Baptise or not to Baptise?

Akrasia

Digs wrote: »

Well aren't you quite the expert.

All I'll say is as for both points I think you couldn't be further from the mark.

To say atheists have thought about catholism more deeply than believers is incredibly arrogant and you're just feeding your own ego there and sense of self righteousness.

Apologies when I said believers, I meant people who still identify as catholics. 'Believers' have thought about their faith a lot. But Catholics are a different category to believers. There are an awful lot of catholics who don't even think about religion except when it comes to filling in application forms. There are surveys showing that show about 10% of self identified catholics don't believe in god and 15% of Catholics don't believe that Jesus is the son of god

What I was saying is that there are lots of catholics who are atheists that haven't thought about it enough to call themselves atheist. The Ex catholic atheists are the catholics who thought about it and decided to reject the church.

Why I choose to baptise my children is none of your business, why I choose to have faith is none of your business either. Explain to me exactly why I should have to defend anything to anyone here? Am I being judged for something? What an odd post.

You don't have to defend anything. If you change the word 'defend' to 'explain' you'll see my point more clearly. This is a discussion forum, people ask others to explain their position all the time. If it was a debate you would be expected to defend your arguments, but this isn't a formal debate, it's a discussion and if you tell someone you did something and but don't give any reason for doing it, the other person is forced to either ask you why you did it, or make an assumption about your reasons. (if it's relevant to the broader argument)

You would be equally or more upset if someone made unwarranted assumptions about you.

And yes, you are being judged, well not you personally because I don't know anything about you, but your arguments are being judged, just like you judge my arguments, and given that this is a discussion forum, the strength of your argument is quite important. You're making an argument that the reasons why people baptise their children are private and none of anyone else's business. Others have argued that there are broader consequences for peoples decision to baptise their kids, and that they should think carefully about these consequences before they make their choice.

meeeeh

Akrasia wrote: »

Its a discussion forum, I'm just telling you what impression I get when someone says 'it's none of your business' to a reasonable question.

If someone asks about someone's private life, like their address or financial details, or details of family or friends, then 'its none of your business' is a perfectly acceptable answer. But if someone says I got my kids baptised for my own reasons, and someone asks what those reasons were, the answer 'it's none of your business' leaves a certain impression.

How is that relevant in a thread where someone is asking for a practical advice about baptism and entry into schools?

There is nothing more tedious than people who ram their world view down people's throats at every opportunity. You might feel strongly about it but a lot (probably most) people don't give a damn. I lived about 5 years with my partner before I realized he is not an atheist. Another five years later I still don't know what exactly he believes in, not because I don't understand it but because we do not discuss these things. Neither I know or care what most of my friends and family believe or not believe in.

Anyway this is completely off topic.

Akrasia

Digs wrote: »

Nah you're just being ridiculous.

Just because you don't like my position doesn't make it ridiculous. Which part is wrong, the part where someone saying 'none of your business' leaves an impression with the listener?

beauf

Akrasia wrote: »

...baptising because of tradition, not because of faith.

Each to their own.

In five years time I would expect there to a lot more choice for people who don't want religious influence in education.

It also give you time to move closer to such schools or get involved in promoting change in the local schools and establishment of educate together and similar.

Digs

Akrasia wrote: »

Just because you don't like my position doesn't make it ridiculous. Which part is wrong, the part where someone saying 'none of your business' leaves an impression with the listener?

The part about the impression you are leaving me with.

People's faith or lack there of is their private business. How odd that you think it's public property.

I think you need to actually read the OP to see what this discussion is about.

The crusade you're on might be better placed in another forum, on another thread.

Akrasia

meeeeh wrote: »

How is that relevant in a thread where someone is asking for a practical advice about baptism and entry into schools?

There us nothing more tedious than people who ram their world view down people's throats at every opportunity. You might feel strongly about it but a lot (probably most) people don't give a damn. I lived about 5 years with my partner before I realized he is not an atheist. Another five years later I still don't know what exactly he believes in, not because I don't understand it but because we do not discuss these things. Neither I know or care what most of my friends and family believe or not believe in.

