Poll: would you vote to "re-peel da ate"

Tasden

wonderfullife wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

My ex booked her flights on a sunday morning for a Monday morning appointment at Marie Stopes clinic.

Left Dublin airport at 655am and had her appointment just after 9am and was home late-afternoon.

If abortion-on-demand was legal here, what extra time would she have had to consider implications or re-consider going through with it?

Zero.

The earliest appointment she could have gotten in dublin would have been the exact same. Yeah, she'd have got an extra hour or 2 in bed, instead of getting up at 515am.

You're point re: travel is ridiculous.

With low-budget airlines and proximity to UK airports, the time involved and expense involved is minimal and most women are home same day.

A flight to Manchester can be, in many cases, cheaper than a taxi or train from your house to a clinic and back. And depending on traffic involved it can take the same amount of time.

Of all the arguments i've read during this debate, this is the most ridiculous and facetious one of the lot.

You're making blanket assumptions that women need to book expensive flights, hotel rooms etc in advance and that the pressure of the expense leads them to a situation where they go "feck it, i might as well now".

The biggest expense in an abortion for Irish women is most certainly not the travel and even with legalized abortion in Ireland it will most certainly not be the travel either.

€560 is the current cost of a non-surgical under-14-weeks procedure at Marie Stops (who helpfully offer a small discount if booking from Ireland). Flights to Manchester are readily available on budget airlines at short notice anywhere from a tenner to 60 quid.

Any argument that travel or costs associated with travel have any impact on the likelihood of a woman proceeding with the abortion is the most ridiculous crap i've read in my entire life.

As you say it's cheaper before the 14 week mark. And last minute flights are cheaper. So the sooner you book everything the more cost effective it will be. Waiting and thinking about things means you're not getting those lower costs. If you only have to travel into dublin for a next day appointment you can think about what you want to do and leave it till the 12th week to decide what you're going to do without having to factor in everything else and sort it all out in a panic before you have time to consider what it is you really want to do.

Elliott S

No

thee glitz wrote: »

And in some cases, that appears to be correct.

In vanishingly few cases. Fifty women? That is statistically nothing.

Elliott S

No

Dick phelan wrote: »

Because something is already happening isn't a reason to make it legal, going back to the drug situation i used earlier, people are using drugs every day in every town in this country but society atm believes that it is wrong, likewise with abortion if you believe what someone is doing is wrong then you aren't going to make it legal, if you make something legal it means the society agrees with what someone is doing, many people don't agree with abortion just because people have them anyway doesn't mean they should be allowed.

You asked people if they would be OK with drug legalisation and seem to have ignored the responses you received.

pauliebdub

No

It depends on what will be put in place, such as abortion time limits etc but I'd be happy with a system similar to the UK so I'm inclined to repeal it, I don't want misogynistic religious based laws in this country and I can't stand the small but very vocal religious lobby that advocate such laws and who were very vocal during the marriage equality referendum.

Elliott S

No

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

That's not true. If abortion was available here (and I hope that it is with regards to 0-12 weeks) then of course more women here would avail of it. It's common sense. There is very little that people are willing to travel to do that they wouldn't do more if they could just do it here without having to travel.

You don't know that it's not true. If abortions were legal here, people could make the appointment then sit back and fully consider whether it is what they want without having to make travel plans in a panic. It resonates with this woman anyway.

wonderfullife

Tasden wrote: »

As you say it's cheaper before the 14 week mark. And last minute flights are cheaper. So the sooner you book everything the more cost effective it will be. Waiting and thinking about things means you're not getting those lower costs. If you only have to travel into dublin for a next day appointment you can think about what you want to do and leave it till the 12th week to decide what you're going to do without having to factor in everything else and sort it all out in a panic before you have time to consider what it is you really want to do.

Disagree 100%. The time spent to reach a decision is not impacted by having to book a 55 minute flight on Ryanair. When the time comes to book the flight, the decision is made.

Nobody books an abortion for weeks and weeks in advance. Once the decision is made, the flights are booked.

People are talking complete nonsense. Dublin to Liverpool (in miles) is nearly half the distance as Dublin to Kerry.

