Feedback on Feedback thread

TherapyBoy

mod note: this thread was moved from the site issues feedback thread in an effort to keep that thread on topic. This thread is on Feedback itself and boards.ie's reaction to it. please try to keep the posts on topic and constructive. we all like a good rant but you'll find that there is a perceived inverse relationship between rant and relevance


But this IS the feedback forum, isn't it?

Granted this thread is to do with technical issues. Other threads have been created to feed input back to HQ with regards to the way the site runs (or doesn't sometimes), moderation & admin, site layout, feedback on new stuff/beta/touch/mobile/responsive/legacy etc and all the stuff users are talking about here but they tend to run so far & then get shut down.

If you don't address the problems people are talking about you can't be upset when they won't stop talking about them.

I love Boards.ie, really I do but there are a lot of aspects about it that make my brain start to melt. I understand the site needs money in order to run, so I have no problem with spending €50 on subscribing every year, advertising content being presented or things like most of the Talk to forums, AMA events etc. But this advertising & financial generating shouldn't come to the detriment of your users. Recently, it seems like it does.

LoLth

TherapyBoy wrote: »

But this IS the feedback forum, isn't it?

yes but just like any forum on boards, threads have a topic. This thread [ the "whats wrong with the site" thread for technical issues] is for pointing out the problems with the SITE , not the forums/advertising strategy etc. its purpose is to help identify issues quicker so the devs can fix them.

Granted this thread is to do with technical issues. Other threads have been created to feed input back to HQ with regards to the way the site runs (or doesn't sometimes), moderation & admin, site layout, feedback on new stuff/beta/touch/mobile/responsive/legacy etc and all the stuff users are talking about here but they tend to run so far & then get shut down.

usually a thread gets shut down when the actual feedback has been given. You may have noticed that a lot of feedback threads would result in the same issues being raised...by the same posters...usually aimed at teh same forum/mod/cmod or process. Not all threads mind, but enough. Feedback became a court of public opinion and a place to get revenge on a mod. That made the actual feedback much less likely to be taken seriously. So, to make feedback more effective and to actually have a chance to address it and fix the issues being raised, we're trying to impose some structure on the feedback itself and how it is given. Feedback stopped working, it got better with some rules, then it slilpped again, it got better with more strict rules and then it started to slip again. So, rather than enforce rules , we're going to try to guide the discussion to make it stay relevant and useful to the mods/cmods/admins/staff rather than a place for angry users to vent to the detriment of the users that actually try to help.

If you don't address the problems people are talking about you can't be upset when they won't stop talking about them.

thats an assumption. Problems are being addressed. maybe not with instant fixes but they are being addressed. keep watching for a space that will be labelled "this".

I love Boards.ie, really I do but there are a lot of aspects about it that make my brain start to melt. I understand the site needs money in order to run, so I have no problem with spending €50 on subscribing every year, advertising content being presented or things like most of the Talk to forums, AMA events etc. But this advertising & financial generating shouldn't come to the detriment of your users.

completely agree with you here.

Recently, it seems like it does.

key word here is "seems" . it doesn't but I , and the rest of the admins and staff, do realise that we all need to do more to show that it doesn't.

LoLth

move to a new thread to keep discussion on topic.

I haven't put "polite" or "respectful" or"constructive" in the thread title but lets take that as a given. As well as opinions on feedback I (and the other admins) would be interested to hear your suggestions for how it could be improved and made more effective.

muffler

LoLth wrote: »

As well as opinions on feedback I (and the other admins) would be interested to hear your suggestions for how it could be improved and made more effective.

Try fixing it....permanently

Lovely Bloke

The main frustration is that when a thread is closed and the admin closing it types something like this (this is an actual quote)

What now? Now its time for the admins to do their job and take the feedback and turn it into something that can be incorporated into site policy. We will also work with the Cmods to see what way forum rules can be influenced and with mods to make them aware of any changes required.

No Admin ever comes back to the thread and tells anyone what was discussed at an Admin level, what the outcomes were and what changes were deemed necessary, or not.

Feedback is always one way, then disappears into a black hole, the pear tree house or wherever, and then nothing. Silence. Until the next feedback thread, rinse and repeat.

