Wiggins/Froome Asthma

odyssey06

As someone with hayfever, what stands out to me is that there are about a dozen standard hayfever remedies out there that don't involve needles... there are a plethora of different nasal sprays and pills that are on their third generation ... including nasal spray corticosteroids that don't affect the rest of the body... they might still need TUEs but I can't see anyone getting 'additional' benefits from them.

Jawgap

ahlookit wrote: »

He seems to be going lighter on Froome as he came clean on the second TUE once the first became known.

And now Mo Farah (amongst others) TUE details have been released by the Bears.

And, as coincidence has it, Mo needed triamcinolone too. Those professional sportspeople are surprisingly unhealthy.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/19/mo-farah-named-fancy-bears-leak

Well they certainly seem to become remarkably unhealthy before major competitions - maybe its their nerves :rolleyes:

Quite disappointed by all this - I thought when Brailsford and Sky were spouting on about their approach to doping and running a clean team they meant they'd be complying with the spirit of the rules, not just the letter of them......now it seems they're 'happy' just to meet the minimum legal requirements. I suppose that's a 'marginal gain' of sorts.

I wonder if any of this - if it rumbles on long enough and nothing more serious emerges - will lead Sky to consider their involvement and sponsorship of the team. I doubt they'll want any of this damaging the brand.

RobFowl

fishfoodie wrote: »

Indeed !!

This incident stank like week old fish at the time; & it hasn't gotten any better..

From the Article at the time:


And less we forget, this was the Sky team for whom Cooksons son Ollie was working for.

I wouldnt be concerned about Cooksons son working there as he was in a fairly menial role. What would concern me was that prior to getting UCI top job Cookson was on the BC appointed executive board of the Sky team ...

pelevin

Telegraph have a couple of strong pieces on this with David Millar now weighing in.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/19/drugs-used-by-sir-bradley-wiggins-should-be-banned-says-david-mi/

Millar told The Telegraph that Kenacort, one of the trade names for triamcinolone, was the “most potent” drug he used in his career, describing it as a huge performance enhancer and a dangerous one because of its “powerful, destructive” side effects.
“As I said in my book [Racing Through The Dark], I took EPO and testosterone patches, and they obviously produce huge differences in your blood and you felt at your top level … Kenacort, though, was the only one you took and three days later you looked different.

“I remember it was one of the reasons I took sleeping pills because Kenacort put you on this weird high. It’s quite scary because it’s catabolic so it’s eating into you. It felt destructive. It felt powerful.”
“You would do all the training but my weight would stick,” he said. “But if I took Kenacort, 1.5-2kgs would drop off in like a week. And not only would the weight drop off I would feel stronger.

"And if we’re suffering from that serious an issue, we shouldn’t be racing. I don’t know how a doctor could prescribe it [before a race]. I can’t fathom it.”

greenspurs

If the Tue's aren't performance enhancing, why then, are the kept 'secret' and private ?
Why do (most of them) come to light after hackers find them?

Macy0161

greenspurs wrote: »

If the Tue's aren't performance enhancing, why then, are the kept 'secret' and private ?
Why do (most of them) come to light after hackers find them?

The logic is because they're based on medical need, and a persons medical record should be private.

It's another aspect of privacy that I think elite sportspeople are going to have to face into giving up.

MPFGLB

Would love ot know how mnay at SKY have used or use that Kenacort out of competetion ...alot of them seem to be able to drop alot of weight fast

Course no TUE needed for out of competetion usage

Carawaystick

MPFGLB wrote: »

Would love ot know how mnay at SKY have used or use that Kenacort out of competetion ...alot of them seem to be able to drop alot of weight fast

Course no TUE needed for out of competetion usage

Especially if you don't compete much and train on a volcano off the coast of Africa...

MPFGLB

Carawaystick wrote: »

Especially if you don't compete much and train on a volcano off the coast of Africa...

