Turning people against us.

Chuchote

carter10 wrote: »

Simple solution to the unending back and forth between cyclists and motorists..the city should build more smug high moral ground lanes for the cyclists, that way us drivers will never have to encounter them. Simples.

Absolutely! Cheaper to maintain, nicer to cycle on. Brilliant idea. Please campaign for this.

List of car weights (in old money, unfortunately, but you can translate to kilos easily enough) http://cars.lovetoknow.com/List_of_Car_Weights#HYzUPzJIu15fgjeT.97

Edit: some examples given

Compact car 2,979 pounds 1,354 kilograms
Midsize car 3,497 pounds 1,590 kilograms
Large car 4,366 pounds 1,985 kilograms
Compact truck or SUV 3,470 pounds 1,577 kilograms
Midsize truck or SUV 4,259 pounds 1,936 kilograms
Large truck or SUV 5,411 pounds 2.460 kilograms

(1,000 kilograms = 1 ton)

boardbeer

psinno wrote: »

Cyclists respecting red lights is pretty 50/50 whenever I put the effort into taking a count.

When the Road Safety Authority put in the effort to take a count recently, they found it to be 1/8.

Firedance

steamengine wrote: »

I see plenty of cars running reds too, but not to the same extent as cyclists. In the former its a minority - the latter a majority. That's my observation and I suspect that of many other driver/cyclists as well if they wish to be truthful about it.

It doesn't matter to what extent it's being done, the fact is it's being done and my point is that (in my opinion) someone who breaks the rules of the road in one mode of transport is just as likely to break it in other modes (ie well behaved motorists don't change their behaviour when they get on a bike - if they're well behaved in a car they'll be the same on the bike and ditto for the reverse).

I don't agree that the majority of cyclists break red lights, that's certainly not my experience. If I use my trip up or down the quays as an example, at most lights you'd see about 8 or 9 cyclists stopping, in the time they're stopped you might see 2 going through on the red. By comparison on the days I take the train I walk to docklands station, there's a junction at Mayor Street Lower and Guild Street where every time, without fail 2-3 cars will run the red light at each of roads. That's not the majority of cars either but it's a regular occurrence and its extremely dangerous.

tomasrojo

maximum12 wrote: »

This is why we need an armed police force.

I rather enjoyed this. I thought I'd quote it so it didn't get lost.

AlreadyHome

boardbeer wrote: »

When the Road Safety Authority put in the effort to take a count recently, they found it to be 1/8.

This seems about right, from experience might have gone with 2/8. Find it ranges from young lads on pieces of scrap to auld fellas covered with panniers and everything in between.

I occasionally go out on spins with guys who break lights. I don't like it. Admittedly I'll very occasionally break lights (safely!) if in a seriously mad rush but would generally limit this to pedestrian crossings on 2 lane roads away from junctions with no peds actually crossing.

Carlos Orange

boardbeer wrote: »

When the Road Safety Authority put in the effort to take a count recently, they found it to be 1/8.

That survey seems to use the percentage of cyclists observed breaking a red light as its metric but I only count amongst cyclists presented with a red light. Even still the metric varied between 5% and 44% based on location.

josip

AlreadyHome wrote: »

This seems about right, from experience might have gone with 2/8. Find it ranges from young lads on pieces of scrap to auld fellas covered with panniers and everything in between.

I occasionally go out on spins with guys who break lights. I don't like it. Admittedly I'll very occasionally break lights (safely!) if in a seriously mad rush but would generally limit this to pedestrian crossings on 2 lane roads away from junctions with no peds actually crossing.

I never go through a red light on the bike.
However, I will usually lean against the traffic light pole (as long as I'm not blocking pedestrians) so that I don't have to put a foot down.
That means that I've crossed the stop line by 1-2 metres.
Am I counted in the 2 or the 8?

boardbeer

carter10 wrote: »

Simple solution to the unending back and forth between cyclists and motorists..the city should build more smug high moral ground lanes for the cyclists, that way us drivers will never have to encounter them. Simples.

Even more encouraging is the Uber trial started in Pittsburgh yesterday: soon allowing human-controlled motor vehicles in urban areas will be as unthinkable as smoking on a plane.

AlreadyHome

josip wrote: »

I never go through a red light on the bike.
However, I will usually lean against the traffic light pole (as long as I'm not blocking pedestrians) so that I don't have to put a foot down.
That means that I've crossed the stop line by 1-2 metres.
Am I counted in the 2 or the 8?

1.5

Get off my traffic light, scum.

Macy0161

steamengine wrote: »

Your post raises a question - why would the average cyclist who regularly runs red lights not run them when driving his/her car ? What is the difference ?

Why the change of behaviour between modes ? If it's ok to do it on a bike, sure why not do it in car too ?

What is, in the case of car driver/cyclists, the reason for their behavioural change between modes ?

I'm curious because I drive and cycle too. I largely obey reds when cycling unless there's no one about, but without a doubt I'm in a minority.

