Deal to restore pay for newly-qualified teachers in INTO and TUI

acequion

implausible wrote: »

However, the only issue you ever hear coming from the ASTI is "we won't assess our own students" and that is the message that is going out. This issue has been resolved. As teachers, our contract states that we have to teach the syllabus, regardless of industrial relations stance, so complaining about outcomes-based education is a waste of time as that is the syllabus that we are now obliged to teach and no amount of striking is going to reverse that, which is why it's only assessment and CPD that ASTI members are prohibited from doing.

The old JC English syllabus had objectives to be followed and in my school we have always followed the JCSP statements which are not too far off the new JC statements of learning. Initially, I was not a "huge fan" of the JCSA. I objected loudly at staff meetings and union meetings, where I repeated brought up the issue. After the first CPD, I was livid and directly contacted TUI Head Office about how disorganised and uninformative the CPD was. I spoke on the picket line about issues of fairness and workload and added my voice to the campaign to delay implementation of English until 2015.

But the 2015 changes came in, addressing the issue that we do not have to assess our own students for state certification. The next CPD was far more illuminating, we have been given 14 hours planning time this year (ten last year), time to organise and have the SLAR meeting and the paperwork has simply not materialised. This summer, instead of setting and marking a second year English exam, we had our oral assessments and our SLAR meeting and the experience was unstressful for me, positive for the students and easier than marking summer exams. I genuinely am mystified at your claim of a "hugely increased workload for English teachers" and can only speculate that non-attendance at CPD workshops is the reason for this. I have not heard this complaint from English teachers within my ETB who are teaching the syllabus and engaging the assessment.

"What negotiation?" is right. The ASTI refused to engage in talks. Paycuts were a result of the economic climate and the agreement was in lieu of them being unilaterally forced upon us anyway. This too was voted upon.

The concerns I have about the ASTI vote stem from the fact that I suspect many of those who voted were not in full possession of the facts of the 2015 agreement, not that ASTI members are "thick." Obviously, people who go onto boards to discuss education have an interest in it and are somewhat informed, but judging by other teachers I have met and posts on social media groups, I fear that these teachers are in the minority.

I don't want to get into a series of wrangles with you on this but a few points are important.

1. You do have a point when you say that ASTI played the whole thing on the assessment of own students without making it sufficiently clear that there were many other issues of equal importance which haven't been resolved.While the wider public may not be clear on this,you, as a teacher, must be.

2. Also true that many of the members were not clear on what they were voting for but that is the case for the members of both unions as disengagement and dissatisfaction is widespread. So voters unfortunately just go along with the recommendation without being fully informed, or else don't vote at all.

3.I differ with you re TUI members who have attended in service. I know lots of teachers in TUI schools and any of the English teachers I have spoken to are not happy,neither about the in services nor the course.

4. You are deluding yourself implausible if you think it won't ultimately lead to an increased workload. That reform is based on the Scottish curriculum for excellence where teachers have gone on record about being weighed down by the workload. CBAs will add to the workload, SLARs will add to the workload and English teachers here are already swamped with the ever changing senior course. New comparatives almost every year, new poets,6-7 page essays multiplied by 30 to correct! The way it's going teachers won't have time for their second subject which is crazy.And watch the prescribed texts in the junior course change around as they do on the senior course. There seems to be no cognisance at all of the manageability of the workload and that's accounting for the paltry 40 mins per week allowance, a drop in the ocean.

5. The ASTI refused to engage in talks while a gun was put to their head.The ASTI want to talk but the only way the Gov will do so is if they sign up to the LRA. That's not negotiation. And members [after several ballots] voted to accept these agreements and honoured them. But the Gov broke them ie not paying ASTI members for S&S despite promises.The Gov also broke the CPA when it morphed into HRA. So I believe the ASTI is right to resist entering agreements which the other party constantly breaches.

deiseindublin

Grossly overpaid? We've staff there for 5+ years on PT contracts, no hours of their own, child(ren) in creche and their take home wage is less than creche fee, hours dotted throughout the day so still there all day. The mind boggles how this is a cushy overpaid number.

