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Wiggins/Froome Asthma

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12467…17

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    #92
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    nak wrote: »
    But insulin is used by non diabetic athletes for performance enhancement (usually with GH and steroids) so should be banned unless you're diabetic.

    Seems mad that you can't register through your doctor as a diabetic, and be able to compete.


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    #93
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    nak wrote: »
    But insulin is used by non diabetic athletes for performance enhancement (usually with GH and steroids) so should be banned unless you're diabetic.

    Well then it is a performance enhancing drug despite what was earlier stated. So no you can't compete at the highest level and have no god given right so. Just pick another career


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    #94
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Well then it is a performance enhancing drug despite what was earlier stated. So no you can't compete at the highest level and have no god given right so. Just pick another career

    Point of information. It is not God who decides this.

    A piece in Paris Match (not the most impeccable source, admittedly) about asthma and the current batch of competitive cyclists:

    http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Sport/Froome-Wiggins-l-asthme-et-le-dopage-1068931


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    #95
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Point of information. It is not God who decides this.

    I wanted to be god but wasn't naturally talented enough and haven't been able to get a TUE to allow me reach my goal yet.


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    #96
    nak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Well then it is a performance enhancing drug despite what was earlier stated. So no you can't compete at the highest level and have no god given right so. Just pick another career

    Wow.

    Diabetics can compete with a TUE and quite rightly so.


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    #97
    robyntmorton
    Registered Users Posts: 4,263 ✭✭✭robyntmorton


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Well then it is a performance enhancing drug despite what was earlier stated. So no you can't compete at the highest level and have no god given right so. Just pick another career

    That's an unbelievably negative way of looking at everything. If Robinph has the natural talent to compete and succeed, then why should a health issue that is controllable with the correct treatment be an obstacle. What you are saying is that only the naturally talented and naturally perfectly healthy should be athletes, and that someone in Robinph's position needs to not take the meds, compete, and possibly die, or take the meds, sit on the couch, and just be glad to be alive. That's bull

    The reason TUE's are there is to allow for cases where it is medically necessary to use a substance. The problem arises in the fact that where the potential for abuse exists, you will find some doctor who is willing to do up the paperwork and reports needed to say something is necessary when it really isn't.


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    #98
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    There are 3 choices its either available to nobody, available to everyone or a limit that is available to everyone.


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    #99
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Siobhan Marie O'Connor is an interesting example of this situation. Clearly from her TUE's (released today by Fancy Bears) and what is already in the public domain, she has a bowel condition which affects her in her daily life regardless of doing high level sport. The same applies to diabetics and many other conditions that affect people day to day. She needs her medication to basically function.

    The problem arises whereby some condition is 'exercise induced'. If someone starts to have physical problems as a result of high level competition and needs medical intervention to continue to compete (such as TUE for exercise induced asthma) then I think that's simply hard luck regarding your genetics. A sort of 'survival of the fittest' should be the standard for high level sport. How that can be demarcated, I don't know.

    Of course, that's all even before we talk about the blatant abuse of TUE's by some of those athletes listed by the breach. A lot of people seem to be stuck on the above aspect and arguement and don't see how the TUE's can be abused by certain athletes.


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    #100
    DanDublin1982
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭DanDublin1982


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Is sport not supposed to be along the lines of the best person wins, and health is a major part of this. So if you suffer from asthma then your natural ability at sport is just less than someone who naturally doesn't have asthma.

    So while you claim the medication is not performance enhancing without it you would just not be able to perform at a level to compete with someone without asthma.

    It's certainly a valid viewpoint but begs the question about where to draw the line. What about vitamin supplements? Energy gels? Or are they ok because everyone can take them?

    As I said earlier I'm not pro or against them using an inhaler if they need to but I think certainly it leads to even more questions.