This whole notion of travel being an expense and an ordeal is total nonsense. It's neither far nor expensive nor time consuming.

Now that doesn't mean to say it's right or wrong but those are facts.

amdublin

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

Disagree 100%. The time spent to reach a decision is not impacted by having to book a 55 minute flight on Ryanair. When the time comes to book the flight, the decision is made.

Nobody books an abortion for weeks and weeks in advance. Once the decision is made, the flights are booked.

People are talking complete nonsense. Dublin to Liverpool (in miles) is nearly half the distance as Dublin to Kerry.

This whole notion of travel being an expense and an ordeal is total nonsense. It's neither far nor expensive nor time consuming.

Now that doesn't mean to say it's right or wrong but those are facts.

Put yourself in the mind of someone with a crisis pregnancy. A trip to Liverpool or London or Europe feels like a million miles away.


If abortion was available in Dublin or Kerry neither the Dublin woman or the Kerry woman need to even think about anything else except the most important decision of all: is this abortion the right choice for me.

Tasden

wonderfullife wrote: »

Disagree 100%. The time spent to reach a decision is not impacted by having to book a 55 minute flight on Ryanair. When the time comes to book the flight, the decision is made.

Nobody books an abortion for weeks and weeks in advance. Once the decision is made, the flights are booked.

People are talking complete nonsense. Dublin to Liverpool (in miles) is nearly half the distance as Dublin to Kerry.

This whole notion of travel being an expense and an ordeal is total nonsense. It's neither far nor expensive nor time consuming.

Now that doesn't mean to say it's right or wrong but those are facts.

It's not flights alone and booking a flight that suits. The time of the flights may require a stay overnight wherever it is. Requires additional money for hotel. Making the booking, ensuring the date and time fits in with flights available and hotel rooms available. Then planning that around work- two days annual leave from work, same if a partner is going with you. Babysitters for children being left at home. There is so much to consider other than the click of a mouse and the cost of cheap Ryanair flights.

Elliott S

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

Disagree 100%. The time spent to reach a decision is not impacted by having to book a 55 minute flight on Ryanair. When the time comes to book the flight, the decision is made.

Nobody books an abortion for weeks and weeks in advance. Once the decision is made, the flights are booked.

People are talking complete nonsense. Dublin to Liverpool (in miles) is nearly half the distance as Dublin to Kerry.

This whole notion of travel being an expense and an ordeal is total nonsense. It's neither far nor expensive nor time consuming.

Now that doesn't mean to say it's right or wrong but those are facts.

No, not facts. As someone who has considered before the logistics of travelling to procure an abortion, there is a huge difference between getting an abortion in your own country and one in another jurisdiction.

And actually, last minute flights are usually the most expensive by far, as anyone who has had to travel home from another country in a hurry knows. So for many, the flights need to be booked well in advance which encourages rushing to a decision. And many women will book an overnight stay in the UK as they will be concerned of feeling unwell and not being able to travel the same day. The costs rack up very quickly. So, once someone has booked all this shít, they might feel psychologically more locked in. I think it's a very interesting point amdublin has raised and it's no surprise to see the posters that have poo-pooed the notion.

thee glitz

Elliott S wrote: »

In vanishingly few cases. Fifty women? That is statistically nothing.

That is the number for 8 abortions. What about the 19,000 who have had 3?

LordSutch

steddyeddy wrote: »

Poll: would you vote to "repeal the eight"?

I would vote to repeal the eight. What way would you vote?

Whatever happened to the th?

The eighth (8th) amendment.

wonderfullife

amdublin wrote: »

Put yourself in the mind of someone with a crisis pregnancy. A trip to Liverpool or London or Europe feels like a million miles away.


If abortion was available in Dublin or Kerry neither the Dublin woman or the Kerry woman need to even think about anything else except the most important decision of all: is this abortion the right choice for me.

That's the only decision they should be thinking about anyway. Regardless.

The main cost of an abortion is the abortion itself. By far. It's 90% of the entire cost. That cost remains the same if it's legalized in Ireland.

