschool?

First bolded bit - because you are paying and we are happy to take money from anyone.

Second bolded bit - different from what?

The staff are playing at 'being teachers in big school'; it would serve the children better if they were trained to wash their hands before eating.

lazygal

If it's an ECCE scheme school the OP might not be paying anything.
The problem is that like primary schools most preschools are private concerns and while they might have copied and pasted a dignity and respect blurb from Early Childhood Ireland that can mean SFA if the staff think all the parents want a bit of Catholic stuff rubbed into the kids during the day.
I would approach the teacher, ask him or her what exactly the policy means and how non religious children are treated, and then its probably up to you if you want to keep sending your child or whether another service might be better. It's a crap situation, so many preschools seem to model themselves on primary school type indoctrination and many parents have no issue with prayers, school nativity play etc so my sympathies are with you.

Cabaal

My wife worked as a pre school teacher for a number of years and this from what I've heard from her in relation to meeting other pre school teachers at conferences isn't normal. Pre-school is supposed to be very inclusive and in all the material she had and that I had seen over the years none of it covered "Holy god" and praying at such a very young age.

She would cover countless cultural events in numerous cultures, yes she'd do Christmas, but she'd always do Chinese new year etc. She was all very much about inclusiveness but then she wouldn't push a specific religion on any child as she isn't made that way but then neither were the owners of any creches she worked in.

I'd be talking to the pre-school, paying or not the parent has a say in what is said to their child especially when it comes to stuff like this. This isn't learning about another culture, this is forcing a faith onto a child.

NIMAN

Can I ask the OP what they intend to do when it comes to sending your child to National School?

I only ask as you said you are in the country, and its unlikely you will have an Educate Together or non-denominational school near you, so its very likely that a Catholic run school might be your only option.

Back in the 60's and 70's there were two Protestant girls in my class. When it came to Catechism or religious education, they quietly went to either a side desk or the back of the room with books and read until the class was over. It worked then, so I'm sure it'll work now.

lazygal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Back in the 60's and 70's there were two Protestant girls in my class. When it came to Catechism or religious education, they quietly went to either a side desk or the back of the room with books and read until the class was over. It worked then, so I'm sure it'll work now.

This is a pre school setting. Children that young can't be segregated like you suggest nor should they be if the service states it is inclusive.

The Bishop Basher

lauradryeye wrote: »

I feel like I should say something but don't want to cause any drama..

OP - Of course you should say something. Why wouldn't you ? If you're unhappy with ANY aspect of your child's education, it's your responsibility to sort it. First port of call should be to speak to the owner of the school and hopefully you can find a solution or a compromise. If neither can be found, you always have the option to move your child to another school. But speak to them asap.

lazygal

There is no mention of whether this is a Montessori school. Childcare qualifications vary widely.

The Bishop Basher

lazygal wrote: »

There is no mention of whether this is a Montessori school. Childcare qualifications vary widely.

Fair enough... Not sure why I thought it was a Montessori..

robindch

Cabaal wrote: »

My wife worked as a pre school teacher for a number of years and this from what I've heard from her in relation to meeting other pre school teachers at conferences isn't normal. Pre-school is supposed to be very inclusive and in all the material she had and that I had seen over the years none of it covered "Holy god" and praying at such a very young age.

My ex used to work in a city-center pre-school controlled by a protestant outfit - she had quite a few stories about sing-song sessions with the kids along the lines of "Jesus good, Satan bad", rote praying and the like. She left after a couple of months as she found it too unpleasant. And not only on account of the religious stuff - the people working there were more interested in religion than the kids and she had more stories than she was comfortable with concerning toddlers being left to tote filthy nappies around behind them.

When my own kid got as far as a Montessori school out in south Dublin, the school management did invite in an islamic preacher into the school together with the local parish priest who - I can only imagine by some yawning chasm of taste and oversight - was allowed to hand out sweets to the kids. Other than that though, it was a good school, my kid enjoyed her time there and we'd no trouble either expressing our wish for our kid not to be exposed to religious indoctrination, or - so far as I'm aware - for it to be fully respected.

lauradryeye

Absolam wrote: »

Hi lauradryeye, is it a Christian pre-school? If so, that might be why there are Christian activities. Either way I'd agree that a word with the teacher should go a long way towards solving your problem; if your daughter is truly welcome there regardless of religious beliefs, then the teacher will find a way to accommodate her once you make your beliefs known.

I have no idea if it is a Christian preschool, it definitely wasn't presented as one when I enrolled her a few months ago...I feel like if I say anything it will only make things awkward with the teacher. As other posters said, she is too young to be separated from the rest of the class...I might just ask her specifically how much religion stuff is being brought up everyday, it might be a be soft way to let her know I disapprove..

lauradryeye

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask the OP what they intend to do when it comes to sending your child to National School?

I only ask as you said you are in the country, and its unlikely you will have an Educate Together or non-denominational school near you, so its very likely that a Catholic run school might be your only option.

We have enrolled her in the local national school and I know that legally we're allowed to ask for her to be opted out of religious education so that's what we're planning on doing. I never thought that I'd have to worry about preschool though...

Absolam

lauradryeye wrote: »

I have no idea if it is a Christian preschool, it definitely wasn't presented as one when I enrolled her a few months ago...I feel like if I say anything it will only make things awkward with the teacher. As other posters said, she is too young to be separated from the rest of the class...I might just ask her specifically how much religion stuff is being brought up everyday, it might be a be soft way to let her know I disapprove..

