Baptise or not to Baptise?

looksee

meeeeh wrote: »

In fairness with all that was going on that isn't exactly popular stance. Neither it would overly apply to this thread because if you are religious and want to baptize kids and send them to denominational school then there is no conflict.

Indeed. However the apparent majority on this thread are not baptising, or only baptising to get children into school, an activity that should concern religious parents as the apparent preference to not baptise could have long term effects on the ethos of primary schools.

Digs

looksee wrote: »

Fine, there is no argument with that, it is, of course, entirely your own business whether and why you baptise your children.

This is however a discussion forum and the question was 'to baptise or not to baptise'. I am simply pointing out that no one so far has offered an argument why children should be baptised, other than to get them into schools. You have given your own stance, but you have not said why, in general, you feel children should be baptised. If you do not wish to share your reasoning with us then there is little point engaging with the discussion .

I don't think non-Catholics and atheists are necessarily claiming to be experts on the RC faith, but since that faith is being taught in primary schools then they surely have a right to an opinion.

I never said "children" should be baptised, I said I baptised my children. I have no interest in why others do or don't, I find it curious as to why you care to know why I baptise mine to be honest! We were recently at a meeting with the other parents and priest before baptising our second and he asked each parent what baptising meant to them and why they were doing it. One parent said because I just couldn't imagine not doing it, that was good enough for the priest but not for you it seems!

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. You think people should defend their right to baptise and I don't, as I said it's none of your business! Likewise If people don't want to baptise their child it's none of mine and they certainly don't have to defend their decision to be honest. It's pretty straight forward to me. I haven't given much thought really as to the whole baptising for a place in school as it doesn't apply to me, like meeh said. You've a bee in your bonnet about the only advocates for baptising being those looking for a place in school. I've said We didn't baptise for that reason so our actual reasoning shouldn't matter to you really.

This is going way ot though so I'll leave it there

mordeith

Digs wrote: »

One parent said because I just couldn't imagine not doing it, that was good enough for the priest but not for you it seems!

Seems pretty slack on the part of the priest. No such thing as have you any actual religious reason?

Digs wrote: »

You've a bee in your bonnet about the only advocates for baptising being those looking for a place in school. I've said We didn't baptise for that reason

But that is the whole reason behind the OP?

Digs

mordeith wrote: »

Seems pretty slack on the part of the priest. No such thing as have you any actual religious reason?



But that is the whole reason behind the OP?

Quite the opposite on the part of the priest actually, faith is a very personal thing and the priest recognises that, sometimes it is something as innate as a deep down feeling of the right thing do for your child. I know this seems like an alien concept for those with no faith! I don't question that though. Not everyone had religion "rammed down their throats" in school as I've heard said by others, only on boards I have to say though, friends and family seem to have had a different experience.

My response was to another poster who was looking for people who baptised for reasons other than school, not the op. As I said I can't help the op in their situation as we didn't baptise for those reasons.

livedadream

looksee wrote: »

We are on post 86 and still no one has defended the preference to Baptise for religious reasons, or even for preferring the 'ethos' argument. Livedadream and SteM have both offered rather wavery views, but it is not clear that either of them are regular church goers or which side of the fence they sit.
.

What has if I go to church matter in a discussion about someone else baptising their child?
Why do I have to have a side when offering advise... What a pointless post...

meeeeh

looksee wrote: »

Indeed. However the apparent majority on this thread are not baptising, or only baptising to get children into school, an activity that should concern religious parents as the apparent preference to not baptise could have long term effects on the ethos of primary schools.

Should they really? At worst they will have to organise religious education for kids outside school. Iona Institute will get into a tizzy but most people will just deal with the issue. In any case it won't affect their kids access to the school. Most of religious people I know keep their religion private. I honestly can't see what is the problem unless schools are oversubscribed and Catholics would have to go through as much hassle as everyone else to get the space.

looksee

Digs wrote: »

I never said "children" should be baptised, I said I baptised my children. I have no interest in why others do or don't, I find it curious as to why you care to know why I baptise mine to be honest! We were recently at a meeting with the other parents and priest before baptising our second and he asked each parent what baptising meant to them and why they were doing it. One parent said because I just couldn't imagine not doing it, that was good enough for the priest but not for you it seems!

