Presenting data as Dublin vs Non-Dublin (rental market)

KeyCode

I'm absolutely baffled as to why we keep hearing media reports that give details for Dublin and then "Non Dublin". The latter is completely pointless information.

There has been huge rental growth in Cork and fairly high growth in the other cities but someone seems to think it's appropriate to report on a figure that includes everything from the most high demand parts of Cork to the most remote parts of Leitrim!

What's the point in giving an average figure like that? Without a breakdown of the figures for the cities it is completely useless.

Morning Ireland was reporting what I think was 10% growth in the non-Dublin rental market and didn't even attempt to drill down to get even a figure for Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.
The figures for the areas in Dublin's commuter belt would be highly useful too. Kildare etc etc

newacc2015

KeyCode wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled as to why we keep hearing media reports that give details for Dublin and then "Non Dublin". The latter is completely pointless information.

There has been huge rental growth in Cork and fairly high growth in the other cities but someone seems to think it's appropriate to report on a figure that includes everything from the most high demand parts of Cork to the most remote parts of Leitrim!

What's the point in giving an average figure like that? Without a breakdown of the figures for the cities it is completely useless.

Morning Ireland was reporting what I think was 10% growth in the non-Dublin rental market and didn't even attempt to drill down to get even a figure for Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.
The figures for the areas in Dublin's commuter belt would be highly useful too. Kildare etc etc

Im not trying to be sarcastic but what people outside of Dublin fail to realise is that Dublin is an economic powerhouse. It is a litmus test of the economy, as Dublin nearly makes up 50% of our GDP which is insane. This means that half our economic growth is produced in that tiny county that is Dublin. It is hard for the media to be excited about the strength of towns and cities outside of Dublin that are reliant on a massive American employer or some state sponsored body like an IT for a majority of their employment

What the media dont like to report is that a lot of the country is flat lining. Some of the midlands have been in a recession since around 2003. Parts of the south east arent doing great either.

Here is an amazing fact I heard this week. Dublin's population is so big, that is is bigger than the next 90 other towns and cities ranked by population in Ireland combined. Bar many Luxembourg or Singapore, Ireland has so much of the population in a tiny area, that is extremely rare. Dublin is also where a majority of REIT owned housing in Ireland is ie the massive funds who own vast amounts of houses and apartments in the City.

When Dublin has nearly half of Ireland population and economy, cant see why parts of the country with no economic future and declining populations are just thrown in with others or non-Dublin. If you buy shares in Green REIT, when you open up the business section of the IT you only want to hear about rental growth in Dublin. What estate agents are getting for a two up, two down in Mohill is not reported as most readers couldnt care less about it. Rents in Mohill arent influencing their pension return and very few people brought investment property outside of Dublin. Limerick City might have strong rental growth, but at the end of the day there are suburbs in Dublin bigger than Limerick City

Maybe the media is finally waking up the reality, that Ireland economy and the population is/has been for the last 30 years Dublin versus non-Dublin? When we had easy credit and generous tax incentives for a brief period, people had false hopes that glorified villages in the midlands had a future. When the credit died down and the construction jobs disappeared, it was business as usual or lack of business as usual.

Rant aside, I imagine the stats are Dublin versus non-Dublin as stats are seriously basic here on property. The CSO is only this or next year final introducing cash sales into property price indexes, despite cash sales dominating property purchases since about 2009/2010. Roughly half of all properties are brought for cash, yet arent included in price indexes.

meeeeh

Can anyone explain to me what has the rant above to do with the fact that statistic that covers 'outside Dublin' is completely useless because it mixes larger urban areas, smaller towns and rural areas? And it tells absolutely nothing relevant about the rental situation? Because I thought that is what the subject was about? Maybe it's just me and it is just another thread about Dublin/non Dublin frustrations that some so lovingly nurture.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me what has the rant above to do with the fact that statistic that ......

Absolutely nothing, the op asked a very genuine question and one I ask myself too when I want to find detailed reports on the Galway and Cork rental markets and got a big long winded unrelated replay.

