Baptise or not to Baptise?

TheDoc

keyboard_cat wrote: »

I was not baptized and went to a religious school i was never bullied for not being baptized. im not even sure how you would bully someone for not being baptized!

Firstly Congrats op!
However for this discrimination to not be an issue for your children's children people should oppose it now and not just take the easy way out and get baptized so they can pick and choose a school
Also your child will thank you when they can opt out of religion in secondary school!

Maybe its just different areas, when I was in school I remember others being bullied and slagged for being different, and not just by kids.

I'm not saying its definitely going to happen, just removes the chance. She can do what me and my GF did, got an age, around early teens, deciding it was bollox, and that was that.

I called bollox on religion in secondary school, and similar to you's above it was no major deal. Although I was in a Christian Brothers, so I was sent down to the Canteen with those of non-catholic religions and we just did homework or messed around. But I got some **** for it, not so much from classmates cause in all honesty no one gave a **** about religion, but some of the legacy brothers gave me some **** about it.

Anyway, the wonderful world of parenting, we've made a choice that we feel best for our child, I've tried to outline why we made the choice for the OP, and while I appreciate the critique of said decision, there is a wonderful pair of V's being flicked in your direction

Permabear

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Sesame

If you are in a over-subscribed area like Dublin and surrounds, then yes a baptism cert seems to help get on the list for Catholic schools.

In other parts of the country, as long as you live in the area of the school and its not over-subscribed, then there's no point baptising (unless you need to get that original sin wiped off the baby).

I'm not a believer and couldn't morally baptise to appease my inlaws, despite their subtle remarks. It would have meant making some untrue declaration in front of family and make a hypocrite out of me. I not only do';t believe in god, but I'm opposed to the grip the church has in this country's education and health system.

With this being a current political hot topic, I do think change is on the horizon and by the time your offspring is starting school, I'd hope that there will be more alternative options available than a Catholic primary school.

The problem will remain if we all go baptising our children and adding them the the Churches list of loyal followers. The number speak for themselves and the churches will use that to support their argument for why we need to keep the schools under church patronage.

I'm hoping that the Census results, which will be released early next year, will indicate a fall in members of the Catholic church, down from the 84% of the population in the last Census in 2011. Sadly, if its still high then I can't see much change on the horizon. 96% of our schools are under the COI or RC patronage.

livedadream

endacl wrote: »

That's the way it is these days, I suppose. Style over substance...

If she hadn't been a graduate of UCC, would she have done a degree to get married there?

they were both graduates of UCC (although I hear a few quid into the hand can sort that issue out, dwindling numbers etc)

i dont think he went though the motions like other posters have said i think he educated himself on her religion so they could get married in the eyes of the god she believed in.

religion is one of those things, it what you make it i guess.

and @Akrasia
i didnt say it was offensive, i said there is a big difference between offering your opinion on something and offending others in the process for the sake of it...

ie saying things like i resent my parents for baptising me i'm sure is pretty offensive to her parents, who were trying their best im sure.

calling people who choose to make a rational educated decision hypocrites isnt necessary, you can give your opinion without belittling people who disagree with you

saying kids who bully others because of religious differences due to parenting is just riduclious, kids at that young an age just see difference they dont know if its good or bad, young tommy being pulled out of class or not participating is different, so they will point it out. the same as being short or wearing glasses or fat, all things you cant control but will be pointed out by young kids as thats why they do. they dont mean offence they just dont know. their kids... it happens.

you can chose to be pragmatic and accept that a man in a white robe pouring cold water on your head means nothing but you will get first choice on a school and your kid will have some nice stories to tell about a massive boat and all the animals and a flood or you can not care.

or you can not, but name calling of people who do believe or chose to be pragmatic is pointless and judgemental. it doesnt really help the discussion and just gets peoples backs up.

lazygal

Permabear wrote: »

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I know you're trying to sound like a voice of reason but this is just a a nice way of saying it's ok to do a religious ceremony you don't believe. And it is this attitude that maintains our current crazy system. My parents often say maybe if their generation had actually thought things through change could have happened much faster in terms of schools.

lazygal

livedadream wrote: »

ie saying things like i resent my parents for baptising me i'm sure is pretty offensive to her parents, who were trying their best im sure..