In fact, that cost will likely go up if available in Ireland. Purely because so many people have campaigned for it to be here, so initially at least places will be able to charge much higher prices than in the UK because they won't have to worry about competition from UK based clinics.


Incidentally, people go on about the 8th Amendment as if it's this archaic piece of legislation from the 1800's, like most of the American Amendments.

It was 1983. It had 843,000 people in support of the Amendment. It had an overwhelming mandate from the people of Ireland at that time.

Anybody saying it never belonged in our constitution is disrespecting the democratic will of the people of this Island. A near-67% majority on a turnout of 54% is the democratic will of the people.

It is, of course, reasonable to see if the democratic will of the people has changed over the course of that time but get it right - the 8th Amendment fully belongs in our Constitution as the democrat will of the nation.

Elliott S

No

thee glitz wrote: »

That is the number for 8 abortions. What about the 19,000 who have had 3?

Big ol' difference between 3 and 8. 3 could be over many years. And 19,000 is still a very low number in such a high population country.

Outlaw Pete

Elliott S wrote: »

You don't know that it's not true. If abortions were legal here, people could make the appointment then sit back and fully consider whether it is what they want without having to make travel plans in a panic. It resonates with this woman anyway.

I have never heard such rubbish in all my life and that comes from someone who is in favour of 0-12 week abortions being available here (given that they would undoubtedly reduce the amount of Irish women travelling to the UK to have later term abortions). I believe that as it *makes sense*. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever though to say that if abortion was available here less women might avail of if it because they would have more time to think about it. Seriously, you are convincing yourselves over the most absurd stuff just because it sounds good. There is no rational behind any of it though.

Elliott S

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

That's the only decision they should be thinking about anyway. Regardless.

The main cost of an abortion is the abortion itself. By far. It's 90% of the entire cost. That cost remains the same if it's legalized in Ireland.

In fact, that cost will likely go up if available in Ireland. Purely because so many people have campaigned for it to be here, so initially at least places will be able to charge much higher prices than in the UK because they won't have to worry about competition from UK based clinics.


Incidentally, people go on about the 8th Amendment as if it's this archaic piece of legislation from the 1800's, like most of the American Amendments.

It was 1983. It had 843,000 people in support of the Amendment. It had an overwhelming mandate from the people of Ireland at that time.

Anybody saying it never belonged in our constitution is disrespecting the democratic will of the people of this Island. A near-67% majority on a turnout of 54% is the democratic will of the people.

It is, of course, reasonable to see if the democratic will of the people has changed over the course of that time but get it right - the 8th Amendment fully belongs in our Constitution as the democrat will of the nation.

Nobody disputes that. But nobody under 50 in Ireland has voted on this. That's insane. I think it's something that should be put to the public every generation or so.

amdublin

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

That's the only decision they should be thinking about anyway. Regardless.

Are you for real with your "regardless"????


Of course that is the only decision they should be thinking about. But because of the 8th Amendment there is a million other things they have to think about. And you just dismiss all that a woman has to go through to obtain an abortion if she chooses as "regardless"


Look I am happy what you and your ex decided worked out for you and her. That's fine for you. For loads of other women things work out differently. And that's fine for them

thee glitz

Elliott S wrote: »

Big ol' difference between 3 and 8. 3 could be over many years. And 19,000 is still a very low number in such a high population country.

19,000 is for at least 3, so far. There's a bit of a difference, but 3 still qualifies as relying on abortion.

Elliott S

No

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I have never heard such rubbish in all my life and that comes from someone who is in favour of 0-12 week abortions being available here (given that they would undoubtedly reduce the amount of Irish women travelling to the UK to have later term abortions). I believe that as it *makes sense*. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever though to say that if abortion was available here less women might avail of if it because they would have more time to think about it. Seriously, you are convincing yourselves over the most absurd stuff just because it sounds good. There is no rational behind any of it though.

It's still your opinion only so you simply can't definitively say that it's "not true". You believe it's not true. There's a difference. To me, what amdublin said makes sense. A whole lot of sense. I'm not proclaiming that she is definitely right because of that though. At least I am willing to consider her point though instead of closed-mindedly scoffing at it.