These reports should give detailed breakdowns by area, all the cities and big towns should have individual stats reported and rural areas should be broken up into geographical locations not just all rural areas lumped in together.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Im not trying to be sarcastic but what people outside of Dublin fail to realise is that Dublin is an economic powerhouse.

What people in Dublin fail to realise is that Dublin is not Ireland, even if your stats are correct there is still 50% of the economy outside Dublin which is half the economy and therefore just as significant as Dublin. People outside dublin don't really care about the rental sector etc in Dublin or often care much about Dublin in general they want information on all things concerning their areas not this non-Dublin nonsense.

SarahMollie

Well, thats typically the headlines, but most reports can be brokendown further.

You could make the same argument for Dublin also - its not a single market. It covers everything from Foxrock and Howth to Darndale and Tallaght and everything in between.

Headlines have to be short, but the detail is all there if you go looking for it.

Emme

Counties like Kildare can present two very different sets of data. Rental properties in north Kildare towns such Celbridge and Maynooth would be similarly priced to Dublin while properties in South Kildare towns like Athy and Castledermot would be much cheaper to rent.

2 bed apartment in Celbridge - €1,350 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/apartments-for-rent/celbridge/the-square-hazelhatch-park-celbridge-kildare-1674867/

3 bed house in Celbridge - €1,250 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/houses-for-rent/maynooth/ballygoran-lodge-maynooth-kildare-1668438/


2 bedroom flat in Athy - €595 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/flats-for-rent/athy/duke-street-athy-kildare-1676792/

3 bedroom house in Castledermot - €775 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/houses-for-rent/castledermot/coill-dearmada-ard-a-laoi-l47147cd-castledermot-kildare-1677582/

Towns in central Kildare such as Newbridge and Kildare town are still much more expensive than Athy and Castledermot:

2 bedroom apartment in Newbridge - €1,100 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/apartments-for-rent/newbridge/whitewater-plaza-apartments-newbridge-kildare-1676703/

3 bedroom house in Kildare - €1,150 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/houses-for-rent/kildare/curragh-finn-rathbride-road-kildare-kildare-1677594/

There is a huge drop in rents for properties in Kildare once the decent train service stops at Kildare. The Waterford line serves Kildare and trains are far and few between. Athy and Castledermot are very cut off now on account of the M9 and both are dying towns.

markpb

KeyCode wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled as to why we keep hearing media reports that give details for Dublin and then "Non Dublin". The latter is completely pointless information.

I suspect for a long time the economy was very cleanly split between Dublin / non-Dublin so it was easy to report on. Now that things have changed and some other parts of the country are changing, the media hasn't changed the way things are reported.

Santiago Miniature Violet wrote: »

What people in Dublin fail to realise is that Dublin is not Ireland, even if your stats are correct there is still 50% of the economy outside Dublin which is half the economy and therefore just as significant as Dublin.

That's not accurate. Dublin accounts for 50%. The rest of the country collectively accounts for 50% but has no significant driver other than Cork so reporting on it collectively is silly (as the OP has pointed out) and trying to report on each small area is a waste of time.

If the media give information about Dublin, half their audience has received targeted news. If they add in Cork, they only add 10% to that number but everyone else is miffed. If they add Limerick, they add 4% and now Galway people have their panties in a twist. you could mention Galway too but it only covers 1.6% of the country so that's hardly worthwhile.

Maybe they've made a decision that it's easier to keep half the country happy in a reasonable amount of time than to keep 65% of the country happy but take four times as long reporting on it?

meeeeh

SarahMollie wrote: »

Well, thats typically the headlines, but most reports can be brokendown further.

You could make the same argument for Dublin also - its not a single market. It covers everything from Foxrock and Howth to Darndale and Tallaght and everything in between.

Headlines have to be short, but the detail is all there if you go looking for it.

I read the article in today's Times and the same as for op it struck me as completely useless. I have no intention to buy or rent anywhere but I find that kind of stuff interesting and I just thought that the whole thing was so sloppy it was almost a waste of an article.

Eric Cartman

Emme wrote: »

Counties like Kildare can present two very different sets of data. Rental properties in north Kildare towns such Celbridge and Maynooth would be similarly priced to Dublin while properties in South Kildare towns like Athy and Castledermot would be much cheaper to rent.