Well, it probably wouldn't be difficult to find out if it is one? Which might help you in your discussions. In all honesty, I very much doubt speaking to the teacher will make it awkward... unless you're telling the teacher you disapprove of religion whilst standing in front of a giant picture of the Sacred Heart at the entrance to the Saint Nicholas Academy of Young Christians. Chances are there are already children in the pre-school who don't have faith backgrounds (whether it's a Christian pre-school or not) and they're already being accommodated. You've given the impression that this is not a subject you've discussed at all with the school so far, so they might be forgiven for not knowing what your preferences are yet? I have a feeling that once you broach the subject you're likely to find them far more receptive than you appear to think they might be.

looksee

So they are either going to stop saying the prayer before lunch, or they are going to tell toddlers 'if you choose to say a prayer with me before lunch you can do so, otherwise you can wait for a moment while we do it'. Right.

Absolam

Hard to say what they'll do without discussing it with them I'd say

Qs

Deleted User wrote: »

Back in the 60's and 70's there were two Protestant girls in my class. When it came to Catechism or religious education, they quietly went to either a side desk or the back of the room with books and read until the class was over. It worked then, so I'm sure it'll work now.

What worked? It seems to have worked at making your believe pre-schoolers should be treated like outsiders and different from the other kids.

NS77

Deleted User wrote: »

Back in the 60's and 70's there were two Protestant girls in my class. When it came to Catechism or religious education, they quietly went to either a side desk or the back of the room with books and read until the class was over. It worked then, so I'm sure it'll work now.

I wonder how that made them feel?

uck51js9zml2yt

My son's pre school is "thank you for our food,thank you for our friends, let's eat. "

robindch

Erin Whining Quotation wrote: »

My son's pre school is "thank you for our food,thank you for our friends, let's eat. "

A few months back, I was at a family wedding and just after he delivered the formal welcome, the father of the bride - for reasons I can only guess at - roared at me to say grace before meals. So, at the top of my voice, I roared back:

Rub-a-dub,
Thanks for the grub.

Even Popette managed to crack a smile after a decent interval.

lazygal

Erin Whining Quotation wrote: »

My son's pre school is "thank you for our food,thank you for our friends, let's eat. "

Thank who? The school or the parents?

Dades

Sounds like the preschool just is run by well meaning types who probably haven't encountered differences of opinion before. They just assume everyone is cathlick and sure what harm a few prayers is nice. The school mantra could well have been cut & pasted from somewhere. (What's that they say about T&Cs and Bible?!)

I'd tread carefully though and sound out the teachers before making any 'demands'. You never know what you might be dealing with. Hopefully reason.

lazygal wrote: »

Thank who? The school or the parents?

frostyjacks

They are giving thanks for those who made the food, those who prepared it, those who they're sharing it with. This is a bad thing how exactly?

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

They are giving thanks for those who made the food, those who prepared it, those who they're sharing it with. This is a bad thing how exactly?

Jesus didn't make any food and by making kids pray and do the sign of the cross the pre school may be ignoring the curriculum that they are supposed to follow. .

I had a chat to somebody very much in the know about this, the two main curriculum used in pre schools are aistear and siolta neither of which have one set religion and instead encourage divisity and multiculturalism.

The pre school curriculum is much more advanced and inclusive then the primary curriculum in this regard.

So taking the curriculum into account the pre school is bang out of order if the are using aistear or siolta, I'd suggest the op queries with the preschool what the curriculum being used is. Because this plays an important part in what options they have.

It's worth pointing out that if they use either of the above curriculum then if a Tusla inspection took place then the preschool would be found non compliant in relation in areas of multiculturalism, diversity, inclusivity and equality.

Tusla is the child and family agency in Ireland and they perform creche and preschool inspections. These would have previously been performed by the HSE.

If the preschool is found at fault here for ignoring its curriculum then I'd point this out to them, if they continue id have a word with Tusla for advice etc.

lauradryeye

Cabaal wrote: »

Jesus didn't make any food and by making kids pray and do the sign of the cross the pre school may be ignoring the curriculum that they are supposed to follow. .

I had a chat to somebody very much in the know about this, the two main curriculum used in pre schools are aistear and siolta neither of which have one set religion and instead encourage divisity and multiculturalism.

The pre school curriculum is much more advanced and inclusive then the primary curriculum in this regard.

So taking the curriculum into account the pre school is bang out of order if the are using aistear or siolta, I'd suggest the op queries with the preschool what the curriculum being used is. Because this plays an important part in what options they have.

It's worth pointing out that if they use either of the above curriculum then if a Tusla inspection took place then the preschool would be found non compliant in relation in areas of multiculturalism, diversity, inclusivity and equality.

Tusla is the child and family agency in Ireland and they perform creche and preschool inspections. These would have previously been performed by the HSE.

If the preschool is found at fault here for ignoring its curriculum then I'd point this out to them, if they continue id have a word with Tusla for advice etc.

Thanks Cabaal, this is interesting as they are indeed following the Sioltar and Aistear programme. I'll try and have a chat with them next week.

Hotblack Desiato

Dades!

Y u no post here any more

frostyjacks

If the curriculum expressly forbids the saying of grace before meals (unlikely), then by all means bring this to their attention. Otherwise, in the spirit of diversity, multiculturalism and tolerance, I would suggest leaving it be. A preschool is no place for a battleground.