Its relevant to the topic because the entire topic is about whether someone who doesn't believe in the catholic church should baptise their kids just to make it easier for them to get into a school.

The reasons for baptising a child are the topic of this thread, so when someone says his reasons are none of our business then it's strange that someone would come onto this thread and tell everyone that he/she doesn't want to discuss the topic of the thread.

If he had just said I baptised my kid because I believe in the catholic religion than that would have been absolutely fine and nobody would care, but if he says it's none of your business why I baptised my children then it leaves me wondering if he did it because of reasons other than his belief in the catholic religion and I'm wondering what those might be. It affects the every secular parent when people perpetutate the system of religious discrimination in Irish schools.

Akrasia

beauf wrote: »

Each to their own.

In five years time I would expect there to a lot more choice for people who don't want religious influence in education.

It also give you time to move closer to such schools or get involved in promoting change in the local schools and establishment of educate together and similar.

The only reason this is changing is because people are finally questioning why they're baptising their children like the OP. The OP is conflicted and the first advice given was to just baptise for pragmatic reasons. If everyone did this, then nothing would ever change.

Teyla Emmagan

Akrasia wrote:

Just because you don't like my position doesn't make it ridiculous. Which part is wrong, the part where someone saying 'none of your business' leaves an impression with the listener?

No one has to justify themselves to you, I think that's all the poster was saying. It really doesn't matter if you don't like the impression that gives or not.

You will have to look at the admission policies of the schools in your area OP. It doesn't sound like you were baptising regardless so you will have to decide then if it will go against the grain with you then to baptise if it turns out there are few options. You don't seem to be fundamentally opposed to baptism so at least the decision shouldn't be too difficult for you.

Personally I believe schools should be completely secular but we're million miles away from that happening. The powers that be seem to think that anyone who is religious must automatically want their child schooled in a environment that reflects their own faith but I don't think that necessarily follows through. There is definitely no political will to change the current situation anyway at present. I wonder if it would take a mass advocacy movement or something.

looksee

meeeeh wrote: »

How is that relevant in a thread where someone is asking for a practical advice about baptism and entry into schools?

There is nothing more tedious than people who ram their world view down people's throats at every opportunity. You might feel strongly about it but a lot (probably most) people don't give a damn. I lived about 5 years with my partner before I realized he is not an atheist. Another five years later I still don't know what exactly he believes in, not because I don't understand it but because we do not discuss these things. Neither I know or care what most of my friends and family believe or not believe in.

Anyway this is completely off topic.

The OP asked whether s/he should baptise his children or not. Either people respond by saying Yes or No without any reasons, or they give reasons and this starts a discussion. This is a discussion forum.

You say yourself, most people don't give a damn about religion, and you are quite right. So why should they be concerned, if they don't care, that other people - who do care - are obliged to be affected? The only people who are ramming a world view down people's throats are the religious. The non-religious are objecting to this, just as you are.

This debate is not off topic, this is a discussion forum and the discussion has resulted from the original question.

The only person who is off topic is the one who has not answered the original question, just stated what they have done and got offended at being asked what their reasoning is.

Akrasia

Digs wrote: »

The part about the impression you are leaving me with.

People's faith or lack there of is their private business. How odd that you think it's public property.

I think you need to actually read the OP to see what this discussion is about.

The crusade you're on might be better placed in another forum, on another thread.

People are perfectly entitled to have faith in whatever they like. If that is the reason they baptised their children, because they are practising catholics who believe in the catholic faith, that's perfectly fine. It's the best reason for baptising a child. All the other reasons are a grey issue and declaring them 'private' just avoids challenging conversations.

Some people don't like examining their own beliefs, I'm with Socrates in believing that the unexamined life is not worth living. But lots of people are happy with just going with the flow and believing things that deep down, they know they don't want to look too closely at in case they see the flaws that might shake their beliefs.

meeeeh

Akrasia wrote: »

It affects the every secular parent when people perpetutate the system of religious discrimination in Irish schools.

And the brutal thing is that most people don't feel strongly enough about the subject to take a stand. And badgering people to tell you the reasons why probably won't change that. Especially because all it will do is make it harder for them to get the kids into school and still not change anything.