Lovely Bloke

Sorry, I'd also suggest not starting this type of thread on a Friday evening, when people can post and post and expect replies from "higher ups", but then get the "we are all volunteers with lives" line, it's incredibly frustrating.

LoLth

well maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised this time.

as for starting on a friday, it was started because of the direction the site issue thread had taken. Perhaps a better option would have been to remove posts from the other thread to get it back on topic? or just delete TherapyBoy's post for being off topic instead of actually addressing it?

While there might not be an admin around to give instant response I'm sure civil feedback can still be left and be addressed when an admin or cmod or mod or even staff member does pop in. Also, no one has given that "line"...or rather stated that completely true fact... I'm not sure I'd consider getting preemptively pissed at the admins constructive feedback to be honest.

Lovely Bloke

Who's pissed?

I'm watching football and drinking beer, certainly not annoyed about anything.

I think a good tactic for threads like this may be to "close them up" each evening, maintain a kind of "office hours" like the Talk To... forums, seeing as this forum itself now appears under the Talk To... banner at the top there, it is essentially fulfilling that role for Boards.ie "Ltd".

Split the post away from the thread it was to be moved from, leave your own post in the new thread with a note "Will re-open Monday", then actually do come back and re-open the thread.

ibarelycare

What's the point of this thread? How many threads have there been in the same vein, with users pointing out all the problems that they have with the site, only for it to be largely ignored by the boards staff and eventually closed down? The site is a piece of sh1t at this stage. Barely a day goes by where there aren't technical issues. The subscription renewal feature has been borked for months, and now that Niamh is on holidays no one else is dealing with it. A poster is complaining that they paid a subscription a week ago and it's being completely ignored. I feel bad for the few admins who repeatedly pop up in these threads trying to defend the site and its running cos it seems they care more than the actual owners and staff.

TherapyBoy

ibarelycare wrote: »

The subscription renewal feature has been borked for months, and now that Niamh is on holidays no one else is dealing with it. A poster is complaining that they paid a subscription a week ago and it's being completely ignored.

This alone is crazy!

I don't know what went wrong with the automatic renewal for subscriptions & I'm certain fixing whatever did happen is far beyond me, but someone is slacking off here. If Niamh goes on holidays then the responsibility for manually processing the subscription renewals has to fall to someone.

There's another thread in Helpdesk where a user posted asking about getting his subscription acknowledged & nothing. For 3 days! It might have been sorted by now (hopefully for their sake) but there's no reply on the thread from whoever is supposed to be filling in for Niamh, no apology or even thanking the post.

What is going on?

kneemos

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

The main frustration is that when a thread is closed and the admin closing it types something like this (this is an actual quote)



No Admin ever comes back to the thread and tells anyone what was discussed at an Admin level, what the outcomes were and what changes were deemed necessary, or not.

Feedback is always one way, then disappears into a black hole, the pear tree house or wherever, and then nothing. Silence. Until the next feedback thread, rinse and repeat.

Usual array of glib answers, everything is fine,move along now.

Maybe we could have a few constructive ideas from management instead of ignoring those that are trying.

LoLth

kneemos wrote: »

Usual array of glib answers, everything is fine,move along now.

Maybe we could have a few constructive ideas from management instead of ignoring those that are trying.

despite the negative intention thats not a bad idea. More "what would the users think of...." before a decision is taken on a direction.

the problem there is that you cannot please everyone. If action has to wait for consensus then the site will remain static, however if an action is taken and 10 posters have vehemently opposed it and another 10 have wholeheartedly supported it then one group or the other is going to be convinced that the "higher ups" are actively ignoring their feedback or opinion.

kneemos

LoLth wrote: »

despite the negative intention thats not a bad idea. More "what would the users think of...." before a decision is taken on a direction.

the problem there is that you cannot please everyone. If action has to wait for consensus then the site will remain static, however if an action is taken and 10 posters have vehemently opposed it and another 10 have wholeheartedly supported it then one group or the other is going to be convinced that the "higher ups" are actively ignoring their feedback or opinion.

I think at this stage you should be thinking drastic action to try and save what's left of the site.Interestingly it appears business as usual.