2 bed apartment in Celbridge - €1,350 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/apartments-for-rent/celbridge/the-square-hazelhatch-park-celbridge-kildare-1674867/

3 bed house in Celbridge - €1,250 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/houses-for-rent/maynooth/ballygoran-lodge-maynooth-kildare-1668438/


2 bedroom flat in Athy - €595 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/flats-for-rent/athy/duke-street-athy-kildare-1676792/

3 bedroom house in Castledermot - €775 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/houses-for-rent/castledermot/coill-dearmada-ard-a-laoi-l47147cd-castledermot-kildare-1677582/

Towns in central Kildare such as Newbridge and Kildare town are still much more expensive than Athy and Castledermot:

2 bedroom apartment in Newbridge - €1,100 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/apartments-for-rent/newbridge/whitewater-plaza-apartments-newbridge-kildare-1676703/

3 bedroom house in Kildare - €1,150 per month
http://www.daft.ie/kildare/houses-for-rent/kildare/curragh-finn-rathbride-road-kildare-kildare-1677594/

There is a huge drop in rents for properties in Kildare once the decent train service stops at Kildare. The Waterford line serves Kildare and trains are far and few between. Athy and Castledermot are very cut off now on account of the M9 and both are dying towns.

to be fair, Athy is well regarded as the worst area in kildare to live and should pretty much be excluded from any kildare stats. Rental was always a lot cheaper there and for good reason.

I think whats going on here is due to two factors.

1. Media sensationalism, rents going up 1% in Leitrim isn't a story , rents going up 2% in portlaoise isnt a story, rents going up 6% in dublin is a story. For newspaper column inches , they'd rather just talk about dublin all day, so they bundle the rest of the country into one pile. Particularly the larger business papers (SBP, Indo, IT) most of their readers are dublin based, and any foreign readers investing in rentals aren't interested outside of dublin.

2. We hear every day about 'the housing crisis' 'we need more houses' 'build more' , what they actually mean is 'in dublin' Like it or not, we do not need much development in other places. Perhaps cork and limerick, but overall most housing stock around the country is available and relatively cheap. Dublin , north east kildare, north wicklow, and some parts of meath are where people want to buy houses, where the paul murphys and rich boy barrets want the free houses to be built, where rent increases are a story , it all ties into one narative, paint those areas as booming to bits and it might encourage building.

Macha

It isn't just from the media. Ronan Lyons has been talking about a two-speed rental market for a few years now: http://www.ronanlyons.com/2012/08/21/irelands-two-speed-rental-market/.

Although of course that was a few years ago and sometimes it takes the media a while to catch onto something and even longer to let it go, even when the concept isn't so useful anymore.

Still, the latest Daft report shows Dublin's still out on a limb in terms of rental prices: https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q2-rental

Walter H Price

SarahMollie wrote: »

Well, thats typically the headlines, but most reports can be brokendown further.

You could make the same argument for Dublin also - its not a single market. It covers everything from Foxrock and Howth to Darndale and Tallaght and everything in between.

Headlines have to be short, but the detail is all there if you go looking for it.

Spot on Dublin as microeconomy is as diverse as the rest of country as a whole , a four Bed smi in Fox Rock , Stillorgan , Blakrock etc would be as different in valuation to a 4 Bed Smi in Rush , Finglas or Clondalkin as a house in Douglas or Ballincollig in Cork would be to place in the back of beyonds in Leitrim or Donegal.

The Dublin rental market is also news worthy as it effects people all over the country particularly students and their family's very few other places in Ireland have this issue

Claw Hammer

Walter H Price wrote: »

Spot on Dublin as microeconomy is as diverse as the rest of country as a whole , a four Bed smi in Fox Rock , Stillorgan , Blakrock etc would be as different in valuation to a 4 Bed Smi in Rush , Finglas or Clondalkin as a house in Douglas or Ballincollig in Cork would be to place in the back of beyonds in Leitrim or Donegal.