medicine12345

Gebgbegb wrote: »

please read the charter about comparing apples and oranges. I've yet to see doctors throwing in the towel and moving into teaching.
Ta.
Mod

Yea because they throw in the towel and go to work abroad where they are paid properly. Dont hear of many teachers going abroad, i doubt theres many other countries who pay their teachers more than their doctors. dont know a good thing when they see it

acequion

Villain wrote: »

You mean the nature of education that is years behind other EU countries, my attitude is based on a successful career in I.T. Despite my education not because of it and as I write another job spec to advertise I know those applying will suffered the same lack of modern subjects that I did nearly 20 years later.

You are completely wrong. I have lived in other EU countries and their syllabus and methodologies continue to be very traditional. The main advantage other EU countries have over us [and that's only the northern ones] is better language skills. Yes certain countries have better subject choices and it would be desirable here to modernise the subject choices but that's the role of the DES /NCCA, not the teachers.

People trying to make out that in Ireland we're some kind of lazy paddies while the rest of the EU is one great machine makes me laugh. Spend some time in southern France, Spain or Italy and it will remind you of Ireland in bygone days.Modern Ireland is much closer to the US and the UK in its work practices and treatment of workers than it is to the EU.

evolving_doors

Villain wrote: »

You mean the nature of education that is years behind other EU countries, my attitude is based on a successful career in I.T. Despite my education not because of it and as I write another job spec to advertise I know those applying will suffered the same lack of modern subjects that I did nearly 20 years later.

What, you want to hire programmers out of secondary?
Have you tried third level to train up your staff?
Anyhow, it's bit much having a go at teachers of other subjects for not 'letting in' coding teachers. If you can't find applicants for your company how do you expect to get someone out of college into teaching it?

Out of interest... How much are you offering said programmer?

evolving_doors

medicine12345 wrote: »

Yea because they throw in the towel and go to work abroad where they are paid properly. Dont hear of many teachers going abroad, i doubt theres many other countries who pay their teachers more than their doctors. dont know a good thing when they see it

ok well there's seems to be a disparity between hearing and listening so Please read the charter. These are old and tired arguments for the forum which end in rat-holing the topic... which serve no one.
Do not respond to this post on-thread.
Thanks
Mod

man_no_plan

fixed your post there below

myshirt wrote: »

Let's deal with it in turn then:

IN MY OPINION

1. Teachers are grossly, grossly overpaid.

2. Younger members were actively shafted in favour of older members.

Let's start there. What of that is incorrect?

It is truly shameful that we return to this, we learnt nothing from the crash at all, we have totally missed the opportunity to do what is right and proper here and cut the benefits of teachers, especially the older members in order to rebalance the wrong.

It is mind boggling that it would go the other way, and see an increase.

Villain

It's not about looking for students right out of school, it's about students at 18 getting their first exposure to subjects at third level.

The U.K. Have started a new curriculum a few years ago at primary and secondary, I have a friend who teaches primary and they use minecraft at primary level to introduce coding.

If you look at Israel they started back in 1995, hence the number of software companies located there now.

Starting salary with little experience is 23,500 to 27,000

Green Peter

myshirt wrote:

It is mind boggling that it would go the other way, and see an increase.

myshirt wrote:

1. Teachers are grossly, grossly overpaid.

myshirt wrote:

2. Younger members were actively shafted in favour of older members.

myshirt wrote:

Let's start there. What of that is incorrect?

myshirt wrote:

It is truly shameful that we return to this, we learnt nothing from the crash at all, we have totally missed the opportunity to do what is right and proper here and cut the benefits of teachers, especially the older members in order to rebalance the wrong.

myshirt wrote:

It is mind boggling that it would go the other way, and see an increase.

myshirt wrote:

It is truly shameful that we return to this, we learnt nothing from the crash at all, we have totally missed the opportunity to do what is right and proper here and cut the benefits of teachers, especially the older members in order to rebalance the wrong.

myshirt wrote:

Let's start there. What of that is incorrect?

myshirt wrote:

