Deal to restore pay for newly-qualified teachers in INTO and TUI

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

I think this pretty much sums it up. Do you really believe that the timing of this 'fabulous' step towards the sought after equalisation isn't very convenient?

The TUI basically signed up to a deal with the offer of talks. If ASTI had folded at the same time they'd be getting SFA now. Only reason they got this offer is in the hope that ASTI support crumbles. I'd say it could well work too.

I was wondering if we'll have a ballot on the new TUI deal? Is it signed, sealed and delivered now? When will be hear what the extra productivity is? I can see them leading up further up the garden path, God only knows what it is.

The ASTI are only now balloting their membership on the pay parity issue.
The TUI did it in January, threatened strike action in February, got into talks on the back of it, and you think the result is only because the ASTI stayed out. The ASTI have been to busy fighting the JCT and Croke Park hours to do anything up to now on pay parity. Yes the timing of the announcement by the government was stage managed, but the deal was hammered out through months of negotiation, which some around here thought was impossible because we had signed up to the LRA.
I have great sympathy with my ASTI colleagues over S&S, but I think they need to take stock of everything that's going on now. They are in hole that I think they need to stop digging.

D4RK ONION

This thread is about the deal to restore pay. Another mod has deleted a few off topic posts. If you continue to post off topic, you will be carded and/or banned.

evolving_doors

ok folks, sorry about deleting a lot posts that took a lot of time to make and respond to.
As you can see, when yer explaining yer loosing. (I tried too )
Stick to OP and thread title, or take a punt and start a new thread.
Thanks
Mod.
P.s. Please do not respond to this warning on thread... Or sanctions warnings paddlins etc

acequion

The attitude by some here beggars belief! The ASTI are digging themselves into a hole says one, because they have the courage to go it alone when not for the first time their collegues in TUI cave in. Another sneers about a wind up when a poster makes the point that it is the threatened strike action from the union which represents the vast majority of the country's second level teachers that galvanised the Government into proposing something.As if it really was months of negotiation from TUI that sealed the deal!! TUI are now firmly straitjacketed within the LRA where their ability to effect real change is hugely compromised.So spare us the bragging and stop trying to play the big boys!

Remember 2001 when the TUI once again dumped the ASTI to strike alone and when that union's work to rule resulted in paid S&S for the first time? Which the TUI also benefited from.

Remember the vote on the HRA and how quickly TUI caved in as always but ASTI held out and at least won the concession of being able to opt out with a pay cut? Still very wrong and very limited but only for ASTI resistance everybody would have been stuck with S&S. And guess who also benefited from that?? Yup TUI!

And now that TUI is cosied up in bed with the Government, still doing the pointless CP hours, they think they're getting sweeties. They're now happy to settle for 55% pay restoration and presumably also happy to accept that 30% of Ireland's teachers are still casualised, double the EU average! And just where is that task force the Gov promised to look into it?? And do you really believe their promises, a side that has consistently reneged?

It is just so depressing to be sneered at by our own collegues in our own profession when we are battling on. Wow but what a success the divide and conquer strategy has been!

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

The attitude by some here beggars belief! The ASTI are digging themselves into a hole says one, because they have the courage to go it alone when not for the first time their collegues in TUI cave in. Another sneers about a wind up when a poster makes the point that it is the threatened strike action from the union which represents the vast majority of the country's second level teachers that galvanised the Government into proposing something.As if it really was months of negotiation from TUI that sealed the deal!! TUI are now firmly straitjacketed within the LRA where their ability to effect real change is hugely compromised.So spare us the bragging and stop trying to play the big boys!

Remember 2001 when the TUI once again dumped the ASTI to strike alone and when that union's work to rule resulted in paid S&S for the first time? Which the TUI also benefited from.

Remember the vote on the HRA and how quickly TUI caved in as always but ASTI held out and at least won the concession of being able to opt out with a pay cut? Still very wrong and very limited but only for ASTI resistance everybody would have been stuck with S&S. And guess who also benefited from that?? Yup TUI!

And now that TUI is cosied up in bed with the Government, still doing the pointless CP hours, they think they're getting sweeties. They're now happy to settle for 55% pay restoration and presumably also happy to accept that 30% of Ireland's teachers are still casualised, double the EU average! And just where is that task force the Gov promised to look into it?? And do you really believe their promises, a side that has consistently reneged?

It is just so depressing to be sneered at by our own collegues in our own profession when we are battling on. Wow but what a success the divide and conquer strategy has been!

If we're in the business of getting offended and blaming thats all fine.

Its not about ASTI v TUI.

The ASTI brigade are trying to belittle the gains made in talks by TUI and INTO. I accept that nothing happens in a vacuum and that of course there had to be someone looking over their shoulder at the bigger picture.