The different valuations in Dublin are not relevant. A rise or fall in one sector in Dublin (as in Greater Dublin area) will have knock on effects in other areas in Dublin. What the point of these statistics is to show a trend. Deeper analysis is well beyond any newspaper article. Areas outside of Dublin where significant numbers of people live and commute in to work in Dublin are really part of the Dublin market.
Other parts of the country are so small that local factors introduce significant distortion from time to time.

Emme

Eric Cartman wrote: »

to be fair, Athy is well regarded as the worst area in kildare to live and should pretty much be excluded from any kildare stats. Rental was always a lot cheaper there and for good reason.

I don't think that's a good idea. You suggest banning one town because it negatively skews the rental figures for an entire county. What do you suggest doing? Changing county borders and shove it into Carlow or Laois? That's like saying Darndale should be excluded from Dublin stats.

Like it or not, Athy is in county Kildare and will remain there unless county borders are redrawn. The older people in the town remember a time when it was one of the most prosperous towns in the area even though I find that impossible to believe. Apparently a lot of the prosperity came from farming and related businesses.

Athy and other similar towns around Ireland have been forgotten because of bad planning and poor infrastructure around those towns. Part of their fate is the town's own doing, part of it is due to external circumstances. Iarnrod Eireann could improve the train service between Kildare and Carlow and this would make towns like Athy and Carlow more attractive. There is a large student population in Carlow and many people from Athy and Carlow study in Dublin. If more working people moved to those towns it would improve business there.

The move from an agrarian to a rural society always involves a move to cities because that's where jobs are. One solution would be to deliberately locate businesses or government departments around the country. It's easy to locate government departments and businesses in and around Dublin but if they were located in suitable towns around the country they could change the face of rural Ireland and take some pressure off housing costs in Dublin.

Sometimes I wonder if there is a secret plan afoot to destroy rural Ireland and herd everyone into the Dublin and surrounding area. High rents benefit landlords but being a landlord isn't always easy. However the government benefits from the taxes landlords pay.

Ireland seems to be structured to benefit big business (particularly multinationals), right wing parties and the super rich. They benefit most from having people herded into cities. What's the point of having more people living in cities if there's more homelessness and skyrocketing rents? Eventually housing costs will reach a level where multinationals will no longer consider it cost effective to locate in Ireland no matter how much the Irish taxpayer pays them to do so.

Eric Cartman

Emme wrote: »

I don't think that's a good idea. You suggest banning one town because it negatively skews the rental figures for an entire county. What do you suggest doing? Changing county borders and shove it into Carlow or Laois? That's like saying Darndale should be excluded from Dublin stats.

Like it or not, Athy is in county Kildare and will remain there unless county borders are redrawn. The older people in the town remember a time when it was one of the most prosperous towns in the area even though I find that impossible to believe. Apparently a lot of the prosperity came from farming and related businesses.

Athy and other similar towns around Ireland have been forgotten because of bad planning and poor infrastructure around those towns. Part of their fate is the town's own doing, part of it is due to external circumstances. Iarnrod Eireann could improve the train service between Kildare and Carlow and this would make towns like Athy and Carlow more attractive. There is a large student population in Carlow and many people from Athy and Carlow study in Dublin. If more working people moved to those towns it would improve business there.

The move from an agrarian to a rural society always involves a move to cities because that's where jobs are. One solution would be to deliberately locate businesses or government departments around the country. It's easy to locate government departments and businesses in and around Dublin but if they were located in suitable towns around the country they could change the face of rural Ireland and take some pressure off housing costs in Dublin.

Sometimes I wonder if there is a secret plan afoot to destroy rural Ireland and herd everyone into the Dublin and surrounding area. High rents benefit landlords but being a landlord isn't always easy. However the government benefits from the taxes landlords pay.

Ireland seems to be structured to benefit big business (particularly multinationals), right wing parties and the super rich. They benefit most from having people herded into cities. What's the point of having more people living in cities if there's more homelessness and skyrocketing rents? Eventually housing costs will reach a level where multinationals will no longer consider it cost effective to locate in Ireland no matter how much the Irish taxpayer pays them to do so.

Right , i didnt say we should take athy out of kildare or redraw borders, just for housing stats, like the original poster that I replied to, athy in terms of housing stats , and some other stats like unemployment , is completely different to almost any other part of kildare and skews results badly.