Wibbs

LoLth wrote: »

the problem there is that you cannot please everyone. If action has to wait for consensus then the site will remain static, however if an action is taken and 10 posters have vehemently opposed it and another 10 have wholeheartedly supported it then one group or the other is going to be convinced that the "higher ups" are actively ignoring their feedback or opinion.

Which can and does happen L and is all well and good, however and it's a big bloody however the scenario you describe above is not applicable to the Boards search that doesn't, the subscriptions mechanism that hasn't in months and the responsive site that quite simply isn't. Never mind the mind numbingly dumb notion to put all the huge range of topics under one drop down, or the close account feature. These are black and white issues that directly impact the user experience of the members and the communities on this site. There are no grey areas with people who want to subscribe and no grey area for those who want to search.

The Wolverine

I thought distilled media got rid of boards from its portfolio? According to Niamh in a thread recently when someone mentioned DM, Niamh said "boards is no longer a part of distilled media, its just us now"

If that's the case who's in charge, as in owner wise? Surely there should be more leeway now for changes wanted by users?

Like I mean apparently all the changes and that were from DM and it's "consultants" and that's why apparently admins and that couldnt really do anything to change from what they were told.

Is the responsive site to be completed in the near future? Is the money even there now what with boards being in the red before the takeover and now being dropped? With staff and other costs is this site going to remain springing leaks that's won't or should i say cant be patched?

Im not being smart or argumentative at all. I think at this stage the cards need to be laid on the table tbh.

Cookie_Monster

The Wolverine wrote: »

Is the responsive site to be completed in the near future?

That's a good question actually, the responsive site testing forum will soon be a year old!!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1710

Nearly a year with a half baked, semi live, beta test stage mess of a site, what other company would consider such as being acceptable to its user base?

LoLth

Wibbs wrote: »

Which can and does happen L and is all well and good, however and it's a big bloody however the scenario you describe above is not applicable to the Boards search that doesn't, the subscriptions mechanism that hasn't in months and the responsive site that quite simply isn't. Never mind the mind numbingly dumb notion to put all the huge range of topics under one drop down, or the close account feature. These are black and white issues that directly impact the user experience of the members and the communities on this site. There are no grey areas with people who want to subscribe and no grey area for those who want to search.

barring topic shuffle and account closure, all of the above are technical issues which , while important, are not issues that the admins, cmods and mods can help with. And they are issues that have been raised with the staff (In the feedback thread on site issues, by PM and in person by the admins).

For the two I can address:

topic reshuffle: I have to admit I don't like the end result that we have but it is an improvement on the huge list we had before. The result I would have liked would have been a tag based system where a thread could belong to multiple forums depending on its content (search for politics and you get political tagged threads from all over the site, go to politics and you get a collection of threads that are primarily politics tagged) but that is not possible on the default (legacy) site - which is the case with a lot of the features I have suggested and discussed in the past. It does need to be looked at again but I think the site needs to be finalised first before we can discuss what the best way to navigate it is (and this will require dev time)

Account Closure: stemmed from the "right to be forgotten" hype and the overreaction of the public and media. I agree its a load of crap and it doesn't help the community. I have raised a request to review this as it is a legal policy that admins cannot change without fresh consultation by the office with their legal advisors. I wouldn't like to see it removed completely as its there for users that feel the need to avail of it but I think that it could be implemented in a better way.

For teh technical issues you've mentioned, I cannot answer or address them. You will need to address those to the staff/devs in the site issues thread. The admins will continue to push from our section and if we get an answer that can be posted (there is information that admins do not have access to or have only partial access that is considered sensitive to the business) before one is given in the issues thread one of us will update feedback as soon as we get one.

I get that its frustrating. And I get that its feedback after feedback. Discussion usually continues behind the scenes until we get to a "right, this is what we're going to do" and then we discover that there is a technical restriction or a legal one that means the decided action is not possible and we go back to discussion. Admittedly I dont think we ever thought to specifically update a feedback thread before, usually we just rolled the current state of things into our responses and took that to be the update process. So first thing we can change is how we provide updates and responses to feedback. On thread will be lost in the discussion, so maybe a "RESPONSE:" tag with a link to the thread being responded to?

the groutch

LoLth wrote: »

The result I would have liked would have been a tag based system where a thread could belong to multiple forums depending on its content (search for politics and you get political tagged threads from all over the site, go to politics and you get a collection of threads that are primarily politics tagged) but that is not possible on the default (legacy) site - which is the case with a lot of the features I have suggested and discussed in the past.