DirkG

Recommend you baptise and then tell neither the child nor the school.

If, when it comes to admission (or marriage) that bit of paper proves useful, you can produce it with a flourish. Like an international drivers license, almost entirely pointless, but (very very rarely) useful.

There is NO reason to cloud your childs judgement by telling him/her. As parents you may feel it is an empty and hypocritical process (and I would agree) but the upside is that it is entirely harmless unless it is known.

Digs

Akrasia wrote: »

Its relevant to the topic because the entire topic is about whether someone who doesn't believe in the catholic church should baptise their kids just to make it easier for them to get into a school.

The reasons for baptising a child are the topic of this thread, so when someone says his reasons are none of our business then it's strange that someone would come onto this thread and tell everyone that he/she doesn't want to discuss the topic of the thread.

If he had just said I baptised my kid because I believe in the catholic religion than that would have been absolutely fine and nobody would care, but if he says it's none of your business why I baptised my children then it leaves me wondering if he did it because of reasons other than his belief in the catholic religion and I'm wondering what those might be. It affects the every secular parent when people perpetutate the system of religious discrimination in Irish schools.

Incorrect. The topic of the thread is are schools still requiring it. Again you might consider reading the opening post.

I've said numerous times I've baptised because of faith but have been badgered to provide further reasoning which I have questioned. You've self appointed yourself as judge and jury on what constitutes a good catholic anyway so I don't think explaining myself would get me anywhere even if I had the energy to go there.

And I'm a she by the way.

Finally! Considering you are so adamant how a catholic should practise their faith I do find it surprising you have issue with baptism being a requirement to enter a RC school. The major issue of the government not funding adequate alternatives to these schools however is another story.

And that's enough for one Saturday morning for me

Akrasia

Digs wrote: »

Incorrect. The topic of the thread is are schools still requiring it. Again you might consider reading the opening post.

I've said numerous times I've baptised because of faith but have been badgered to provide further reasoning which I have questioned. You've self appointed yourself as judge and jury on what constitutes a good catholic anyway so I don't think explaining myself would get me anywhere even if I had the energy to go there.

And I'm a she by the way.

Finally! Considering you are so adamant how a catholic should practise their faith I do find it surprising you have issue with baptism being a requirement to enter a RC school. The major issue of the government not funding adequate alternatives to these schools however is another story.

And that's enough for one Saturday morning for me

Enjoy your day

I don't have anything against anyone with faith, I'm just naturally curious about why people believe (and I just love a good old fashioned argument)

2RockMountain

DirkG wrote: »

Recommend you baptise and then tell neither the child nor the school.

If, when it comes to admission (or marriage) that bit of paper proves useful, you can produce it with a flourish. Like an international drivers license, almost entirely pointless, but (very very rarely) useful.

There is NO reason to cloud your childs judgement by telling him/her. As parents you may feel it is an empty and hypocritical process (and I would agree) but the upside is that it is entirely harmless unless it is known.

I see the practicality of your point, but it's not true to say 'entirely harmless'.

The harm arises from your child's 'membership' of the Church. They are one more number that the Church can quote back to justify their ongoing ownership and control of the Church.

Declaration of personal hypocrisy: I did pretty much what you suggested, as much for family reasons as schooling reasons.

looksee

Baptism is a deeply symbolic act of faith that requires sincere vows and undertakings on the part of people concerned for the spiritual welfare of the child being baptised.

If you accept that description, and agree with it, then certainly baptise your child.

If you do not agree with it, but you baptise your child in order to make secular concerns like getting an education easier to do, then you are standing in a place that many people consider sacred, and lying. It is rather sad to think that so many people have so little respect for other people's beliefs that they are prepared to do this.

At the same time the Catholic Church is well aware of what is happening, but is cynically allowing it to continue in order to maintain control over education, and people. If you were baptised but have never involved yourself in religion beyond the public aspects of the sacraments, you are not a Catholic (or Protestant). You should not describe yourself as RC on the census. You are handing aspects of the freedom and independence of this country to an unelected body that rules from outside the country and relies on the indoctrination that is achieved through religious teaching in schools.