But sure it doesn't matter even if you trained outsie UCI headquateers ...these substances are not banned out of competetion (without a TUE) ...or so I am led to believe ..

I am not sure what all the fuss is about with SKY and this topic

I mean did people really think marginal gains was just pineapple juice and a camper van

SKY did give a big hint

And whether we like it or not they have abided by the rules

pelevin

On that front Geraint Thomas made a very dramatic transformation last year. True that one wouldn't need a TUE to take a banned substance like that out of competition?

cloonamnaman

'I am not sure what all the fuss is about with SKY and this topic'

I for one am shocked by the implications of TUE's to cover actual PED use, especially by anyone winning major races. I have believed that the teams and individuals cited were not guilty of any form of cheating, which those implications clearly involve.
From what I remember a tweet from Nicholas Roche, several weeks ago, also stated his alarm at the problem/sheer number of TUE's he became aware of.

Carawaystick

MPFGLB wrote: »

But sure it doesn't matter even if you trained outsie UCI headquateers ...these substances are not banned out of competetion (without a TUE) ...or so I am led to believe ..

I am not sure what all the fuss is about with SKY and this topic

Lance armstrong only turned up fot the tour and never failed a drugs test (that wasn't covered up)

MPFGLB wrote: »

And whether we like it or not they have abided by the rules

apart from
rule 1.2.109 The rider may cross the finish line on foot, provided that has his bicycle with him

godtabh

Carawaystick wrote: »

Lance armstrong only turned up fot the tour and never failed a drugs test (that wasn't covered up)



apart from
rule 1.2.109 The rider may cross the finish line on foot, provided that has his bicycle with him

Froome didnt cross the finish line on foot. He just ran for a bit (despite having chronic asthma)

Macy0161

Carawaystick wrote:

apart from rule 1.2.109 The rider may cross the finish line on foot, provided that has his bicycle with him

Thought it was rule 12.12.14 that he broke, that you must cover the entire distance with your bike?

happytramp

MPFGLB wrote: »

I am not sure what all the fuss is about with SKY and this topic

Really? It's highly possible they were giving their riders unnecessary injections in order to enhance their performances..

I'd be very curious to see if Rodgers or Porte or any of Wiggins' other doms "urgently needed" Cortisone Injections just before the start of a GT.

dastardly00

Newstalk Off the Ball were chatting to Ross Tucker on the show this evening about TUEs.

Very interesting and well worth a listen.

https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/778346539160920064

CramCycle

velo.2010 wrote: »

The problem arises whereby some condition is 'exercise induced'. If someone starts to have physical problems as a result of high level competition and needs medical intervention to continue to compete (such as TUE for exercise induced asthma) then I think that's simply hard luck regarding your genetics. A sort of 'survival of the fittest' should be the standard for high level sport. How that can be demarcated, I don't know.

I can agree with this, suppose it is hard to qualify if the sport caused it or if it was already there, just unnoticed.

Eamonnator wrote: »

Suppose, there are twins, same height, same weight, same training regime, same sex, everything the same, except one has diabetes, the other doesn't.
Is there any way, that taking insulin will make the diabetic twin a better performing cyclist than the non diabetic sibling?

Very unlikely, if in fact nigh on impossible unless the Diabetic was also taking other substances. People only think of T1DM as Insulin gone, rather than the huge hormone issue that it is. We don't get a normal Glucagon response, the benefits from a "doping" point of view do not apply to a typical T1DM because their body cannot respond in the same way. If I were to attempt to dope using my insulin, it would in fact be slightly less useful than a healthy athlete just training harder. I would still have to train harder to see any benefit but I would also have to alter my diet and truth be told, due to the glucagon issue, I would probably have to lower my insulin dosage dramatically if I did start training harder. TL:DR, there is no doping benefit to a T1DM taking more than the necessary insulin, in fact, it could kill them or just make them sh*tter.