2. Younger members were actively shafted in favour of older members.

myshirt wrote:

1. Teachers are grossly, grossly overpaid.

myshirt wrote:

It is truly shameful that we return to this, we learnt nothing from the crash at all, we have totally missed the opportunity to do what is right and proper here and cut the benefits of teachers, especially the older members in order to rebalance the wrong.

myshirt wrote:

It is mind boggling that it would go the other way, and see an increase.

myshirt wrote:

It is truly shameful that we return to this, we learnt nothing from the crash at all, we have totally missed the opportunity to do what is right and proper here and cut the benefits of teachers, especially the older members in order to rebalance the wrong.

myshirt wrote:

1. Teachers are grossly, grossly overpaid.

myshirt wrote:

2. Younger members were actively shafted in favour of older members.

myshirt wrote:

Let's start there. What of that is incorrect?

myshirt wrote:

It is truly shameful that we return to this, we learnt nothing from the crash at all, we have totally missed the opportunity to do what is right and proper here and cut the benefits of teachers, especially the older members in order to rebalance the wrong.

What do you work at yourself?

man_no_plan

Villain wrote: »

It's not about looking for students right out of school, it's about students at 18 getting their first exposure to subjects at third level.

The U.K. Have started a new curriculum a few years ago at primary and secondary, I have a friend who teaches primary and they use minecraft at primary level to introduce coding.

If you look at Israel they started back in 1995, hence the number of software companies located there now.

Starting salary with little experience is 23,500 to 27,000

To teach coding to a standard that would allow kids to make an informed decision requires a high level of proficiency on the part of the teacher, the skillset isn't in abundance at the minute among teachers.

So if you want people to teach coding you train them properly and pay them properly. If you're into the free market, as it seems you are, would all of these well trained coders not, in the absence of decent pay teaching, just work as coders?

medicine12345

man_no_plan wrote: »

To teach coding to a standard that would allow kids to make an informed decision requires a high level of proficiency on the part of the teacher, the skillset isn't in abundance at the minute among teachers.

So if you want people to teach coding you train them properly and pay them properly. If you're into the free market, as it seems you are, would all of these well trained coders not, in the absence of decent pay teaching, just work as coders?

He could hire doctors to do the coding, train them up quick and they are cheaper employed than teachers. Shur the local biology teacher gets more than the person performing life saving surgeries day in and out around the country at any time of day or night

Villain

man_no_plan wrote: »

To teach coding to a standard that would allow kids to make an informed decision requires a high level of proficiency on the part of the teacher, the skillset isn't in abundance at the minute among teachers.

So if you want people to teach coding you train them properly and pay them properly. If you're into the free market, as it seems you are, would all of these well trained coders not, in the absence of decent pay teaching, just work as coders?

How did the UK and others do it? I'm sure some teachers could upskill.

If we only ever look at the reason why we can't we never will.

If you can teach honors maths or science subjects, computer science wouldn't be an issue.

Moody_mona

Villain wrote: »

If you can teach honors maths or science subjects, computer science wouldn't be an issue.

That's not how the teaching Council operates. I don't disagree that it should be taught, but to teach any subject requires an undergrad degree and a set number of credits on the variety of different aspects. I teach Maths and chemistry; I'd be more than capable of teaching physics or applied Maths but that's not how it works, I'm not qualified. It would be a serious undertaking to get coding set up as a subject for JC or LC.

rainbowtrout

Villain wrote: »

How did the UK and others do it? I'm sure some teachers could upskill.

If we only ever look at the reason why we can't we never will.

If you can teach honors maths or science subjects, computer science wouldn't be an issue.