    I will say though that I'm glad that when I had my first asthma attack aged five and was put on medication no one told me there was now no way I could ever be a pro athlete. Its not the life I was destined for regardless but still, im glad it wasn't something taken away from me before I had the chance to realise my other limitations. :)


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    #101
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,084 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    nak wrote: »
    Diabetics can compete with a TUE and quite rightly so.
    Just stating that something is right doesn't make it so. That's the point under discussion.


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    #102
    nak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    Lumen wrote: »
    Just stating that something is right doesn't make it so. That's the point under discussion.

    I don't think there's any grey area in the case of insulin dependant diabetes, you either have it or you don't.


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    #103
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    nak wrote: »
    I don't think there's any grey area in the case of insulin dependant diabetes, you either have it or you don't.

    They grey area is whether you should be allowed compete at the highest level or not.


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    #104
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    Suppose, there are twins, same height, same weight, same training regime, same sex, everything the same, except one has diabetes, the other doesn't.
    Is there any way, that taking insulin will make the diabetic twin a better performing cyclist than the non diabetic sibling?


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    #105
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    gordongekko wrote: »
    There are 3 choices its either available to nobody, available to everyone or a limit that is available to everyone.

    This seems crazy, since it's assuming that everyone's at the same level of fitness. It would make sense if there were no medicine whatsoever, perhaps… would you think, for instance, that all athletes should be precluded from taking any other medications - aspirin and paracetamol, anti-inflammatories, extra vitamins, etc at all times, so that only the human body could be the resource? No fancy food supplements either?


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    #106
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    velo.2010 wrote:
    The problem arises whereby some condition is 'exercise induced'. If someone starts to have physical problems as a result of high level competition and needs medical intervention to continue to compete (such as TUE for exercise induced asthma) then I think that's simply hard luck regarding your genetics. A sort of 'survival of the fittest' should be the standard for high level sport. How that can be demarcated, I don't know.
    Salbutamol no longer requires a TUE up to a certain dose. WADA have accepted this treatment for exercise induced asthma isn't performance enhancing, or doesn't have enough effect below that concentration to be bothered about.

    The WADA code/ anti doping doesn't just apply to elite level. You might be unlikely to be pulled, but anyone in sanctioned competition in a sports council affiliated organisation could be dope tested.

    So anyone with asthma wouldn't be allowed to compete?


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    #107
    ford2600
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    nak wrote: »
    I don't think there's any grey area in the case of insulin dependant diabetes, you either have it or you don't.

    Is there anyone on pro tour competing with either type 1/2 diabetes?

    I know Steve Redgrave won his fifth medal with Type 2 just wasn't aware of any current top riders with it.

    Controlling your blood sugar for Olympic rowing, as tough as it is, would be a cake walk (unintentional pun I swear) compared to 5hrs mountain stage on a Grand Tour with healthy (and probably many doped athletes).


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    #108
    nak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Is there anyone on pro tour competing with either type 1/2 diabetes?

    I know Steve Redgrave won his fifth medal with Type 2 just wasn't aware of any current top riders with it.

    Controlling your blood sugar for Olympic rowing, as tough as it is, would be a cake walk (unintentional pun I swear) compared to 5hrs mountain stage on a Grand Tour with healthy (and probably many doped athletes).

    I don't know. Team Novo Nordisk have set themselves the goal of getting a diabetic team in the TdF by 2021 (I think).


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    #109
    Eamonnator
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    ford2600 wrote: »
    Is there anyone on pro tour competing with either type 1/2 diabetes?.

    http://www.teamnovonordisk.com/

    This team race at a fairly high level, Pro Continental.


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    #110
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Chuchote wrote: »
    This seems crazy, since it's assuming that everyone's at the same level of fitness. It would make sense if there were no medicine whatsoever, perhaps… would you think, for instance, that all athletes should be precluded from taking any other medications - aspirin and paracetamol, anti-inflammatories, extra vitamins, etc at all times, so that only the human body could be the resource? No fancy food supplements either?

    Any drug on the list should be banned. If you have a flu and have to compete the next day then you compete with the flu and not with cough mixture or paracetamol.