I really hope this never happens, it's one step away from turning the site into another reddit.
The well defined categories and subcategories, making the site easy to navigate is a large part of it's appeal, and changing that will alienate a huge chunk of the userbase.

Taltos

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Nearly a year with a half baked, semi live, beta test stage mess of a site, what other company would consider such as being acceptable to its user base?

Wow, has it really been that long? Most days it feels longer.

Good and fair question though Cookie_Monster.
You're spot on, such a scenario would not be acceptable I would imagine to most multinationals, although it would surprise you what happens behind the shiny landing pages of most dot coms. I still have the scars from the last one I worked with, can't say more due to NDAs but man, some "people" are very good at window-dressing...

In some ways you're right, other sites aka FB wouldn't I imagine tolerate two versions of the site running in parallel. A year or more ago the new site would have been deployed as the new and improved site (bugs be-damned) and we'd have been issued new T&Cs to argue about for a few weeks until we got distracted by something else from that team. I know this sounds trite and to a degree it is as the UI change we saw with the first iteration of the new site/platform was huge. Some of you might remember my comments at the time so you'll know I wasn't a fan at launch. And in fact I still use the classic site and the vanilla skin, and yes like others I also still hanker after some of the older versions of boards but hey everything changes.

In talking to HQ about this very topic, we've seen that this has been almost a perfect storm in terms of things hitting us, DDOS attacks, having to move to a service like Cloudflare, classic site technology going eol, new site missing the target (I'm being nice here for a change). With the classic site we're now running into challenges in making improvements where making what should be a small tweak potentially causing everything else to stop working. So what to do? Well while HQ is focused on generating revenue to keep the lights on they are just as focused on trying to improve the site not just in the short term but in the longer term and know that without the posters there is no site.

Upcoming immediate changes based on feedback
1. Prison - due to the sensitive nature of some of the site bans and the call to stop embarrassing posters (genuine or other) we'll shortly make this forum private.
2. DRF - similarly we'll review with your continued input if we should replicate that to the Dispute forum and are looking at how we can streamline the review process by removing one of the layers to make it simpler for everyone.

LoLth

the groutch wrote: »

I really hope this never happens, it's one step away from turning the site into another reddit.
The well defined categories and subcategories, making the site easy to navigate is a large part of it's appeal, and changing that will alienate a huge chunk of the userbase.

Good points. I would not have suggested abandoning the categories/sub-categories completely, just weighting content tags so that categories become containers for similar content and to offer an alternative navigation/search function. Users would, ideally, be able to read based on forums they follow or frequent but also follow threads related to a topic based on tags without regard for whether its light hearted banter or strictly monitored legal advice. (so all threads on a court case regardless of the choice of location for example) which would also feed into search.

However, as I said this is not currently possible on the original site. if it does become an option in the future, i would imagine the original site system/function would remain as an optional component. maybe the old category menu could be introduced as a user preference? (maybe but thats a site dev issue)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

_Tombstone_

The Wolverine wrote: »

I thought distilled media got rid of boards from its portfolio? According to Niamh in a thread recently when someone mentioned DM, Niamh said "boards is no longer a part of distilled media, its just us now"

If that's the case who's in charge, as in owner wise? Surely there should be more leeway now for changes wanted by users?

Like I mean apparently all the changes and that were from DM and it's "consultants" and that's why apparently admins and that couldnt really do anything to change from what they were told.

Is the responsive site to be completed in the near future? Is the money even there now what with boards being in the red before the takeover and now being dropped? With staff and other costs is this site going to remain springing leaks that's won't or should i say cant be patched?

Im not being smart or argumentative at all. I think at this stage the cards need to be laid on the table tbh.

From all the threads about boards ownership in the past I think it's best not to believe what you read about boards finances or ownership as its just accounting. Not clever accounting, just accounting. Loopholes exist for a reason.

dudara

The Wolverine wrote: »

I thought distilled media got rid of boards from its portfolio? According to Niamh in a thread recently when someone mentioned DM, Niamh said "boards is no longer a part of distilled media, its just us now"

If that's the case who's in charge, as in owner wise? Surely there should be more leeway now for changes wanted by users?