Outlaw Pete

Elliott S wrote: »

It's still your opinion only so you simply can't definitively say that it's "not true".

Okay, IMO, it's not true. Better? And I always consider what people say. Not for very long, granted, but I do consider it.

Elliott S

No

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Okay, IMO, it's not true. Better? And I always consider what people say. Not for very long, granted, but I do consider it.

Yes, much better.

January

No

Women who order abortion pills online to take at home have up to two weeks to consider whether the abortion is the right thing for them. 3 women a day have these types of abortions in Ireland. So that's 15 women a day, 12 that travel and 3 that don't. Abortion is free on the NHS so why shouldn't it be free here for women who qualify for free healthcare?

LordSutch

Question; Is the UK England the only place Irish women go for abortions?

January

No

LordSutch wrote: »

Question; Is the UK England the only place Irish women go for abortions?

Nope, Netherlands is another place they go to.

https://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics

amdublin

No

LordSutch wrote: »

Question; Is the UK England the only place Irish women go for abortions?

No. For some reason I have Spain in my head??? But I could be completely wrong on that.


I suppose London/Liverpool/Manchester is the nearest place for Irish woen to travel to have abortions.

Elliott S

No

LordSutch wrote: »

Question; Is the UK England the only place Irish women go for abortions?

I wouldn't think so but it's probably the most frequently chosen option.

thee glitz

Elliott S wrote: »

Big ol' difference between 3 and 8. 3 could be over many years. And 19,000 is still a very low number in such a high population country.

It's still quite a few, but then I'd say 1 is too many.

January wrote: »

Women who order abortion pills online to take at home have up to two weeks to consider whether the abortion is the right thing for them. 3 women a day have these types of abortions in Ireland. So that's 15 women a day, 12 that travel and 3 that don't. Abortion is free on the NHS so why shouldn't it be free here for women who qualify for free healthcare?

Because it's illegal here, because it has been deemed to be wrong. It's harmful to society to promote ambivilence to human life.

January

No

thee glitz wrote: »

It's still quite a few, but then I'd say 1 is too many.



Because it's illegal here, because it has been deemed to be wrong. It's harmful to society to promote ambivilence to human life.

I meant if it wasn't illegal here.

thee glitz

January wrote: »

I meant if it wasn't illegal here.

I'd say the state wouldn't pay, unless it was necessary. Hopefully that's the same as now.

January

No

thee glitz wrote: »

I'd say the state wouldn't pay, unless it was necessary. Hopefully that's the same as now.

Hopefully it's not and it's free for women who are entitled to free healthcare such as medical cards.

thee glitz

January wrote: »

Hopefully it's not and it's free for women who are entitled to free healthcare such as medical cards.

It's under only very limited circumstances the abortion could be considered healthcare.

January

No

thee glitz wrote: »

It's under only very limited circumstances the abortion could be considered healthcare.

I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about in the future if the 8th is repealed and abortion becomes legal here that, like on the nhs, it will be available for free here to women who have access to free healthcare.

thee glitz

January wrote: »

I'm not talking about now. I'm talking about in the future if the 8th is repealed and abortion becomes legal here that, like on the nhs, it will be available for free here to women who have access to free healthcare.

I'm talking about in general. Unless medically necessary, abortion is akin to manslaughter. So paying taxes to support lifestyle abortioners is bs.

Cosmicfox

No

I'd vote to repeal.

It's about time Ireland looked after it's own problems, instead of sending women off to the UK.

Since this whole debate got brought back into the spotlight I've actually gotten to spend some time as a student on a ward that provides abortions so I think I have enough info on the matter now.

thee glitz

Cosmicfox wrote: »

I'd vote to repeal.

It's about time Ireland looked after it's own problems, instead of sending women off to the UK.

Since this whole debate got brought back into the spotlight I've actually gotten to spend some time as a student on a ward that provides abortions so I think I have enough info on the matter now.

Ireland does not send people abroad to have abortions any more than it sends people abroad to have necessary care not available here.

