Wiggins/Froome Asthma

RobFowl

Roche is hardly fat or even close, mega skinny and low low body fat not suitable for all and esp in womens cycling pushed many towards eating disorders.
The great Leonitel Van Moorsel an obvious example.
Elite sports people are not nessecaily the most healthy in general terms and some simply perform better at a higher weight.
Look at G Thomas for example, dropped lots of weight and not better if not worse at TDF this year.
Lay of Nico .....

MPFGLB

Who is laying into Nico ? ..just saying how hard it is for him ro get down to 67kg where he can be up there with the best riders

And therefore how much of a disadvantage it is for riders like him to do well against others who have the advantage of taking suspect substances to lose weight...its highlighting the performacne advantage of these practices if anything

Thomas lost the weight for 2015 Tour and did very well ....but of course hard to keep weight low as seen in 2016 Tour especially over a period of months from Paris Nice onwards .....
But for climbing purposes Thomas was mucj better at the lower weight

So there is a PED element to corticosteroids when they allow rapid weight loss and maintenanc of power

odyssey06

Sir Bradley Wiggins's last-resort drug was 'utterly bonkers’, say medical experts
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/

- Injected triamcinolone is a last resort in terms of treatment, with potential side effects including “cataracts, high blood pressure, diabetes, bone-thinning and Achilles tendon ruptures”.
- “no scientific reason” why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing. “An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,” said Lipworth, who sits on the WHO guidelines committee ARIA. “The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone. So the anaobolic effect of the testosterone probably counteracted the triamcinolone."

pelevin

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sir Bradley Wiggins's last-resort drug was 'utterly bonkers’, say medical experts
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/20/sir-bradley-wigginss-last-resort-drug-was-utterly-bonkers-say-me/

- Injected triamcinolone is a last resort in terms of treatment, with potential side effects including “cataracts, high blood pressure, diabetes, bone-thinning and Achilles tendon ruptures”.
- “no scientific reason” why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing. “An anabolic steroid like testosterone puts on muscle mass but this is a catabolic steroid which breaks down muscle,” said Lipworth, who sits on the WHO guidelines committee ARIA. “The benefits to David Millar were probably the fact that he was taking EPO and testosterone at the same time as he was using triamcinolone. So the anaobolic effect of the testosterone probably counteracted the triamcinolone."

As regards “no scientific reason” why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing' I think scientists or doctors should perhaps be a bit more humble about stating such things with such certainty. On the most simple level, if you weigh less and you're going up mountains fighting gravity, that is a scientific reason it would be performance enhancing. To what degree it may be hurting your muscular power obviously isn't a simple question of mathematics:-

Triamcinolone use inducing weight loss plus muscle loss = ?

or

weight loss plus muscle loss counteracted by unknown substance use like EPO = ?

And if someone does take this kind of substance & wins a Tour de France, like Wiggins, it certainly suggests they haven't hurt their power output/body mass ratio too much. I've seen scientists stating EPO isn't a performance enhancer. The times of people going up mountains suggest it is.

Whatever the truth is though, it seems pretty much a given from various medics that this was far from within the framework of proper medical use - particularly given they were applying for it in advance of & not in response to some very heavy flare-up that Wiggins suffered. And of course this was all done very much in contradiction to Sky & Wiggins statements of how they behave. And as Millar said, if it was that bad as to require something so heavy, how could they justify their athlete then performing in a crazy hard race? That reflects the attitude by the Sky hierarchy to someone under their care also, including very much of course their doctor - that they are little more than a guinea-pig given such "bonkers" treatment, & to be used towards a result.

That Brailsford won't even talk to David Walsh about it all is in itself totally damning imo. What a change from the previous Open All Doors stuff. I don't honestly see any qualifying thing in Sky's & Wiggins' favour here. I also think they have harmed cycling in an era where perhaps thanks to teams like Garmin & others, there was a real movement towards a higher ethics of behaviour. This because given human nature, if someone takes a holier than thou very righteous stance, then they become a target of attention far more than others. It's just a natural human reaction to how we respond to things like suspected or perceived hypocrisy. Not saying how perfect they've been but Garmin by comparison, or also say Giant, seemed to me far less self-righteous the way they've gone about things - not looking to set themselves apart from the rest & coming out with hypocritical garbage like "We won't join the MPCC as we are going to police ourselves with even higher standards, & we don't want to be associated with teams of lesser values."