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. You think people should defend their right to baptise and I don't, as I said it's none of your business! Likewise If people don't want to baptise their child it's none of mine and they certainly don't have to defend their decision to be honest. It's pretty straight forward to me. I haven't given much thought really as to the whole baptising for a place in school as it doesn't apply to me, like meeh said. You've a bee in your bonnet about the only advocates for baptising being those looking for a place in school. I've said We didn't baptise for that reason so our actual reasoning shouldn't matter to you really.

This is going way ot though so I'll leave it there

I specifically said that you are entitled to baptise for any reason at all, or none, I did not ask you why you did.

On the second highlighted point I was not asking anyone to defend their right to baptise, I was merely suggesting that it was very odd that no-one had proposed that the OP should baptise his child for faith reasons rather than the pragmatic reason of getting them into school.

As I said, this is a discussion forum, if you do not wish to discuss your reasoning on this topic, then there is not a lot of point posting.

I suppose the angle that I introduced was a bit off topic, but most of the thread is somewhat off topic to the apparently simple question, do schools require baptism as an entry requirement. The short answer is that yes, some, quite legally, do. You would have to check with the local school to see if this was likely to be an issue; most people on the thread have answered with what they have done, and why, which strictly is a bit aside from the original question.

Gael23

It will make things much easier in terms of schools. I know people who chose not to baptise and had issues with grandparents etc.

Digs

I'm sorry looksee I find your posts completely contradictory. If you reread them you'll see yourself asking people to defend (your exact word) their reasons to baptise and questioning me as to why I was of it wasn't for school?? Which as you said yourself is OT and not helpful to the OP, I suppose that we can agree on. I think it's pretty clear I baptise mine because of faith, why on earth that isn't good enough for you or disqualifies me from the discussion is beyond me but probably goes some way as to why others who baptise for reasons other than school aren't posting on this thread - you're pretty much asking people to defend their faith.

As for suggesting other reasons for the OP to baptise their children that's noones place to do so and falls under the ramming religion down people's throats category. Not something I'm into!

beauf

livedadream wrote: »

depends on the ethos of the school.
you will have to check with the schools directly.

For me this is the only answer that was correct.

Find a school that doesn't require it.

lawred2

Gael23 wrote: »

It will make things much easier in terms of schools. I know people who chose not to baptise and had issues with grandparents etc.

Relevance to access to schools?

Ms2011

We baptised both our kids. School was never a consideration. I believe in God & the majority of the church's teachings which I try to instill in my kids.
I don't go to mass every Sunday as personally I believe God would rather you live a good life everyday than sit in a special building for an hour a week.
That's a very condensed version of what I believe but the basics of why we baptised our kids.

Anne_cordelia

looksee wrote: »

We are on post 86 and still no one has defended the preference to Baptise for religious reasons, or even for preferring the 'ethos' argument. Livedadream and SteM have both offered rather wavery views, but it is not clear that either of them are regular church goers or which side of the fence they sit.

This is the Parenting forum, there should be a proportion of users that more or less corresponds with the supposed views of the wider community, but still, not one clear vote for Baptism.

As someone who is a practising catholic and has my child baptised, I am not going to advise the OP to baptise his child to get them into school. I don't know why anyone would stand over that course of action. For me it's as simple as baptise if you are religious and don't baptise if you aren't. I always laugh at these threads as it looks like the majority of people are not religious but in reality The majority of people I know have baptised for religious reasons.

beauf

looksee wrote: »

..This is however a discussion forum and the question was 'to baptise or not to baptise'. I am simply pointing out that no one so far has offered an argument why children should be baptised, other than to get them into schools. . .....

If you want to ask that question you need to ask it in the right thread and the right forum. This is neither.

If you want your child to do specific subjects, for example, music, you would move the child to a school that has it on the curriculum.

If someone asks me where to get a xmas tree I don't want to have debate on the relevance of xmas traditions. I'll just tell them where to get a tree.

Theres a acute shortage of non RC school places. End of.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Anne_cordelia wrote: »

I am not going to advise the OP to baptise his child to get them into school. I don't know why anyone would stand over that course of action.

Your point would make perfect sense if there was equal access to schooling for non-catholic children as there is for catholic children. Unfortunately there isn't.

And before someone throws out the point that people are doing it for convenience of a closer school, it's just not the case. There is only so far a working parent can practically travel every day to get their kids to school, and that's not even considering after-school activities.

beauf

It comes back to the state not providing enough non religious education places. Though they will never be able to provide an unlimited amount of places in all locations.

lazygal

beauf wrote: »

It comes back to the state not providing enough non religious education places. Though they will never be able to provide an unlimited amount of places in all locations.