I continue to doubt a "minority" of cyclists obey lights. That definitely isn't my experience as a cyclist or motorist.

However, there is no change when people move from bicycle to car - red light jumping by motorists is so common place that it's not seen as wrong any more. Every light change, on top of amber gamblers, you'll have several going through on red in my experience. That's not seen as wrong, where as people get outraged when they're actually stopped and see a cyclist do it.

That's the only difference - motorists don't "see" other motorists doing something wrong, but they do see every infringement by cyclists, taxis, buses...

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

I continue to doubt a "minority" of cyclists obey lights. That definitely isn't my experience as a cyclist or motorist.

However, there is no change when people move from bicycle to car - red light jumping by motorists is so common place that it's not seen as wrong any more. Every light change, on top of amber gamblers, you'll have several going through on red in my experience. That's not seen as wrong, where as people get outraged when they're actually stopped and see a cyclist do it.

That's the only difference - motorists don't "see" other motorists doing something wrong, but they do see every infringement by cyclists, taxis, buses...

Ah so all the motor vehicle red light jumpers are the cyclists fault too.

This thread really is fantastic.:pac:

Firedance

ronoc wrote: »

Ah so all the motor vehicle red light jumpers are the cyclists fault too.

How did you get that from his post

boardbeer

Macy0161 wrote: »

Every light change, on top of amber gamblers, you'll have several going through on red in my experience. That's not seen as wrong, where as people get outraged when they're actually stopped and see a cyclist do it.

You have to understand that, like the Bible, the Rules of the Road is a reference for judging other people's behaviour. It obviously doesn't apply to the one making the judgment, how could that work?

CramCycle

Seanachai wrote: »

Fair play, some cyclists seem to be completely averse to the concept of single file, you come around a corner on a narrow country road outside Roundwood and there's two guys having a chat two-abreast. Then they turn and give you the evils as if you're somehow in the wrong!

MOD VOICE: I think you should do some reading on this before commenting, there are several threads that discuss this in detail, please don't bring it up in here again as the concept of safety, distance and time seem to get lost when people try and explain their opinions on it.

Macy0161

ronoc wrote: »

Ah so all the motor vehicle red light jumpers are the cyclists fault too.

This thread really is fantastic.:pac:

That really wasn't my intention. My point was that many (not all - you'd be mental to label a every user of a specific traffic mode) motorists see cyclists breaking reds as wrong, but don't see motorists doing the same thing as wrong, or it's so ingrained as the done thing for a few extra cars to go through lights it's actually become normalised behaviour that they don't even notice.

Chuchote

boardbeer wrote: »

When the Road Safety Authority put in the effort to take a count recently, they found it to be 1/8.

By the way, one in three of these were turning left, which doesn't bring them into conflict with traffic (unless they're crossing a pedestrian light as well).

14% of red-light-breaker cyclists were male, 8% female; 16% were on public bikes.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/RSA%20observational%20study%202015%20–%20Cyclist%20compliance%20with%20traffic%20lights.pdf

Can't see a compliance study of motorists and red lights by the RSA…?

josip

Chuchote wrote: »

...
14% of red-light-breaker cyclists were male, 8% female; ...

It's all the transgenders that are breaking the lights!

CramCycle

It really is a stupidly skewed study that can be easily misinterpretted as they don't take enough info.

FFS 14% of males broke red lights but they have nothing there that says how many stopped when lights were red. Presumably lumped in with the going through on green cyclists. Who alot of which tell us nothing about what percentage do break red lights, just that it is at least 14% on this particular day but tif the lights were offset by a minute in an identical situation, then anything could have happened. Could have been 82% rode through reds, could have been 0%.

I do wonder does anyone with intelligence design these studies.

Carlos Orange

Chuchote wrote: »

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/RSA%20observational%20study%202015%20–%20Cyclist%20compliance%20with%20traffic%20lights.pdf

Obviously you have better google foo than I.

For anyone surprised that females are more likely to go through an orange light than males that is just a miscalculation by whoever did the report. Females are actually very slightly less likely.

boardbeer

Chuchote wrote: »

Can't see a compliance study of motorists and red lights by the RSA…?

There is this:

Only a quarter of the 15,600 motorists polled by AA Motor Insurance said they have never broken a red light and just 49.3% said they slow down when approaching an amber light. A further 2.2% admitted to habitually putting their foot down to squeeze through on amber, ignoring the rules of the road. “Most motorists in Ireland behave well on the road, but there is a reckless minority.” Says John Farrell, Director of Insurance AA Ireland.

Chuchote

boardbeer wrote: »

There is this:

Yeah, but they haven't, apparently, stood at traffic lights with their clipboard, counting, as they have with 'pedal cyclists':

Methodology
– Total of 25,126 pedal cyclists were observed at 60 different sites and in nine cities/towns. Observations were carried out between the hours of 07:30 to 10:30, 12:00 to 15:00 and 17:00 to 20:00. Where public bikes are in operation (Dublin, Galway, Cork and Limerick) the type of bike (Private and Public bikes) were recorded. Study conducted by Amárach Research

mvt

There is a contra flow bike lane on Inchicore Rd & the guard probably said to her that her going through the RL wasnt a great idea.
Bit of a storm in a teacup really.