And so there's been an obsession with Sky's behaviour rather than everyone's behaviour, which would have been the case much more perhaps otherwise. Anyway, that's enough for now.

terrydel

pelevin wrote: »

As regards “no scientific reason” why a drug like triamcinolone would be performance-enhancing' I think scientists or doctors should perhaps be a bit more humble about stating such things with such certainty. On the most simple level, if you weigh less and you're going up mountains fighting gravity, that is a scientific reason it would be performance enhancing. To what degree it may be hurting your muscular power obviously isn't a simple question of mathematics:-

Triamcinolone use = weight loss plus muscle loss = ?

or

weight loss plus muscle loss counteracted by unknown substance use like EPO = ?

And if someone does take this kind of substance & wins a Tour de France, like Wiggins, it certainly suggests they haven't hurt their power output/body mass ratio too much. I've seen scientists stating EPO isn't a performance enhancer. The times of people going up mountains suggest it is.

Whatever the truth is though, it seems pretty much a given from various medics that this was far from within the framework of proper medical use - particularly given they were applying for it in advance of & not in response to some very heavy flare-up that Wiggins suffered. And of course this was all done very much in contradiction to Sky & Wiggins statements of how they behave. And as Millar said, if it was that bad as to justify something so heavy, how could they justify their athlete then performing in a crazy hard race? That reflects the attitude by the Sky hierarchy to someone under their care also, including very much of course their doctor - that they are little more than a guinea-pig given such "bonkers" treatment, & to be used towards a result.

That Brailsford won't even talk to David Walsh about it all is in itself totally damning imo. What a change from the previous Open All Doors stuff. I don't honestly see any qualifying thing in Sky's & Wiggins' favour here. I also think they have harmed cycling in an era where perhaps thanks to teams like Garmin & others, there was a real movement towards a higher ethics of behaviour. This because given human nature, if someone takes a holier than thou very righteous stance, then they become a target of attention far more than others. It's just a natural human reaction to how we respond to things like suspected or perceived hypocrisy. Not saying how perfect they've been but Garmin by comparison, or also say Giant, seemed to me far less self-righteous the way they've gone about things - not looking to set themselves apart from the rest & coming out with hypocritical garbage like "We won't join the MPCC as we are going to police ourselves with even higher standards."

And so there's been an obsession with Sky's behaviour rather than everyone's behaviour, which would have been the case much more perhaps otherwise. Anyway, that's enough for now.

Great post.
Sky epitomise modern corporate culture for me, in that they are all spin and bull****, style over substance.
Can't stand them, haven't liked them since the beginning and this episode is the final nail for me. I'm not an expert on this subject, but for me they are bang to rights here.
Wiggins is for me a complete fraud, an image conscious wanker and spoofer. Wants to have his cake and eat it. Mr anti establishment my arse!
I cannot conceive how anyone can defend them over this issue.
Clearly this stuff was taken to improve performance, that seems undeniable to me. And they worked the system (tue's) to do it.
Cheats - plain and simple.

MPFGLB

http://www.todayfm.com/player/podcasts/The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper/The_Last_Word_with_Matt_Cooper/60662/0/paul_kimmage_on_wiggins_gaa__rooney

DKmac

Perhaps the biggest thing to come from all this is the lack of any comment from other pro-riders. Not that they are compelled to do so but you'd imagine maybe one or two would be fairly disappointed that the guys you are racing against are bending the rules. Especially if you are trying to do the right thing and race uber-clean (by that I mean both by the letter of the law and ethically). Perhaps there's a disincentive to speaking out and so "Spitting in the Soup" is still very much a thing in the pro-peloton. Or perhaps the most common everyday opinion "Sure they're all at it!" isn't too far from the truth of the matter. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

Perhaps,perhaps,perhaps.......