There are no non religious schools in Ireland funded by the state. All are single, inter or multi denominational. Only completely private schools are truly non religious.

beauf

Hence my comment.

ChewChew

Op, I hope you've taken some food for thought from the for and against parties here. It is an important decision and one myself and my partner met a year ago. We've both been baptised and made our communion and confirmation but we did not, and will not, baptise our daughter. We, as her parents, made that decision as it is our parenting right to do so. At first, we got some negative reactions and it was mostly about the schooling situation. The way we look at it is this - she will have to get into school and we will cross that bridge when we come to it. We want an educate together school so we have nee name in two of them. If she doesn't get placed in them then we will enrol her in our local school but again, we will not baptise her to do so.

You have to accept and agree your decision and realise you are not limited like you would have been ten, twenty years ago. You are
The parents. You have the right. Do what you want not what society is dictating to you.

Also, lazygal... You are absolutely spot on!!!!

Akrasia

_Brian wrote: »

I think there are many factors to be considered. For example there isn't an educate together school within 30 miles of us. So for many people this just isn't an option.

It all comes down to what is the most sensible thing to do for your situation or location. Ask about with other parents with kids going to some of the schools you'd like to use. If there are high class sizes or students being turned away then you will put your child to the back of the que by not having it baptised. Now if your happy fighting that fight then it's simple. But if you want to increase the chances then consider the baptism.
Contrary to other posts children aren't being "handed over" to anyone. I know in our national school religion plays a very small role, bit more in communion/confirmation classes but even then the focus is on the acedemic curriculum and sports.

We have an a-la-cart approach to the church, we do what suits us, go when it suits us. My children have a balanced view of the church and what it represents.

Educate together schools aren't the only schools that accept non catholics.

Most catholic schools will accept children of every religion, and once they are in the school, the school is legally obliged to allow them to opt out of religion

If you're expecting your first child now, then it's probably 5 years before he or she goes to school, and there are active campaigns to get school admission policies changed nationally, so there is a good chance that by the time your child is 5, there will either be a much greater number of non denominational schools, or it will be illegal to turn away children for religious reasons.

Akrasia

Digs wrote: »

It's entirely untrendy nowadays to actually want to baptise your children, maybe people aren't posting on this thread for fear of being ridiculed judging by some of the previous posters attitudes.

I've baptised both my children for reasons that are no one else's business nor do I need to defend them to anyone, certainly no one on boards.ie! It has nothing to do with schools either. We also don't attend church every Sunday which again is no ones business how we practise our faith! Some of the posts suggesting checking into church etc quite frankly are ridiculously pompous and sanctimonious! For people who claim to be atheists and non Catholics they sure are experts on the subject.

There's my two cents

Most of the Atheists in Ireland are ex Catholics and most 1st generation atheists have thought about catholicism more deeply than many of the believers, the reason why I am an atheist is because I investigated the claims of the religion and the behaviour of the organisation, and I decided that it is irrational to believe in it.

When people come on a discussion forum and declare that they do things that are 'none of your business' that always strikes me as odd,. It gives me the impression that you're either ashamed of your reasons, or you haven't really thought them through enough to be able to defend them

Akrasia

livedadream wrote: »

What has if I go to church matter in a discussion about someone else baptising their child?
Why do I have to have a side when offering advise... What a pointless post...

Because religious indoctrination in Irish primary schools is a major social issue in 21st century ireland. And because the dilemma faced by the OP is caused entirely by the large number of non religious people who baptise their children in order to jump the queue at the local primary school.

If you don't care enough about your religion to attend mass and receive the sacraments, then it is very irritating to secularists that you would support a system of education that gives preferential treatment to catholics over non catholics.

Akrasia

Gael23 wrote: »

It will make things much easier in terms of schools. I know people who chose not to baptise and had issues with grandparents etc.

It's always easier to follow the crowd, it's not necessarily the best thing to do.

Grandparents are great, but this is about future generations, not the outdated religious beliefs of generations gone by.

If a grandparent chooses to hold a grudge against a grandchild who is not baptised, or against their own children for their religious views, then they're the ones who have the problem, not the child.

Akrasia

Ms2011 wrote: »

We baptised both our kids. School was never a consideration. I believe in God & the majority of the church's teachings which I try to instill in my kids.
I don't go to mass every Sunday as personally I believe God would rather you live a good life everyday than sit in a special building for an hour a week.
That's a very condensed version of what I believe but the basics of why we baptised our kids.