But my parents have said they weren't trying their best, they baptised us for many of the reasons stated here, fitting in, not wanting to rock the boat for schools etc. Now they say they made the wrong choice and helped to perpetuate the current system, if they had their time over they would do far better and keep us away from religion until we were old enough to critically analyse things for ourselves.

livedadream

lazygal wrote: »

But my parents have said they weren't trying their best, they baptised us for many of the reasons stated here, fitting in, not wanting to rock the boat for schools etc. Now they say they made the wrong choice and helped to perpetuate the current system, if they had their time over they would do far better and keep us away from religion until we were old enough to critically analyse things for ourselves.

and the fact you resent them for that says more about you than them.

Effects

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

DeadlyByDesign

Effects wrote: »

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

Why?

endacl

Effects wrote: »

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

And the parents who have A record of attending get to have their children baptised!

Excellent idea. Then once the last few genuine believers pass away we'd have all those lovely old buildings to repurpose!

livedadream

Effects wrote: »

I think it would make sense for their to be a sign in at mass, and then the children who have the highest number of sign ins get first preference when it comes to getting into schools.

like those starbucks cards, ten confessions and get one Penance free? :P

lazygal

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Why?

So that those who actually follow the rules and do the ceremonies for the right reasons get priority?
I would love if church attendance was linked to school enrollment for all religious schools. Lets see how that would work out!

Permabear

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lazygal

Permabear wrote: »

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I have written countless strongly worded letters to TDs. Nothing has happened. Maybe if parents actually stood over their principles there would be fewer meaningless baptism certs handed over to schools and change would be quicker.

endacl

Permabear wrote: »

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There'd be nothing stopping you just writing that letter. No need to go through the sham.

NIMAN

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Thanks,we have discussed "doing it for the sake of more choice", still feels wrong, but I think it might be something we have to look into.

I would say many young parents are of this train of thought these days.

lawred2

livedadream wrote: »

the one thing i do always say it (and just because it happened a friend of mine)
think long term.
a friend of mine got engaged, was planning the wedding when she found out she couldnt get married in the big white church wedding she wanted because her future husband wasnt baptised.
he had to go though the whole thing... over the summer so they could. was a total pain for them.

well that's bullsh!t

My wife was not baptised and there was little issue getting married in a Catholic church.

All that was needed was a five line letter to the Archbishop.

There was no requirement for that lad to go through 'the whole thing'. Sounds like he was on the wrong end of either bad or deliberately malicious advice.

NIMAN

endacl wrote: »

There'd be nothing stopping you just writing that letter. No need to go through the sham.

There is. Schooling for one.

Unfortunately the Catholic Church control 99% of schools and are allowed to discriminate against you.

You can of course stand by your principles, not baptise and take your child 1hr in the car to your nearest Educate Together school, or follow the sham and take them 5min down the road to your local Catholic controlled national school. Your choice.

Whispered

If you are on Facebook there is a group called "raising kids without religion Ireland" where you will get a lot of information. I'd highly recommend having a read through some of the posts or even asking your question there too.

We opted not to have our son christened and will not send him to a school with a religious ethos, even with the opt-out option.

endacl

Technology provides the solution...

https://www.google.ie/search?q=baptismal+certificate&rlz=1C9BKJA_enIE657IE657&hl=en-GB&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRrPC-oJHPAhVrK8AKHff9CNAQ_AUIBygB&biw=768&bih=909&dpr=2

Sebastian Dangerfield

We had this argument before and after our baby was born.

My OH, who is catholic but doesn't really partake, was adamant that it would be needed to ensure he gets into school (and to keep her parents happy I suspect, who themselves say they're religious but only go to mass at christmas). I strongly don't want him to be baptised and am willing to take my chances on the schooling front.

We reached a compromise - she is going to baptise the baby, and I wont be there. If the child asks me about god when he's older, I'll tell him different people believe different things and I believe there's no god, but he should make his own mind up.