I said this several posts back. It can't happen overnight. And if a computer science grad wants to teach to make themselves some way employable in the long term they will need a second subject.

km79

medicine12345 wrote: »

Yea because they throw in the towel and go to work abroad where they are paid properly. Dont hear of many teachers going abroad, i doubt theres many other countries who pay their teachers more than their doctors. dont know a good thing when they see it

You don't know any poor teachers
You don't hear of many teachers going abroad
YOU DONT KNOW ANY TEACHERS SO
I have said it before I'll say it again . Everyone is an expert on the teaching profession ! I would never wade into a doctors forum pretending to know anything about their working conditions, training , etc
Why ? Cos I am not in the profession so I know NOTHING about it
But everyone went to school so they are an expert on our working conditions

judeboy101

Moody_mona wrote: »

That's not how the teaching Council operates. I don't disagree that it should be taught, but to teach any subject requires an undergrad degree and a set number of credits on the variety of different aspects. I teach Maths and chemistry; I'd be more than capable of teaching physics or applied Maths but that's not how it works, I'm not qualified. It would be a serious undertaking to get coding set up as a subject for JC or LC.

The teaching council can be made accept inferior dips etc if government tells them to. Just look at the maths top-up diploma. No way in hell it equates to a maths degree but was accepted due to need for "qualified" maths teachers. Same will happen with coding/comp science

Moody_mona

judeboy101 wrote: »

The teaching council can be made accept inferior dips etc if government tells them to. Just look at the maths top-up diploma. No way in hell it equates to a maths degree but was accepted due to need for "qualified" maths teachers. Same will happen with coding/comp science

The Maths diploma was a top up as you said, so the coding one would require teachers to have taken computer science in the first year of their undergrads - I don't think that would be very common but that's just my own guess.

spurious

Some terrible nonsense being spouted here by some who clearly have no idea of what goes on in schools, other than something they perceived as a student at some stage.

Hint: if you left school any time before about three years ago, things are MUCH worse now.

I've flown on lots of aeroplanes, I would never presume I know all about what goes on in one.

Any more teacher-bashing posts and this is getting shut.

judeboy101

Moody_mona wrote: »

The Maths diploma was a top up as you said, so the coding one would require teachers to have taken computer science in the first year of their undergrads - I don't think that would be very common but that's just my own guess.

I would think most tech/engineering/dcg teachers would have enough computer in their primary so a top up would work. We tried a lunchtime coding club in my school of ~1000 students, 90 turned up first day. When they realised they wouldn't be leaving with their own self made call of duty, the second day had about 15. By the end of the year only ten had stuck it out. We need more modern languages taught, not coding imho.

spurious

Have split some posts off into a different thread.

2RockMountain

spurious wrote: »

Hint: if you left school any time before about three years ago, things are MUCH worse now.

I've flown on lots of aeroplanes, I would never presume I know all about what goes on in one.
.[/B]

Welcome to the public sector. Everyone who has ever been to school knows how to fix every problem in the education sector. Everyone who has ever paid motor tax knows how to fix every problem on our road. Everyone who has had their sprained ankle x-rayed in hospital knows exactly how many cath labs we need in Waterford.

I was at a wedding yesterday, sitting at a table with one shop owner and plumber waffling about NAMA property deals when they clearly hadn't even read the publicly available information, let alone had any actual professional insight into such matters. My lip is badly bitten.

Notorious

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The deal will in effect return the degree allowance to the teachers who have started after 2011. The gap therefore will now just be for the hdip/masters.
It goes a very long way to pay parity. I'm sure the TUI will continue to fight for that.
What have the ASTI achieved for their NQTs. Longer CID and now a vastly inferior pay scale.

The TUI gave us the impression that they would be chasing a pay rise next, and that the hDip/Ma allowance is off the table. From what I understand, the powers that be see the financial difference forfeit by the allowance bonus as very marginal.

I'm not saying this is gospel, but that was the impression I was given by one of our TUI officials.

I agree that this goes a long way towards parity, but IMO the least we should be expecting is full parity. The Luas/bus drivers are seeking a raise - why should we be accepting the first deal that crosses the table?

judeboy101

Notorious wrote: »

The TUI gave us the impression that they would be chasing a pay rise next, and that the hDip/Ma allowance is off the table. From what I understand, the powers that be see the financial difference forfeit by the allowance bonus as very marginal.

I'm not saying this is gospel, but that was the impression I was given by one of our TUI officials.

I agree that this goes a long way towards parity, but IMO the least we should be expecting is full parity. The Luas/bus drivers are seeking a raise - why should we be accepting the first deal that crosses the table?