RobFowl wrote: »

The only Diabetic i am aware of who raced at (male) GT level was a French rider from the 80's era Dominic Garde, a teammate of Laurent Fignon at System U. He was a very decent rider who from memory once managed 19th in the TDF.

TNN are quite decent at their level and are aiming for a GT invitation by 2021 (I think), not sure if they will get it, but two of Irelands best riders are T1DM (that I can think off). Every single one of them will tell you that to get to that level, Insulin is reduced to a level that is needed to barely survive. It in fact decreases quite dramatically.

gordongekko wrote: »

Thats exactly the point. Either the diabetic just naturally cant compete at the top level or the drug should be available to all. What we have now is top sportspeople enhancing their illness to gain an unfair advantage. The system now promotes ill people to the disadvantage of healthy people.

T1DM though is fairly easily diagnosable. Do a C peptide test. Job done. I have been a T1DM for 30 years, I still have to get a TUE every year if I compete in any international events, and a postdated TUE if tested at a national event, you know, in case I was cured.

Chuchote wrote: »

Apparently some drugs are banned in some sports and not in others; alcohol is banned in motorcycling, archery, karate air sports, powerboating and automobile sports. Odd that it's banned in motorcycling but not in cycling. And in karate but not in other kill-'em sports.

I am so getting tanked up before my next road race (joke)

ahlookit wrote: »

And now Mo Farah (amongst others) TUE details have been released by the Bears.

Nothing to do with the thread in general, but I know people who have competed against Farah, when he was younger and when he was a little bit older. I dislike him alot.

MPFGLB

happytramp wrote: »

Really? It's highly possible they were giving their riders unnecessary injections in order to enhance their performances..

I'd be very curious to see if Rodgers or Porte or any of Wiggins' other doms "urgently needed" Cortisone Injections just before the start of a GT.

My point when i said all the fuss about SKY and this topic is that this is not a revelation ...what else is meant by marginal gains ??

And if SKY are up to it then you can bet your bottom dollor so are others

I am merely surprised at the surprise that is all...I am not condoning anything
Didn't Simon Yates forget to get the TUE ..that is all

And Diego Ulissi ...he was availing of such substances ...without a TUE

CramCycle

MPFGLB wrote: »

I am merely surprised at the surprise that is all...I am not condoning anything
Didn't Simon Yates forget to get the TUE ..that is all

I don't think there is any surprise though, just annoyance. This has been known for ages, but it was continuously denied. People who claimed to be reporters, towed the party line, even people inside the camp could not keep the story straight. The one guy who seemed to be unintentionally honest was let go from the team.

MPFGLB

My issue is out of competition corticosteroids use and the fast weight loss

This is legal and I am sure has a given an unfair advatnage to some riders over others in the weight loss and power thing which is a key issue for the larger rider and is major when trying to wina Grand Tour

And as with blood doping , etc there will be some who benefit more than others as not all will gain the same level of advantage...

Rambling Man

MPFGLB wrote: »

My issue is out of competition corticosteroids use and the fast weight loss

This is legal and I am sure has a given an unfair advatnage to some riders over others in the weight loss and power thing which is a key issue for the larger rider and is major when trying to wina Grand Tour

And as with blood doping , etc there will be some who benefit more than others as not all will gain the same level of advantage...[/quote

Rambling Man

Brad, you're a sham.

greenspurs

MPFGLB wrote: »

My issue is out of competition corticosteroids use and the fast weight loss

This is legal and I am sure has a given an unfair advatnage to some riders over others in the weight loss and power thing which is a key issue for the larger rider and is major when trying to wina Grand Tour

Maybe carlos betancur should use Cortico's .......:P

irishrover99

I haven't been watching much cycling since the Vuelta but has Kirby or the other Eurosport commentators had their say on this.
I doubt Kirby will be in a hurry to talk about it.
They should have learned from Phil Liggets mistake when he painted his colours to Lance and it all backfired on him and he admitted that himself.