If you want to contribute to the OP's question and want to support the RC faith being taught in schools, then you say that. If you have baptised for faith reasons, why be embarrassed about it, your church asks you to declare your faith. If you have baptised for cynical reasons (to get children into school, placate the grandparents etc) then either say so - as many have - or just don't get into the discussion; making a fuss about how it is private and no-one else's business is what is ridiculous.

greenorchard

We haven't baptised our one year old & wont be doing so. We live in Dublin & I don't know if we'll have trouble getting her into a local school but we'll worry about that if and when it happens. Hopefully she'll get a place in an Educate Together. If not she'll get a place somewhere, she's not gonna be left with no school at all.

The way I see it is that if we baptised then we're only adding to the problem & the only way things will change is by people like us making a stand now and refusing to go along with the charade.
It's not just a bit of paper, the more catholics there are at least on paper, the more the church can claim that all these Catholic schools & admission policies are warranted.

Be the change you want to see in the world and all that.

looksee

Digs wrote: »

Incorrect. The topic of the thread is are schools still requiring it. Again you might consider reading the opening post.

I've said numerous times I've baptised because of faith but have been badgered to provide further reasoning which I have questioned. You've self appointed yourself as judge and jury on what constitutes a good catholic anyway so I don't think explaining myself would get me anywhere even if I had the energy to go there.

And I'm a she by the way.

Finally! Considering you are so adamant how a catholic should practise their faith I do find it surprising you have issue with baptism being a requirement to enter a RC school. The major issue of the government not funding adequate alternatives to these schools however is another story.

And that's enough for one Saturday morning for me

No in fact you did not. You said you have baptised for your own reasons and that they were no one else's business. You refused to say that you had baptised for faith reasons, if you had said that this particular discussion would not have gone any further. No one asked you to expand on your faith reasonings, the question was simply whether or not you did it for faith or pragmatic reasons - which was relevant to the conversation.

Digs

looksee wrote: »

No in fact you did not. You said you have baptised for your own reasons and that they were no one else's business. You refused to say that you had baptised for faith reasons, if you had said that this particular discussion would not have gone any further. No one asked you to expand on your faith reasonings, the question was simply whether or not you did it for faith or pragmatic reasons - which was relevant to the conversation.

"you said yourself is OT and not helpful to the OP, I suppose that we can agree on. I think it's pretty clear I baptise mine because of faith, why on earth that isn't good enough for you or disqualifies me from the discussion is beyond me but probably goes some way as to why others who baptise for reasons other than school aren't posting on this thread - you're pretty much asking people to defend their faith."

A snippet of a previous post you ignored looksee, but sure don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant

trixychic

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

Thanks,we have discussed "doing it for the sake of more choice", still feels wrong, but I think it might be something we have to look into.

It absolutely is wrong but unfortunately it's still the case. Only Catholic schools around us so we did baptize. But we are not religious. I'm not fond of the fact that my sons are only learning Catholicism in school either. I try to explain things at home but it's so hard. Best of luck.

meeeeh

looksee wrote: »

If you want to contribute to the OP's question and want to support the RC faith being taught in schools, then you say that. If you have baptised for faith reasons, why be embarrassed about it, your church asks you to declare your faith. If you have baptised for cynical reasons (to get children into school, placate the grandparents etc) then either say so - as many have - or just don't get into the discussion; making a fuss about how it is private and no-one else's business is what is ridiculous.

I clearly stated we baptized the kids and that I am atheist and I haven't got a clue what my partner is so it's not exactly a stretch to realize it wasn't for religious reasons. As someone who was schooled in country where schools are completely secular I never felt baptism is something I am making a stand with and it was only an excuse for family occasion. Only after I filled in school admission form for the oldest one I realized it's a handy thing to have. So how is that relevant to this thread is beyond me.

As by the by I declare myself as no religion on census forms. It's statistical information why would I declare myself as something else?

About your other stuff of what I or anyone else should or shouldn't do my reply is simply: jog off.

trixychic

looksee wrote: »

If you do not agree with it, but you baptise your child in order to make secular concerns like getting an education easier to do, then you are standing in a place that many people consider sacred, and lying. It is rather sad to think that so many people have so little respect for other people's beliefs that they are prepared to do this.