You can be a christian without being a catholic. If you don't believe the doctrines of the catholic faith, and if you believe that mass is a barrier to being a good person, then it's very strange that you choose to be catholic because according to the catholic church, all catholics are obliged to attend mass every sunday

"Canon 1247
On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass; they are also to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4N.HTM

This is incredibly OT, but people who say they baptise because of faith, but don't agree with the doctrines of the catholic church are actually baptising because of tradition, not because of faith.

meeeeh

Akrasia wrote: »

Most of the Atheists in Ireland are ex Catholics and most of us have thought about catholicism more deeply than many of the believers, the reason why I am an atheist is because I investigated the claims of the religion and the behaviour of the organisation, and I decided that it is irrational to believe in it.

When people come on a discussion forum and declare that they do things that are 'none of your business' that always strikes me as odd,. It gives me the impression that you're either ashamed of your reasons, or you haven't really thought them through enough to be able to defend them

Ah come on. I'm atheist because I was never spiritual person. I really don't know what detailed research you had to do to decide if you want to believe or not. We're you looking for a proof of immaculate conception? I'm sure it was hard work.

And BTW most people (me included) are not ashamed of anything they just don't feel the need to justify themselves to the likes of you. Who are you, a one man sleeper branch of Stasi?

_Brian

Akrasia wrote: »

You can be a christian without being a catholic. If you don't believe the doctrines of the catholic faith, and if you believe that mass is a barrier to being a good person, then it's very strange that you choose to be catholic because according to the catholic church, all catholics are obliged to attend mass every sunday


This is incredibly OT, but people who say they baptise because of faith, but don't agree with the doctrines of the catholic church are actually baptising because of tradition, not because of faith.

Or, people don't agree with every notion in the church and go with what feels right for them and their family.
My leanings would be more closely aligned with the Protestant church, but I'm RC reared and it means so little that I couldn't be bothered changing.

People should do what suits them, including baptism

Digs

Akrasia wrote: »

Most of the Atheists in Ireland are ex Catholics and most 1st generation atheists have thought about catholicism more deeply than many of the believers, the reason why I am an atheist is because I investigated the claims of the religion and the behaviour of the organisation, and I decided that it is irrational to believe in it.

When people come on a discussion forum and declare that they do things that are 'none of your business' that always strikes me as odd,. It gives me the impression that you're either ashamed of your reasons, or you haven't really thought them through enough to be able to defend them

Well aren't you quite the expert.

All I'll say is as for both points I think you couldn't be further from the mark.

To say atheists have thought about catholism more deeply than believers is incredibly arrogant and you're just feeding your own ego there and sense of self righteousness.

Why I choose to baptise my children is none of your business, why I choose to have faith is none of your business either. Explain to me exactly why I should have to defend anything to anyone here? Am I being judged for something? What an odd post.

Akrasia

meeeeh wrote: »

Ah come on. I'm atheist because I was never spiritual person. I really don't know what detailed research you had to do to decide if you want to believe or not. We're you looking for a proof of immaculate conception? I'm sure it was hard work.

And BTW most people (me included) are not ashamed of anything they just don't feel the need to justify themselves to the likes of you. Who are you, a one man sleeper branch of Stasi?

Its a discussion forum, I'm just telling you what impression I get when someone says 'it's none of your business' to a reasonable question.

If someone asks about someone's private life, like their address or financial details, or details of family or friends, then 'its none of your business' is a perfectly acceptable answer. But if someone says I got my kids baptised for my own reasons, and someone asks what those reasons were, the answer 'it's none of your business' leaves a certain impression.

Akrasia

_Brian wrote: »

Or, people don't agree with every notion in the church and go with what feels right for them and their family.
My leanings would be more closely aligned with the Protestant church, but I'm RC reared and it means so little that I couldn't be bothered changing.

People should do what suits them, including baptism

Yeah, they did it because of tradition rather than faith, which is just what I said

Digs

Akrasia wrote: »

Its a discussion forum, I'm just telling you what impression I get when someone says 'it's none of your business' to a reasonable question.

If someone asks about someone's private life, like their address or financial details, or details of family or friends, then 'its none of your business' is a perfectly acceptable answer. But if someone says I got my kids baptised for my own reasons, and someone asks what those reasons were, the answer 'it's none of your business' leaves a certain impression.

Nah you're just being ridiculous.