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    #111
    DanDublin1982
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭DanDublin1982


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Any drug on the list should be banned. If you have a flu and have to compete the next day then you compete with the flu and not with cough mixture or paracetamol.

    Why such a hardline stance? There wouldn't be many rolling into Paris if they weren't allowed take a painkiller or two.


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    #112
    nak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Any drug on the list should be banned. If you have a flu and have to compete the next day then you compete with the flu and not with cough mixture or paracetamol.

    Paracetamol and most cough mixtures aren't on the list. If you had the flu you wouldn't get very far in a bike race.


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    #113
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    DanDublin1982 wrote: »
    Why such a hardline stance? There wouldn't be many rolling into Paris if they weren't allowed take a painkiller or two.


    There shouldn't be. Its an impossibly tough race. But what we are seeing is increasing speeds, more climbing and more finishers. We are fostering and encouraging a secret form of cheating where its more of an advantage to be "sick" than healthy.


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    #114
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Any drug on the list should be banned. If you have a flu and have to compete the next day then you compete with the flu and not with cough mixture or paracetamol.

    But wasn't the point of the enhancer drugs, up till recently anyway, that you took them to help you train, then stopped a few weeks before the race. So you'd ruined your health, but they helped you to win, and didn't show up in your body? So surely if you're going to be purist, you'd have to ban all drugs at all times.


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    #115
    DanDublin1982
    Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭DanDublin1982


    gordongekko wrote: »
    There shouldn't be. Its an impossibly tough race. But what we are seeing is increasing speeds, more climbing and more finishers. We are fostering and encouraging a secret form of cheating where its more of an advantage to be "sick" than healthy.

    Surely you dont even watch sport. If this is how you feel how could you ppssobly get any enjoyment from it?


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    #116
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Salbutamol no longer requires a TUE up to a certain dose. WADA have accepted this treatment for exercise induced asthma isn't performance enhancing, or doesn't have enough effect below that concentration to be bothered about


    The issue is salbutamol, corticosteroids and other products being used for fat burning in elite athletes. Asthma is the cover.


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    #117
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    DanDublin1982 wrote: »
    Surely you dont even watch sport. If this is how you feel how could you ppssobly get any enjoyment from it?

    Why wouldn't I enjoy it. I take it for what it is.


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    #118
    nak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    The issue is salbutamol, corticosteroids and other products being used for fat burning in elite athletes. Asthma is the cover.

    Salbutamol isn't a fat burner, well certainly not in my case. I'm another one with exercise induced asthma from cycling.


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    #119
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    The only Diabetic i am aware of who raced at (male) GT level was a French rider from the 80's era Dominic Garde, a teammate of Laurent Fignon at System U. He was a very decent rider who from memory once managed 19th in the TDF.


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    #120
    fat bloke
    Registered Users Posts: 5,861 ✭✭✭fat bloke


    I go cycling cos it improves and maintains my health. I'm not sure if I found out it was the cause of an induced illness that I would continue to cycle :confused:


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    #121
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Thinking about this. When I was a youngun I was like a little spring. If it were nowadays I have no doubt I would have been spotted and trained in gymnastics or athletics. I could jump my own height, I was fearless of heights, I could outrun everyone I knew, I spent most of my time standing on my hands or doing cartwheels or cycling.

    But I was sick a lot - measles five times, between German and Allied; bronchial pneumonia a couple of times; mumps; whooping cough; rheumatic fever. It wasn't till I was 15 that I was diagnosed with asthma. By that time I'd already spent six years on daily penicillin.

    If there hadn't been antibiotics (and if people hadn't developed near-immunities to antibiotics due to their constant use on meat, eggs and milk animals) I'd have been dead. But under the rules suggested here, I certainly wouldn't have been allowed to compete.

    The rules suggested are kind of eugenicist, it seems to me; only the Perfect Man, without any flaw to his native health, can be entitled to compete. If you have to take medicine for asthma or epilepsy or diabetes or depression or any of the horrors that haunt our bodies, you're barred.


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