Threatened strike action by two unions squeezed nearly half the money back, imagine if both unions had taken action. The irony is that the Asti members do not want a pay rise, but rather the nqt/lpt get paid the same. If tui accept this, they are endorsing the status quo and legitimizing pay disparity across the education system imho.

joebloggs32

Notorious wrote: »

The TUI gave us the impression that they would be chasing a pay rise next, and that the hDip/Ma allowance is off the table. From what I understand, the powers that be see the financial difference forfeit by the allowance bonus as very marginal.

I'm not saying this is gospel, but that was the impression I was given by one of our TUI officials.

I agree that this goes a long way towards parity, but IMO the least we should be expecting is full parity. The Luas/bus drivers are seeking a raise - why should we be accepting the first deal that crosses the table?

TUI will put in a separate claim for the hdip/ma allowance once this is accepted.
We could sit back and say all duck ir no dinner, meanwhile the NQT's would be missing out on a considerable pay rise while we battle it out. Any NQT I have talked to seems very happy with this development.

evolving_doors

What hand has the TUI to play with?
It isn't as if they can threaten a strike or anything.
The only way they will get anything more is because of the actions or threatened actionss of the ASTI.
But I get the feeling they should be happy with their lot now.

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

What hand has the TUI to play with?
It isn't as if they can threaten a strike or anything.
The only way they will get anything more is because of the actions or threatened actionss of the ASTI.
But I get the feeling they should be happy with their lot now.

So the TUI and INTO only got this money for their members because the ASTI threatened to strike?

As someone said above the TUI and ASTI threatened to strike if thee wasn't something done. The TUI was in the LRA when it did so so tell me what the point being made is?

Hold tough for a year, more? All the while newly appointed teachers suffer a compounded loss?

deiseindublin

man_no_plan wrote: »

So the TUI and INTO only got this money for their members because the ASTI threatened to strike?

I think this pretty much sums it up. Do you really believe that the timing of this 'fabulous' step towards the sought after equalisation isn't very convenient?

The TUI basically signed up to a deal with the offer of talks. If ASTI had folded at the same time they'd be getting SFA now. Only reason they got this offer is in the hope that ASTI support crumbles. I'd say it could well work too.

I was wondering if we'll have a ballot on the new TUI deal? Is it signed, sealed and delivered now? When will be hear what the extra productivity is? I can see them leading up further up the garden path, God only knows what it is.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

So the TUI and INTO only got this money for their members because the ASTI threatened to strike?

As someone said above the TUI and ASTI threatened to strike if thee wasn't something done. The TUI was in the LRA when it did so so tell me what the point being made is?

Hold tough for a year, more? All the while newly appointed teachers suffer a compounded loss?

Well as you alluded to, It's not about holding out, it's about being on the same page in terms of threatening to take real action (which luas and bus drivers understand).

I dunno, maybe it serves the govt to split the unions (and split within each union)... Then again, maybe it serves all teachers to have a split so that the ASTI can jump into LR when enough promises have been kept, and proper restoration made.

feardeas

Having read some posts here it seems that teachers are better paid than doctors which is great news, I'm glad.

Meanwhile in a little place called reality I have never heard such nonsense. Height of respect for the medical profession but that takes the biscuit.

Also seems coding is the panacea now, good job as it appears that grammar and spelling might be surplus to requirements in the IT world.

Now if only some of us could get the fair tax treatment that some IT companies have.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

I think this pretty much sums it up. Do you really believe that the timing of this 'fabulous' step towards the sought after equalisation isn't very convenient?

The TUI basically signed up to a deal with the offer of talks. If ASTI had folded at the same time they'd be getting SFA now. Only reason they got this offer is in the hope that ASTI support crumbles. I'd say it could well work too.

I was wondering if we'll have a ballot on the new TUI deal? Is it signed, sealed and delivered now? When will be hear what the extra productivity is? I can see them leading up further up the garden path, God only knows what it is.

I'm waiting for Mike Murphy to jump out and tell me this is a wind up.