It's fairly disrespectful of you and others to rubbish what has happened and be up on your high horses.

It might not be what you wanted but TUI members accepted the LRA and trusted the TUI to deliver on the May agreement, they have done that. Thats their job.

As Christie says you want the same thing but took a different path. So be it, maybe youll get full restoration by Christmas and we will all look foolish in the TUI. But from where I was in May and from where i am now the LRA was and is the best option.

Although, funnily, post 2012 teacger in school was complaining today that now she'd be in the high tax bracket!!!!

doc_17

Yes the TUI aren't perfect, but the ASTI have lost the run of themselves with the new Junior Cycle. They got almost everything they wanted and still they rejected it! And that anger is driving them to make strange decisions.

evolving_doors

doc_17 wrote: »

Yes the TUI aren't perfect, but the ASTI have lost the run of themselves with the new Junior Cycle. They got almost everything they wanted and still they rejected it! And that anger is driving them to make strange decisions.

What has accepting the new junior cycle got to do with the restoration of pay?

Is it your position that you will accept whatever the govt. requires (by signing up to LR) and hope for better in the future?

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

Yes the TUI aren't perfect, but the ASTI have lost the run of themselves with the new Junior Cycle.

They got almost everything they wanted

and still they rejected it! And that anger is driving them to make strange decisions.

Not wanting to drag this thread off topic but that one point above shows how simplistically some people view the issues. The ASTI got almost nothing they wanted would be far closer to the truth.If you people are happy to pull the wool over your eyes,so be it.

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

Remember 2001 when the TUI once again dumped the ASTI to strike alone and when that union's work to rule resulted in paid S&S for the first time? Which the TUI also benefited from.

Maybe many TUI members would have liked to take industrial action back in 2001 but couldn't because their executive wouldn't hold a ballot.

rainbowtrout

acequion wrote: »

Not wanting to drag this thread off topic but that one point above shows how simplistically some people view the issues. The ASTI got almost nothing they wanted would be far closer to the truth.If you people are happy to pull the wool over your eyes,so be it.

Is it absolutely necessary to cast sweeping generalisations over thousands of teachers just because of their union membership?

seavill

Fightback Facebook just posted up to date comparison it appears that people didn't take into account that post 2012 started on point 1 instead of 3 so apparently the difference in pay is still as much as 70 percent gap

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Is it absolutely necessary to cast sweeping generalisations over thousands of teachers just because of their union membership?

I think the poster is referring to 'the union's position' rather than 'you' the poster. Although, maybe because unions DO represent thousands of teachers then it might be fair game to assign a poster's position as being representative of the union's.

But it's a good idea to remind folk that there's many who don't necessarily want to go agree with their union's stance (on both sides!).

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

Not wanting to drag this thread off topic but that one point above shows how simplistically some people view the issues. The ASTI got almost nothing they wanted would be far closer to the truth.If you people are happy to pull the wool over your eyes,so be it.

There were stated aims from both unions going into the JC talks. If the ASTI membership didn't like them then that's a problem with the Union leadership being out of touch. In TUI there was a congress motion in 2013 and that was the basis of the talks, all of what the TUI members sought was delivered. This was the same as the asti sought initially. Whatever changed in between.

There's no wool in my eyes.

man_no_plan

seavill wrote: »

Fightback Facebook just posted up to date comparison it appears that people didn't take into account that post 2012 started on point 1 instead of 3 so apparently the difference in pay is still as much as 70 percent gap

Is point 1 on the 2012 scale not roughly the same as point 3 on the 2011 scale?

There is nothing for the 2011 teachers granted but there are 3 scales merging into 2. Logically and hopefully the 2 will merge into one.

The agreement acknowledges that the hde allowance is to be revisited.

Also on posts they arevtalking about redesignating special duties posts as assistant principal ii, at least there seems to be some hope of them coming back. The day of having a b post to collect tea money is gone though.

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

There were stated aims from both unions going into the JC talks. If the ASTI membership didn't like them then that's a problem with the Union leadership being out of touch. In TUI there was a congress motion in 2013 and that was the basis of the talks, all of what the TUI members sought was delivered. This was the same as the asti sought initially. Whatever changed in between.

There's no wool in my eyes.

Have we not been over and over this? I have already pointed out repeatedly that it was not a question of any one simple issue, I have already pointed out why ASTI members were not satisfied and voted against it. This thread is about pay restoration,not JC. If you want to keep arguing about the whys and why nots of the JC why don't you open another thread?

acequion

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Is it absolutely necessary to cast sweeping generalisations over thousands of teachers just because of their union membership?

rainbowtrout,if you would read the preceding posts you would see that my "you people" was not aimed at the entire TUI membership but at those TUI posters I was arguing with.