MPFGLB

Rambling Man wrote: »

Brad, you're a sham.

But its not just Brad now is it ?

irishrover99 wrote: »

I haven't been watching much cycling since the Vuelta but has Kirby or the other Eurosport commentators had their say on this.
I doubt Kirby will be in a hurry to talk about it.
They should have learned from Phil Liggets mistake when he painted his colours to Lance and it all backfired on him and he admitted that himself.

Kirby is a moron , probably say its all legal so nothing to see here

Take Wiggins..unless he cn get down to 65-67 Kilos and keeps his power he is not wining a Tour de France

greenspurs wrote: »

Maybe carlos betancur should use Cortico's .......:P

Nicolas Roche almost finds it impossible toi lose the weight because of his built ..he has said so previously

At 69 to 70 kilos he can get soemwhere in top 15-20 of a GT ...well he did .
At 66-67 he has gotten top 5... In his 1st Tour de Frocme he was 21st , 13th in his 2nd (where were Wiggins & Froomei n their 1st/2nd GTs when they were not uber skinny )
Given Roche's size in this years Giro and last years Tour de France looks like he not availing of speedy weight loss aids

godtabh

MPFGLB wrote: »

Nicolas Roche almost finds it impossible toi lose the weight because of his built ..he has said so previously

At 69 to 70 kilos he can get soemwhere in top 15-20 of a GT ...well he did .
At 66-67 he has gotten top 5... In his 1st Tour de Frocme he was 21st , 13th in his 2nd (where were Wiggins & Froomei n their 1st/2nd GTs when they were not uber skinny )
Given Roche's size in this years Giro and last years Tour de France looks like he not availing of speedy weight loss aids

This isnt dishing Roche but I've heard interviews with him before that his sweet tooth can let him down. Rumor has it he likes his mars bars. I think thats part of the reason why he has left sky. Looking from the outside in he appears to be a rider that hasnt been included in the TUE program.

PS were you locked writing that?

ford2600

godtabh wrote: »

This isnt dishing Roche but I've heard interviews with him before that his sweet tooth can let him down. Rumor has it he likes his mars bars. I think thats part of the reason why he has left sky. Looking from the outside in he appears to be a rider that hasnt been included in the TUE program.

PS were you looked writing that?

I'd imagine at 5% bf and training at GT level while trying to be a strong at possible there is a bit more to it than a "sweet tooth".

At super low levels of body fat the food reward signaling for fat, sugar, salt, starch is in overdrive( a mars bar like most junk foods will have all those).

If only there was something you could take to drop the weight without the body trying to defend against the weight loss....

MPFGLB

godtabh wrote: »

This isnt dishing Roche but I've heard interviews with him before that his sweet tooth can let him down. Rumor has it he likes his mars bars. I think thats part of the reason why he has left sky. Looking from the outside in he appears to be a rider that hasnt been included in the TUE program.

PS were you looked writing that?

Em what ?


It was the Dutch ex Tinkoff rider that said on TV that during the 2014 season Nico was eating Mars bars in his room..Guess he was unhappy there with Tinkov and turned to the sugar. No wonde so many riders have eating disorders

Given what I heard Roche say on his troubles on losing weight at SKY would seem he hasn't been on the corticosteroids...but of course not 100% sure

And only a few weeks ago he seemed uneasy with the TUE system in his tweets ...

https://twitter.com/nicholasroche/status/772364442109612032

https://twitter.com/nicholasroche/status/772364052030980096

nak

Betancur was given a hard time for being "fat", Roche has had plenty of comments made about his weight too. Very skewed body image in professional cycling compared to the general population.

One of the IAM riders wrote a piece about what happened when his team bought mini magnums during the Vuelta - a crisis meeting was held. This was the day before they won a stage so obviously wasn't the disaster the team staff thought it would be.

godtabh

MPFGLB wrote: »

Em what ?

Stupid auto correct.