And then ofcourse you dive into the left wing tinfoil hat stuff, its not big business, MNC's or the boogeyman of right wing politics causing this, come off it.

beauf

KeyCode wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled as to why we keep hearing media reports that give details for Dublin and then "Non Dublin". The latter is completely pointless information. ...

The media tend to distort facts and statics to make more dramatic headlines. They do the same with cycling, mixing them with pedestrians and motorcyclists for stats for example.

Or they'll graph the % change in the change of something. Rather than the overall change over time.

I find stats in the media often are completely flawed or skewed. I assume this is the reason.

Walter H Price

Emme wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder if there is a secret plan afoot to destroy rural Ireland and herd everyone into the Dublin and surrounding area. High rents benefit landlords but being a landlord isn't always easy. However the government benefits from the taxes landlords pay.

Hardly the reason there is little or no infrastructure in rural ireland is that there is virtually no population density , you cant provide connectivity to evey little town and village up and down the country as there is no way you could ever realise a return on that investment. Outside of Dublin even the other urban centres are too small and have two dispersed a population to put proper infrastucture in place.

Look at the physical land mass of counties like Cork , Galway and Donegal in comparison with Dublin versus their population

The Netherlands has some of the best infrastructure in Europe in terms of trains rooads canals ports airpports etc and some what unsurprisingly has an inverse situation to what we have here , they have about 17m people , 4 and a bit times our popluation on a land mass the size of muster , 1/4 of ours.

Athy is only a kip in the same sense as some poart of Dublin Cork and Galway are that not uncommon either all counties will have disavantaged areas which people are reluctant to buy or rent in that bring the overall average of house prices and rent in that county down.

There is no great conspiricy against rural ireland , its just makes no economic sense to invest in tiny underpopulated pockets of the country when you will likely never see any return on that investment

Mooooo

I know this is off topic a bit but you'd think companies or those attracting companies to set up and operate would use cork and limerick anyway if not Galway and Waterford as a base given the lower possible cost of rent for employees and indeed the company and costs in general. Both cities have airports, 2 to 3 hours from Dublin by road if needed, ports closeby, broadband etc. You'd think it would be one way to go that would also ease the housing demands on Dublin.

Emme

Mooooo wrote: »

I know this is off topic a bit but you'd think companies or those attracting companies to set up and operate would use cork and limerick anyway if not Galway and Waterford as a base given the lower possible cost of rent for employees and indeed the company and costs in general. Both cities have airports, 2 to 3 hours from Dublin by road if needed, ports closeby, broadband etc. You'd think it would be one way to go that would also ease the housing demands on Dublin.

I agree. It's all very well for some posters to write off all of Ireland outside the Pale as a "kip" but your suggestion is positive and if implemented could lead to improvement in those areas.

Leaving disadvantaged towns out of housing stats is dishonest and does those towns a major disservice.

KeyCode

I just find this happens way too much. There are other urban areas and there is an actual rental crisis going on in Cork at present. A Daft survey shows it as having the biggest rental rises in the entire country.

As for the rant about places being dependent on multinationals for core employment .. What exactly do you think Dublin runs on?

The IFSC is almost entirely foreign direct investment, there's a huge % of employment in MNCs around Dublin and a smaller bit growing indigenous set of companies. I don't see much difference between Dublin and Cork other than scale. Cork in particular is large enough to have its own momentum and has been seeing a boom. There's hundreds of millions of new retail and office space coming in stream in the city centre down there and it is worth commenting on as a real estate market.

The post would also tend to indicate that someone is prepared to go on a rant about how there's nothing beyond the pale and not even bother go check any facts or possibly never even set foot in the cities that are being written off.

To compare Dublin to Singapore is frankly laughable. One's a megacity in tiny space, the other is a medium city with a population that is mostly scattered around it.

I just think we need to get past this "Dublin" and "down the country" dichotomy. It causes major issues around how things are thought about and planned.