Rambling Man

DKmac wrote: »

Perhaps the biggest thing to come from all this is the lack of any comment from other pro-riders. Not that they are compelled to do so but you'd imagine maybe one or two would be fairly disappointed that the guys you are racing against are bending the rules. Especially if you are trying to do the right thing and race uber-clean (by that I mean both by the letter of the law and ethically). Perhaps there's a disincentive to speaking out and so "Spitting in the Soup" is still very much a thing in the pro-peloton. Or perhaps the most common everyday opinion "Sure they're all at it!" isn't too far from the truth of the matter. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

Perhaps,perhaps,perhaps.......

That lad O'Mearta is doing all the talking

velo.2010

So, today we learn that Cancellara had an injection of corticosteroids before the 2011 Vuelta. Some more corticosteroids in 2013, though granted, it was after his tremendous spring campaign.

Jacob Fulgsang had a time unlimited exemption to use the same **** as Wiggins (triamcinolone) during the Rio games - where he finished second of course.

Itziger

velo.2010 wrote: »

So, today we learn that Cancellara had an injection of corticosteroids before the 2011 Vuelta. Some more corticosteroids in 2013, though granted, it was after his tremendous spring campaign.

Jacob Fulgsang had a time unlimited exemption to use the same **** as Wiggins (triamcinolone) during the Rio games - where he finished second of course.

Drug??

ahlookit

Wiggins to appear on Andrew Marr show on Sunday morning

Sir Bradley Wiggins will discuss his decision to take triamcinolone before three of the biggest races of his career on the Andrew Marr Show on Sunday morning.

Wiggins's decision to apply for therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) to take the corticosteroid, which is banned in-competition without a TUE, has been under huge scrutiny since the five-time Olympic champion’s medical records were leaked last week by the hackers group calling themselves the Fancy Bears.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2016/09/23/sir-bradley-wiggins-to-discuss-furore-over-tue-on-andrew-marr-sh/


Looks like its a segment they have already recorded. And neither Wiggins or Marr appear too happy in the pics

https://twitter.com/RichieMcCormack/status/779269831275274240


https://twitter.com/RobBurl/status/779268320520507393

velo.2010

ahlookit wrote: »

Wiggins to appear on Andrew Marr show on Sunday morning

That's clever by Wiggo and his PR people. Have an interview that will be broadcast/buried away in the Sunday morning slot with a guy who is probably not versed in the nuances of the whole story to hold him to proper account.

MPFGLB

In fairness Adnew Marr is smart and remember Oprah got more out of Armstrong than most


Fuglsang eh? and his silver medal

Who wouldn't want a TUE

terrydel

velo.2010 wrote: »

That's clever by Wiggo and his PR people. Have an interview that will be broadcast/buried away in the Sunday morning slot with a guy who is probably not versed in the nuances of the whole story to hold him to proper account.

Spot on, stage managed ****e.
God I am ****ing so sick of everything being spin, spin, spin in every walk of life these days.
Are there any honest people left? It take a real man to own up and admit their wrongs. Pretty much everyone in the public eye these days is just a whining little pussy who tries to spin their way out of every adverse situation.

terrydel

MPFGLB wrote: »

In fairness Adnew Marr is smart and remember Oprah got more out of Armstrong than most


Fuglsang eh? and his silver medal

Who wouldn't want a TUE

That's cos Armstrong had already decided to (finally) spill the beans.
The fraud that is Mr Mod Wiggins, has not.

velo.2010

MPFGLB wrote: »

In fairness Adnew Marr is smart and remember Oprah got more out of Armstrong than most

Clever guy indeed, but I reckon this fell on his lap all of a sudden with little time to brush up on TUE's, Corticosteroids and Sir Brad's career. Oprah had time to prepare and didn't have to worry about grilling Westminster MP's too!

Lets see...

ahlookit

velo.2010 wrote: »

Clever guy indeed, but I reckon this fell on his lap all of a sudden with little time to brush up on TUE's, Corticosteroids and Sir Brad's career. Oprah had time to prepare and didn't have to worry about grilling Westminster MP's too!

Lets see...

Yeah, that would be the worry alright. A few sports writers on twitter a bit miffed that Wiggins pulled out of interviews with them, then goes on a (normally) political show instead. We shall see on Sunday morning.

Lumen

Popcorn on Sunday morning! Ah go on then.

Or maybe drinking games. Key phrases?