I don't think that is fair as I have plenty of respect for others opinions and beliefs. I would never think that said beliefs are silly or useless or whatever else.

But the sad fact of the matter is that there are very few non denominational schools in rural areas. And the Catholic schools that are there have waiting lists some incredibly long. (One local school we sent application form to only accepted my son there this yr. He's in 1st class somewhere else). The fact of the matter is that in some rural areas, being part of the faith is the only way to give your child a boost up in the educational world. It had nothing to do with disrespect at all.

If schools changed this status and became "first come first serve" in stead, regardless of the background, I think the numbers would change. My child as aspergers and its already making life a struggle. That one piece of paper makes getting him an education a bit less so.

Blahfool

greenorchard wrote: »

We haven't baptised our one year old & wont be doing so. We live in Dublin & I don't know if we'll have trouble getting her into a local school but we'll worry about that if and when it happens. Hopefully she'll get a place in an Educate Together. If not she'll get a place somewhere, she's not gonna be left with no school at all.

The way I see it is that if we baptised then we're only adding to the problem & the only way things will change is by people like us making a stand now and refusing to go along with the charade.
It's not just a bit of paper, the more catholics there are at least on paper, the more the church can claim that all these Catholic schools & admission policies are warranted.

Be the change you want to see in the world and all that.

A thousand times this, and all that.

beauf

Akrasia wrote: »

The only reason this is changing is because people are finally questioning why they're baptising their children like the OP. The OP is conflicted and the first advice given was to just baptise for pragmatic reasons. If everyone did this, then nothing would ever change.

It's not the only reason. There are many reasons. For example with all the immigration theres a growth in other religions.

There's also a massive decline in priest numbers. They are dying out. In a few years there be none available in many areas. The RC church is rapid decline.

What's needed is to get involved in the promotion of non religious schools.

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

It's not the only reason. There are many reasons. For example with all the immigration theres a growth in other religions.

There's also a massive decline in priest numbers. They are dying out. In a few years there be none available in many areas. The RC church is rapid decline.

What's needed is to get involved in the promotion of non religious schools.

I am not so sure about that. For me by far most elegant solution would be scrapping of patronage and making public schools state schools. Our local ET has 50% kids of parents who were not born here. It's clear that brings it's own challenges. Once all schools are completely without ethos there are a lot less reasons for segregation on basis of parent beliefs or nationality.

beauf

Akrasia wrote: »

Enjoy your day

I don't have anything against anyone with faith, I'm just naturally curious about why people believe (and I just love a good old fashioned argument)

That attitude derails every thread about schools and enrolments into the same dead end. Which is why many don't bother contributing.

Cycling threads are the same . Many forums on boards are very one bias as a result. Which in turn means they may be not reflect society in general. Just a subset on boards.

beauf

meeeeh wrote: »

I am not so sure about that. For me by far most elegant solution would be scrapping of patronage and making public schools state schools. Our local ET has 50% kids of parents who were not born here. It's clear that brings it's own challenges. Once all schools are completely without ethos there are a lot less reasons for segregation on basis of parent beliefs or nationality.

All schools have an ethos. State schools though shouldn't have have a religious bias.

Private schools is a different issue.

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

All schools have an ethos. State schools though shouldn't have have a religious bias.

Private schools is a different issue.

I know all schools in Ireland have ethos, I just don't think offering more different ethos is the answer. There are plenty of school systems around the world that function just fine without any kind of ethos. It's usually just state offloading it's job to some interest group anyway.

beauf

I didn't say they should have an ethos. Just that it shouldn't be a religious one in a state school.

meeeeh

beauf wrote: »

I didn't day they should have an ethos. Just that it shouldn't be a religious one in a state school.

I know you didn't, I did.

My point is that with more choice you always segregate and there will be always some one excluded. Sorry for not being clear. So for me instead of offering more choice to cater to any belief the solution would be to move that into private sphere and publicly offer just education without any religious or other world view influence.

Anyway I am off topic again.