SarahMollie

Mooooo wrote: »

I know this is off topic a bit but you'd think companies or those attracting companies to set up and operate would use cork and limerick anyway if not Galway and Waterford as a base given the lower possible cost of rent for employees and indeed the company and costs in general. Both cities have airports, 2 to 3 hours from Dublin by road if needed, ports closeby, broadband etc. You'd think it would be one way to go that would also ease the housing demands on Dublin.

The challenge they'll then face is attracting employees. Many people don't want away from the major city, even if the rent is cheaper.

I'm sure companies relocating here are aware that rent (for them and their employees) is cheaper outside of Dublin, but so many still chose Dublin.

KeyCode

You're definitely seeing two IT clusters developing though. If you look at the general investment destinations in recent years.

They're high churn businesses too and need to be able to recruit quickly, often from competitors,

SarahMollie

SarahMollie wrote: »

The challenge they'll then face is attracting employees. Many people don't want away from the major city, even if the rent is cheaper.

I'm sure companies relocating here are aware that rent (for them and their employees) is cheaper outside of Dublin, but so many still chose Dublin.

The ones that don't have no issue getting skilled employees though. Look at Cork its the Pharma capital of the country (along with quite a few medical device companies) while Galway is the Medical device capital of the country.

zetalambda

KeyCode wrote: »

I'm absolutely baffled as to why we keep hearing media reports that give details for Dublin and then "Non Dublin". The latter is completely pointless information.

There has been huge rental growth in Cork and fairly high growth in the other cities but someone seems to think it's appropriate to report on a figure that includes everything from the most high demand parts of Cork to the most remote parts of Leitrim!

What's the point in giving an average figure like that? Without a breakdown of the figures for the cities it is completely useless.

Morning Ireland was reporting what I think was 10% growth in the non-Dublin rental market and didn't even attempt to drill down to get even a figure for Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.
The figures for the areas in Dublin's commuter belt would be highly useful too. Kildare etc etc

It makes them feel special.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Im not trying to be sarcastic but what people outside of Dublin fail to realise is that Dublin is an economic powerhouse. It is a litmus test of the economy, as Dublin nearly makes up 50% of our GDP which is insane. This means that half our economic growth is produced in that tiny county that is Dublin. It is hard for the media to be excited about the strength of towns and cities outside of Dublin that are reliant on a massive American employer or some state sponsored body like an IT for a majority of their employment

What the media dont like to report is that a lot of the country is flat lining. Some of the midlands have been in a recession since around 2003. Parts of the south east arent doing great either.

Here is an amazing fact I heard this week. Dublin's population is so big, that is is bigger than the next 90 other towns and cities ranked by population in Ireland combined. Bar many Luxembourg or Singapore, Ireland has so much of the population in a tiny area, that is extremely rare. Dublin is also where a majority of REIT owned housing in Ireland is ie the massive funds who own vast amounts of houses and apartments in the City.

When Dublin has nearly half of Ireland population and economy, cant see why parts of the country with no economic future and declining populations are just thrown in with others or non-Dublin. If you buy shares in Green REIT, when you open up the business section of the IT you only want to hear about rental growth in Dublin. What estate agents are getting for a two up, two down in Mohill is not reported as most readers couldnt care less about it. Rents in Mohill arent influencing their pension return and very few people brought investment property outside of Dublin. Limerick City might have strong rental growth, but at the end of the day there are suburbs in Dublin bigger than Limerick City

Maybe the media is finally waking up the reality, that Ireland economy and the population is/has been for the last 30 years Dublin versus non-Dublin? When we had easy credit and generous tax incentives for a brief period, people had false hopes that glorified villages in the midlands had a future. When the credit died down and the construction jobs disappeared, it was business as usual or lack of business as usual.

Rant aside, I imagine the stats are Dublin versus non-Dublin as stats are seriously basic here on property. The CSO is only this or next year final introducing cash sales into property price indexes, despite cash sales dominating property purchases since about 2009/2010. Roughly half of all properties are brought for cash, yet arent included in price indexes.