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

Have we not been over and over this? I have already pointed out repeatedly that it was not a question of any one simple issue, I have already pointed out why ASTI members were not satisfied and voted against it. This thread is about pay restoration,not JC. If you want to keep arguing about the whys and why nots of the JC why don't you open another thread?

You started it!

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think the poster is referring to 'the union's position' rather than 'you' the poster. Although, maybe because unions DO represent thousands of teachers then it might be fair game to assign a poster's position as being representative of the union's.

But it's a good idea to remind folk that there's many who don't necessarily want to go agree with their union's stance (on both sides!).

No it's not fair game. The votes for and against LRA by both TUI and ASTI were not won with 100% of voters in favour of LRA. And many of the TUI posters on this forum voted no.

The view taken on this thread is a little disingenuous to be honest. It makes the assumption that TUI members must all be in favour of LRA, which is not true, while conveniently forgetting that a cohort of ASTI voters were in favour of it.

When posting on this thread you are engaging with the posters on the threats not an entire union. 'You people' is a bit of an insult

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

You started it!

Actually I didn't. If you bother to read back a few posts you will see that it was another poster who brought it up and I responded. And if you go back a few pages on this same thread you will see that myself and another poster exchanged a few posts on the topic where we both made our feelings clear.

It would be helpful if people followed the thread rather than a few posts.

acequion

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No it's not fair game. The votes for and against LRA by both TUI and ASTI were not won with 100% of voters in favour of LRA. And many of the TUI posters on this forum voted no.

The view taken on this thread is a little disingenuous to be honest. It makes the assumption that TUI members must all be in favour of LRA, which is not true, while conveniently forgetting that a cohort of ASTI voters were in favour of it.

When posting on this thread you are engaging with the posters on the threats not an entire union. 'You people' is a bit of an insult

You'd want to be a bit less sensitive. There's a lot more at stake here than offending people's feelings. Again I reiterate that "you people" was addressed to two or three posters who I was arguing /debating with at the time, not "you" specifically or TUI voters generally.

I am well aware that people voted for and against in both unions and that's democracy and we all need to respect the other's view. What has really dismayed me is the attitude of some posters towards the ASTI stance as we are all supposed to be collegues.

Corkgirl18

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is point 1 on the 2012 scale not roughly the same as point 3 on the 2011 scale?

There's about €2000 of a difference between the pre 2011 point 3 and post 2012 point 1 as far as I know. And no qualification allowance.

Green Peter

Another sellout, government about to screw young teachers just a little less, still being screwed and unions run with it, time for young teachers to set up a new union!

Chilli Con Kearney

Three payscales have been merged into two. Surely by agreeing to this, the TUI is going against the very essence of a union by consenting to workers being paid different pay for the same work? It completely goes against the principle of equal pay for equal work.

Instead of this being a step towards pay equalisation, this is enough in the government's eye and will become the new payscale when the old teachers are eventually flushed out. Sure if you agree to this, why would we offer more?!

Factor in elements such as droichead being reviewed and this really is shocking. A little pay improvement from a point of immorality in paying people unequally for the same work is traded against more cuts in conditions and probable increased workload? But sure it sounds great on the airwaves so that's ok. Those ASTI lads are just greedy, Joe.

Notorious

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Factor in elements such as droichead being reviewed and this really is shocking.

Considering the agreed TUI conditions are subject to reforms in schools, you'll see the TUI executive step down in their opposition of droichead next.

If it wasn't so serious it would be comical that the recent edition of the TUI newsletter had the slogan "equal pay for equal work" on its cover.

judeboy101

Notorious wrote: »

Considering the agreed TUI conditions are subject to reforms in schools, you'll see the TUI executive step down in their opposition of droichead next.

If it wasn't so serious it would be comical that the recent edition of the TUI newsletter had the slogan "equal pay for equal work" on its cover.

Any chance on an EILI5 on droichead and why its a bit scary. DES website on it is very vague and fluffy.

Notorious

judeboy101 wrote: »

Any chance on an EILI5 on droichead and why its a bit scary. DES website on it is very vague and fluffy.

I'm not too savvy on all the ins and outs but it is essentially a mentoring scheme for new teachers. For schools who partake in the droichead scheme, NQTs employed there only have to complete 4 hours of the dreaded NQT workshops.

They are then mentored by a teacher in the school; what the mentoring involves, I'm not too sure. The problem with the program is that it requires the principal to monitor some of the NQTs classes, which is what the unions vehemently oppose - and rightly so in my opinion.

So after having to complete a 2 year PME to qualify as a teacher (the second year of study seems to be very much tacked on), NQTs would now having to engage in inspections by other colleagues and their principal. There's most likely forms to be filled out etc.