Still quite annoyed by the fact its come to this just to be sure he gets an education, but such is life

livedadream

lawred2 wrote: »

well that's bullsh!t

thanks thats a really mature way of disagreeing with me. its not bullsht, its the honest truth, he had to go to classes in frankfield, again i dont know if he converted or just did an introduction to Catholicism and i dont really care tbh because thats not the point of the discussion if he was 5 and going to school id entertain your ridiculous comments.

lawred2 wrote: »

My wife was not baptised and there was little issue getting married in a Catholic church. All that was needed was a five line letter to the Archbishop. There was no requirement for that lad to go through 'the whole thing'. Sounds like he was on the wrong end of either bad or deliberately malicious advice.

so it is bull**** or was there bad advise? youve contradicted yourself there.

eoinzy2000

Are people here under some illusion that they are in a majority that abhors the catholic church. I pass the church every sunday, and the car park is overflowing, more than when I was young. Its full of young couples, young families. Mostly young people with a fair scattering of elderly. They may have trouble with people entering priesthood, but don't be fooled, the church has a strong, young active attendance. Change is not forthcoming. Dream away.

endacl

NIMAN wrote: »

There is. Schooling for one.

Unfortunately the Catholic Church control 99% of schools and are allowed to discriminate against you.

You can of course stand by your principles, not baptise and take your child 1hr in the car to your nearest Educate Together school, or follow the sham and take them 5min down the road to your local Catholic controlled national school. Your choice.

Well, that's the bigger picture, isn't it?

The church can claim a relevance that they don't have in reality, because all the parents turn up to register them, certificate in hand. They have the numbers on paper.

Permabear

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endacl

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Are people here under some illusion that they are in a majority that abhors the catholic church. I pass the church every sunday, and the car park is overflowing, more than when I was young. Its full of young couples, young families. Mostly young people with a fair scattering of elderly. They may have trouble with people entering priesthood, but don't be fooled, the church has a strong, young active attendance. Change is not forthcoming. Dream away.

Don't let facts and figures get in the way of your anecdote...

http://faithsurvey.co.uk/irish-census.html

keyboard_cat

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

We had this argument before and after our baby was born.

My OH, who is catholic but doesn't really partake, was adamant that it would be needed to ensure he gets into school (and to keep her parents happy I suspect, who themselves say they're religious but only go to mass at christmas). I strongly don't want him to be baptised and am willing to take my chances on the schooling front.

We reached a compromise - she is going to baptise the baby, and I wont be there. If the child asks me about god when he's older, I'll tell him different people believe different things and I believe there's no god, but he should make his own mind up.

Still quite annoyed by the fact its come to this just to be sure he gets an education, but such is life

Put some hydrophobic spray on his forehead in the morning before being baptised so the magic water doesn't physically touch him then once he turns 18 tell your other half

DeadlyByDesign

eoinzy2000 wrote: »

Are people here under some illusion that they are in a majority that abhors the catholic church. I pass the church every sunday, and the car park is overflowing, more than when I was young. Its full of young couples, young families. Mostly young people with a fair scattering of elderly. They may have trouble with people entering priesthood, but don't be fooled, the church has a strong, young active attendance. Change is not forthcoming. Dream away.

What exactly is your point here? Genuinely confused?

lawred2

livedadream wrote: »

thanks thats a really mature way of disagreeing with me. its not bullsht, its the honest truth, he had to go to classes in frankfield, again i dont know if he converted or just did an introduction to Catholicism and i dont really care tbh because thats not the point of the discussion if he was 5 and going to school id entertain your ridiculous comments.



so it is bull**** or was there bad advise? youve contradicted yourself there.

look at you taking offence... settle down petal and maybe take a breath.

I wasn't calling your story bullsh!t.

I was calling the supposed 'requirement' for this lad to be baptized as bullsh!t.

Does he have to go through confession, communion and confirmation now too?

Pffft

Effects

livedadream wrote: »

you can chose to be pragmatic and accept that a man in a white robe pouring cold water on your head means nothing but you will get first choice on a school and your kid will have some nice stories to tell about a massive boat and all the animals and a flood or you can not care.

Your pragmatism is wrong. School places should not be decided on Religion. People who pretend to be religious shouldn't get preference.