People fail to realise Dublin is an economic "powerhouse" because it simply isn't It doesn't even punch above it's weight in an Irish context. Dublin is responsible for closer to 40% of the national GDP and with it having approx 40% of the population, no surprises there! Cork with approx 10% of the population is responsible for almost 20% of Irelands GDP. There was a BS "fact" going around on thejournal or somewhere recently about Dublin being bigger than the next 40 towns and cites....Oh so it's up to 90 now! It's more like 10 if even that. And it's the same situation for Cork so don't get too excited.

eeguy

Santiago Miniature Violet wrote: »

The ones that don't have no issue getting skilled employees though. Look at Cork its the Pharma capital of the country (along with quite a few medical device companies) while Galway is the Medical device capital of the country.

Don't know how true that it really. Sure Cork has Pfizer and Glaxo and DePuy, huge huge manufacturers, but there's most of the pharma researchers are in Dublin. Medtronic, Allegran, Perrigo, Gilead and so on. Nearly all of which rank higher on the top 1000 companies list.

Is Galway really the med device capital either? There's a Boston plant there and a few others, but again, more med device companies in Dublin that Galway.

Here's a handy map of pharma locations in Ireland. Most are in the east. https://issuu.com/ipha/docs/map-of-pharmaceutical-locations-in-ireland/1?e=1122707/3245777

zetalambda wrote: »

It makes them feel special.

People fail to realise Dublin is an economic "powerhouse" because it simply isn't It doesn't even punch above it's weight in an Irish context. Dublin is responsible for closer to 40% of the national GDP and with it having approx 40% of the population, no surprises there! Cork with approx 10% of the population is responsible for almost 20% of Irelands GDP. There was a BS "fact" going around on thejournal or somewhere recently about Dublin being bigger than the next 40 towns and cites....Oh so it's up to 90 now! It's more like 10 if even that. And it's the same situation for Cork so don't get too excited.

Again, pharma manufacturing plants in Cork and Galway account for over 50% of Irish exports. No wonder Cork accounts for so much GDP. It's not the city, it's a few plants.

KeyCode

Cork's not entirely about MNCs though. There are some significant indigenous companies like Musgraves (turnover of 4.4 billion) that have grown up and are HQ'd in Cork, you've also a huge amount of food/drink companies that operate out of Cork like Irish Distillers / Pernod Ricard HQ, Heineken Ireland HQ etc. You've also major dairy companies in the county like Dairygold.
There's over 500 small food businesses so, again that's not exactly insignificant stuff.

You also have quite a few major construction and specialist engineering companies with big operations in Cork that grew up on the back of the pharma boom but have grown their operations and run major international design out of the city e.g. PM Group, an Irish international design consultancy which has a huge operation in Cork and Dublin split something like 50:50 between the two locations (something like 2,100 mostly engineering staff across that company which is big, even by international standards).

That link above to a map missed quite a few shared services centres in Cork, notably Eli Lilly and FMC.

Tyco has its global HQ in a shiny new office building on One Albert Quay.

Dell and EMC have significant European/Global finance and a growing R&D base in Cork.

Apple European HQ and major financial operations.

You've state owned utilities with big presence here, notably Gas Networks Ireland / Ervia which is HQ'd in Cork.
Also, very significant power generation activity in the harbour : Bord Gais Energy 445MW (Gas), ESB Aghada 963MW (Gas) and ESB Marina 93MW along with other smaller hydro stations and so on.

On the IT side of things apart from Apple and EMC/Dell.
You've also got McAfee, Logitech, RedHat, FireEye etc etc

Then you've a lot of pretty decent locally generated companies in the tech sector e.g. Newsweaver, Nitrosell to name just a few I'd know off the top of my head.

In terms of new prime office space, you've had One Albert Quay go up (€58 million) and Navigation House is going ahead now too (€90 million) next-door and there are other major office and retail developments going on. The Capital on Patrick's Street / Grand Parade - roughly €50 million prime retail space - You've also had Opera Lane which is an outdoor mall / new street type setup which has brought in a big load of extra retail to Patrick's Street.

On top of that you've now got IKEA hunting for a location in Cork City for their 3rd Irish store.

It's not an insignificant place by Irish standards.

Elliott S

Santiago Miniature Violet wrote: »

The ones that don't have no issue getting skilled employees though. Look at Cork its the Pharma capital of the country (along with quite a few medical device companies) while Galway is the Medical device capital of the country.