Pudsy33

Lumen wrote: »

Popcorn on Sunday morning! Ah go on then.

Or maybe drinking games. Key phrases?

"I don't want to let my family down"

Lumen

"Marginal gains"
"Level playing field"
"Cycling is hard"

Macy0161

How many points for "never failed a test"?

Pudsy33

Lumen wrote: »

"Marginal gains"
"Level playing field"
"Cycling is hard"

"The doctor recommended it"

Inquitus

To be honest I think this will all blow over, end of the day, even if it's ethically dodgy it was legal and Joe Public doesn't get into the minutiae of it all like we do. I see Cummings had nothing dodgy in his TUE's simply a Salbutamol inhaler.

ahlookit

"did nothing against the rules"

gordongekko

The tue system is very robust and I've had asthma all my life

lescol

Inquitus wrote: »

To be honest I think this will all blow over, end of the day, even if it's ethically dodgy it was legal and Joe Public doesn't get into the minutiae of it all like we do.

Yes, it will all blow over, what choice is there? Kenalog is a legitimate treatment for asthma and allergies ( http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/a6953/kenalog-intra-articular-intramuscular-injection-triamcinolone/ 1st on the list). As a hayfever sufferer I'm aware of most treatments, I've probably tried most of them, just not Kenalog40, every antihistamine I've tried has put me to sleep, not a lot of help during sport, currently I manage with nasal spray and eyedrops which I have to take with me on summer rides, impractical during races. Bradley Wiggins will have the excuse that riding in France at that time of year marred his potential due to the adverse effects of allergies and the best doctors came up with the injection as a last resort solution.

irishrover99

velo.2010 wrote: »

That's clever by Wiggo and his PR people. Have an interview that will be broadcast/buried away in the Sunday morning slot with a guy who is probably not versed in the nuances of the whole story to hold him to proper account.

That's one of the biggest weekend shows on the Beeb and I like Andrew Marr and he usually is not afraid to ask that question

fishfoodie

irishrover99 wrote: »

That's one of the biggest weekend shows on the Beeb and I like Andrew Marr and he usually is not afraid to ask that question

Marr is also used to Politcos who are well versed in how to not answer a direct question, & Wiggins is a bit of a loose cannon, & would be much easier to knock off balance than most.

Its just a pity that this was recorded well ahead of time; live would have been very entertaining, but I suppose the handlers would never have allowed that :rolleyes:

pelevin

In terms of lasting effect, I think it depends on what one means by "it'll all blow over." It will pass in the sense that there cannot be any sanction resulting, and much of the British general public at least will be convinced by more or less any explanation. However I think it will have a lasting impact for the more aware in terms of Wiggins' standing, that it has certainly damaged him considerably. And given he's retiring very soon, the more potent effect is on Brailsford & Sky's reputation which has imo taken a huge hit. This is surely unarguable with people like David Walsh now of a very different opinion regarding Brailsford's honesty than he was a week or so ago. Strong articles in things like CyclingNews have been of a very different flavour than ones perviously - how the pursuit of glory cost them their idealism being one by Daniel Benson(?). With for instance, in the wake of other major UK papers, The Guardian now having moved to getting tough also, the story has escalated in the British media itself also far beyond the point of containment Wiggins & Brailsford might have hoped for - Wiggins' rep first saying there was nothing new here, Brailsford saying nothing at all hoping silence the best option in giving no fuel to the fire. I think it's clear they have lost a huge amount of their ethical standing in the cycling world, & this will very much not simply blow over - regardless of whether anyone thinks that fair or not.

On the side of that Sky idealism, one mantra I've seen repeated a fair bit of late was how Brailsford & SKy wished to push right up to the point of legality but not cross that point - this being supposedly the point of the stripe on their kit. Tobh that sounds very far from idealism in the first place! Your ethics down to what's allowed rather than having to bother yourself with what's right - which was more the stance of the MPCC. That might not be how Brailsford intended that to come across, maybe one could argue it's a poor expression of the inner feeling but really, "I'll push as far as I can get away with within the parameters of the law" - that's not got a whole lot to do with a strong inner ethics imo!

MPFGLB

Newsnight on Wiggins


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07wgh4v/newsnight-23092016