Like I mean apparently all the changes and that were from DM and it's "consultants" and that's why apparently admins and that couldnt really do anything to change from what they were told.

Is the responsive site to be completed in the near future? Is the money even there now what with boards being in the red before the takeover and now being dropped? With staff and other costs is this site going to remain springing leaks that's won't or should i say cant be patched?

Im not being smart or argumentative at all. I think at this stage the cards need to be laid on the table tbh.

The short answer to this is that Boards and DM are owned by the same owners. However, Boards is no longer part of DM.

_Tombstone_

Taltos wrote: »

Upcoming immediate changes based on feedback
1. Prison - due to the sensitive nature of some of the site bans and the call to stop embarrassing posters (genuine or other) we'll shortly make this forum private.
2. DRF - similarly we'll review with your continued input if we should replicate that to the Dispute forum and are looking at how we can streamline the review process by removing one of the layers to make it simpler for everyone.

I'd like to see the feedback that wanted them changed to private.

kneemos

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

I'd like to see the feedback that wanted them changed to private.

There was some adamant it shouldn't be public,just as many saying it was harmless fun.

Adds to the extreme conservative nature of the site and it's demise.

LoLth

making prison private will allow admins to request details from users to prove that they are not legitimate without having to rely on a post remaining unapproved to protect the data.

Also, to be fair, its no-one else's business if x or Y user is banned for some reason, its between that user and the boards.ie admins or staff.

feedback in the past was that the process was broken because of the fact that it was viewed as entertainment for the masses and discouraging to those that have a legitimate appeal. Making it private will allow us to make it less of a prison and more of a private meeting room.

The added benefit is that without an audience, spammers/trolls/attention seekers lose their platform/soapbox/stage .


many of the same arguments can be applied to the dispute resolution forum.

I get that these aren't the most ground-breaking changes and they don't fix the most immediate concerns but they are something we can do now without external resources (I think) and its a start.

kneemos

LoLth wrote: »

making prison private will allow admins to request details from users to prove that they are not legitimate without having to rely on a post remaining unapproved to protect the data.

Also, to be fair, its no-one else's business if x or Y user is banned for some reason, its between that user and the boards.ie admins or staff.

feedback in the past was that the process was broken because of the fact that it was viewed as entertainment for the masses and discouraging to those that have a legitimate appeal. Making it private will allow us to make it less of a prison and more of a private meeting room.

The added benefit is that without an audience, spammers/trolls/attention seekers lose their platform/soapbox/stage .


many of the same arguments can be applied to the dispute resolution forum.

I get that these aren't the most ground-breaking changes and they don't fix the most immediate concerns but they are something we can do now without external resources (I think) and its a start.

Trying to ensure nobody gets offended or put out in any way seems to be a theme.

The Hill Billy

kneemos wrote: »

Trying to ensure nobody gets offended or put out in any way seems to be a theme.

I don't know how you got that from LoLth's post. The mooted changes may be made for the reasons given - not for fear of offending someone.

The Wolverine

Just on prison being nobodies business. I have a feeling user uproar over the guy who created the safe in my shed thread in AH who got unfairly banned by trigger happy buffybot was all that got him unbanned.

As for entertainment for the masses, the way some of those people get talked to is a joke, whatever about losing patience with a 100th time rereg troll, the guy in the example above was one.

Not to mention if two accounts use the same network, it could be a workplace or college. There's no bit of leeway given from some of the threads I've seen.

I remember one admin telling a guy have a word with your flat mate about his posting style so if it wasn't you, I mean seriously.

Now maybe there's more you can use to tell I don't know about but these were guys in completey diff forums and all was used was the IP to ban one cause another account had a ban from it.

A bit of common sense could be applied.

LuckyLloyd

What's the exit strategy when the site fails from a commercial perspective? Sounds like it won't be possible to maintain without the apparatus of a commercial entity. Seems a shame that at a certain point the lights will go out and years of content will be lost.

the groutch

I think one of the benefits of having the prison forum visable is that it makes the admins accountable for their actions.

There was a phase when admins were very disrespectful/condescending to some of the banned members, including that whole quoting bible verses thing, and was only stopped because onlookers were able to highlight it to staff.