Cork is a good bit smaller than Dublin but still feels like a proper city with a huge choice of amenities and it has an airport. It's no surprise it has attracted so many companies. Galway unmistakably feels like a town. That would put a lot of people off if they are looking for a city buzz.

eeguy

eeguy wrote: »

Don't know how true that it really. Sure Cork has Pfizer and Glaxo and DePuy, huge huge manufacturers, but there's most of the pharma researchers are in Dublin. Medtronic, Allegran, Perrigo, Gilead and so on. Nearly all of which rank higher on the top 1000 companies list.

Is Galway really the med device capital either? There's a Boston plant there and a few others, but again, more med device companies in Dublin that Galway.

Here's a handy map of pharma locations in Ireland. Most are in the east. https://issuu.com/ipha/docs/map-of-pharmaceutical-locations-in-ireland/1?e=1122707/3245777


Again, pharma manufacturing plants in Cork and Galway account for over 50% of Irish exports. No wonder Cork accounts for so much GDP. It's not the city, it's a few plants.

Cork also has Lilly which is massive, they have striker (including their main r&d plant) and many others.

Galway has Boston, Medtronic, greganna, lake region and a few more with Boston and Medtronic alone employing thousands.

It's not me saying these things, it's well known that Cork is the place to be for pharma and Galway is the place to be for medical devices.

Elliott S wrote: »

Cork is a good bit smaller than Dublin but still feels like a proper city with a huge choice of amenities and it has an airport. It's no surprise it has attracted so many companies. Galway unmistakably feels like a town. That would put a lot of people off if they are looking for a city buzz.

Galway is the best place in the county to live followed closely by Cork. I woundnt wish Dublin on my enemies. You would be very surprised how an awful lot of people moving to Ireland would prefer a place like Galway and Cork to live than Dublin. I personally know many young people who have moved to Ireland and to Cork and Galway not Dublin very much by choice.

SarahMollie

Santiago Miniature Violet wrote: »

Galway is the best place in the county to live follows closely by Cork. I woundnt wish Dublin on my enemies. You would be very surprised how an awful lot of people moving to Ireland would prefer a place like Galway and Cork to live than Dublin.

Nox- at this point, I think your anti Dublin bias is well known to all in this forum, and to be honest, its pretty tiresome.

eeguy

KeyCode wrote: »

Cork's not entirely about MNCs though. There are some significant indigenous companies like Musgraves (turnover of 4.4 billion) that have grown up and are HQ'd in Cork

You are 100% correct in all you've said, I can't dispute that.

But I could easily come up with four times as much about Dublin, simply by going through the dozens of industrial and business estates and ticking off all the big names.

I took my info from here: http://www.top1000.ie/companies and you can easily see the biggest companies are far more likely to be located in the east than south or west.
That's just the way it is. All power to Cork and Galway, we need decentralisation.
Personally I'd love to move to Galway, but the jobs and wages in my field just aren't there.

Galway is the best place in the county to live followed closely by Cork. I woundnt wish Dublin on my enemies. You would be very surprised how an awful lot of people moving to Ireland would prefer a place like Galway and Cork to live than Dublin. I personally know many young people who have moved to Ireland and to Cork and Galway not Dublin very much by choice.

That's irrelevant. An awful lot of people would like to live in New York or Tokyo, but they don't. They live in Dublin, because that's what made sense from a financial point of view.

meeeeh

This whole Dublin is country debate is tiring. Is there possible to make an argument for different classification of statistical data without 'mine is longer than yours' debate.

Elliott S

Santiago Miniature Violet wrote: »

Galway is the best place in the county to live followed closely by Cork. I woundnt wish Dublin on my enemies.

Well, I'd disagree, I much prefer Cork and Dublin. And I wouldn't be the only one. Where is "best" is down to opinion. Then there's the fact that MNCs always need a certain amount of foreign workers. Where would they rather live on average? Give it a rest on the anti-Dublin thing, it's a tad pathetic. You supposedly love Ireland. How can you when you show such dislike and resentment for a quarter of the country? Weird.