AlreadyHome

Here's a question:

Does anybody here make a point of breaking lights on a regular basis?

If not, then we know two things to be fact:

1) Boards.ie should form a light-breaking militia
2) This conversation is not worth having on Boards.ie

Chuchote

AlreadyHome wrote: »

Here's a question:

Does anybody here make a point of breaking lights on a regular basis?

If not, then we know two things to be fact:

1) Boards.ie should form a light-breaking militia
2) This conversation is not worth having on Boards.ie

Nope.

Obviously needs a poll

steamengine

Chuchote wrote: »

a) The average cyclist does not do so. Your science is skewed.
b) What change of behaviour? I see many drivers breaking red lights.

Not really, if you accept as I do, that a majority of cyclists run red lights and a minority of car drivers do likewise, and, as stated here many times that that many cyclists are drivers too, then there is indeed a change of behaviour between the two modes.

I never see a front car pushing off early from a red, but cyclists do it regularly once there is no traffic to either endanger or prohibit them, that is the ones who obey the red in the first place and only for the reason they will be 'scuttered' out of it if they don't.

Chuchote

steamengine wrote: »

Not really, if you accept as I do, that a majority of cyclists run red lights and a minority of car drivers do likewise,

You can accept that little green fairies fly around your head if you like, but the RSA's survey showed that one cyclist in eight went through red lights, and a third of those were going left. As far as I know, 12% isn't a majority, though I'll admit that numbers aren't my thing.

07Lapierre

steamengine wrote: »

if you accept as I do, that a majority of cyclists run red lights and a minority of car drivers do likewise, .

do you have a link to some document to confirm this?

I's just back in the office after lunch.(I was driving). I was turning right at a junction that had a yellow box. the traffic coming towards me was backing up at a set of lights and I though that someone would stop before they entered the yellow box and allow me to turn right. Not a hope! I was left there until the lights went green and the last car passed and there was a gap big enough to allow me to turn.

So i can take from this ONE incident that every single driver in Ireland ignores yellow boxes at junctions?

ThisRegard

steamengine wrote: »

I never see a front car pushing off early from a red,

There was only a video posted on the Motors forum within the last couple of weeks of a car doing exactly that if you want to be amazed. I've never seen a chicken lay an egg, but I know they do.

CramCycle

steamengine wrote: »

Not really, if you accept as I do, that a majority of cyclists run red lights and a minority of car drivers do likewise, and, as stated here many times that that many cyclists are drivers too, then there is indeed a change of behaviour between the two modes.

I never see a front car pushing off early from a red, but cyclists do it regularly once there is no traffic to either endanger or prohibit them, that is the ones who obey the red in the first place and only for the reason they will be 'scuttered' out of it if they don't.

At a traffic lights it only takes one car to stop for all other cars to be unable to run the red light. On my morning commute, at every light, a number of cars break the red. Every car after the one that stopped may or may not have stopped. With cyclists this is less true as it is generally easier to circumnavigate any cyclist who stop if you so wanted.

Nothing you have said shows a behaviour change between the two, anecdotally, i know several cyclists who I have been a passenger in the car with who amber gamble and run the red a few seconds after it has turned, something they do not do on a bicycle. This is the problem though, you have your view, I have mine, Chucote has hers. None are particularly valid to anyone but ourselves. Even the studies quoted are so full of holes they could be used as a strainer for spaghetti quite effectively.

Chuchote wrote: »

You can accept that little green fairies fly around your head if you like, but the RSA's survey showed that one cyclist in eight went through red lights, and a third of those were going left. As far as I know, 12% isn't a majority, though I'll admit that numbers aren't my thing.

That's 12% of the total people who went through the light, whether it was green, amber or red. Those 12% may have been the only cyclists to reach the light while red, meaning the % running red lights, extrapolated out, is 100%. 50% of cyclists may have reached the light while red, which would put the number at 24%, with the remainder fitting into the going through on green group.

I suspect it was RSA staff who compiled the data and interpreted it, which means not only is the person interpreting the data unfit for their job, the rest of those along the chain until it was published are in no way taking pride in their work, because someone should have seen the flaw in the numbers.

steamengine

07Lapierre wrote: »

do you have a link to some document to confirm this?

I's just back in the office after lunch.(I was driving). I was turning right at a junction that had a yellow box. the traffic coming towards me was backing up at a set of lights and I though that someone would stop before they entered the yellow box and allow me to turn right. Not a hope! I was left there until the lights went green and the last car passed and there was a gap big enough to allow me to turn.

So i can take from this ONE incident that every single driver in Ireland ignores yellow boxes at junctions?

http://www.newstalk.com/Study-finds-60-of-cyclist-break-red-lights

This link is in keeping with my observations as a cyclist. But really all anyone has to do is observe for themselves.