What info do you have?

Cosmicfox

No

thee glitz wrote: »

Ireland does not send people abroad to have abortions any more than it sends people abroad to have necessary care not available here.

What info do you have?

It's an issue the country has so far refused to deal with anyways. And there were a few Irish women there having it done because they can't at home. Not nearly as many as hospitals in other parts I was told.

How an actual abortion is carried out. How it actually is for the woman going through it. That sort of thing

Most of the staff on that ward though firmly believe Ireland will never change.

January

No

thee glitz wrote: »

I'm talking about in general. Unless medically necessary, abortion is akin to manslaughter. So paying taxes to support lifestyle abortioners is bs.

BS for you maybe, but not for others. Medical procedures are already free for people in this country on a public system. An abortion is a medical procedure, whether it is for 'lifestyle' reasons or otherwise. So, it's not farfetched to think that abortion wouldn't be free for women who have access to free healthcare, akin to the UK system.

I'm not going to continue to have this argument with you, though, it's clear we'll never agree since we both have such different views about it.

ToddyDoody

After eights being the official confectionary of the repeal side.

eviltwin

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

My ex booked her flights on a sunday morning for a Monday morning appointment at Marie Stopes clinic.

Left Dublin airport at 655am and had her appointment just after 9am and was home late-afternoon.

If abortion-on-demand was legal here, what extra time would she have had to consider implications or re-consider going through with it?

Zero.

The earliest appointment she could have gotten in dublin would have been the exact same. Yeah, she'd have got an extra hour or 2 in bed, instead of getting up at 515am.

You're point re: travel is ridiculous.

With low-budget airlines and proximity to UK airports, the time involved and expense involved is minimal and most women are home same day.

A flight to Manchester can be, in many cases, cheaper than a taxi or train from your house to a clinic and back. And depending on traffic involved it can take the same amount of time.

Of all the arguments i've read during this debate, this is the most ridiculous and facetious one of the lot.

You're making blanket assumptions that women need to book expensive flights, hotel rooms etc in advance and that the pressure of the expense leads them to a situation where they go "feck it, i might as well now".

The biggest expense in an abortion for Irish women is most certainly not the travel and even with legalized abortion in Ireland it will most certainly not be the travel either.

€560 is the current cost of a non-surgical under-14-weeks procedure at Marie Stops (who helpfully offer a small discount if booking from Ireland). Flights to Manchester are readily available on budget airlines at short notice anywhere from a tenner to 60 quid.

Any argument that travel or costs associated with travel have any impact on the likelihood of a woman proceeding with the abortion is the most ridiculous crap i've read in my entire life.

My abortion cost 650 euros not including flights and accommodation. It also cost a days work because I had to take it at my own expense. We also had to organise a childminder for our daughter which was more expense. All in all nearly three weeks money for our home, we had to take a loan to cover it.

It wasn't the most convoluted trip I've ever made but it was emotionally and physically difficult to have to travel home while bleeding and feeling groggy from the anaesthetic.

I'm sorry you and your girlfriend made the wrong decision but not everyone does. My husband and I made an independent decision and have no regrets.

thee glitz

Cosmicfox wrote: »

It's an issue the country has so far refused to deal with anyways.

I reckon it has been dealt with. There's legislation in place and all. Some people don't like it but there'll always be them.

Most of the staff on that ward though firmly believe Ireland will never change.

That's interesting, any reasons why?

January wrote: »

BS for you maybe, but not for others. Medical procedures are already free for people in this country on a public system. An abortion is a medical procedure, whether it is for 'lifestyle' reasons or otherwise. So, it's not farfetched to think that abortion wouldn't be free for women who have access to free healthcare, akin to the UK system.

I'm not going to continue to have this argument with you, though, it's clear we'll never agree since we both have such different views about it.

Medical procedures may be free on the public system, but abortion is a special procedure, nominated by a doctor to be performed on a baby who is not on the the public system, in emergency cases. If it should become legal in other instances, I don't think the state should pay. The same way the nhs doesn't pay for boob jobs unless for a valid reason.

You're surely right there, we do have quite differing views

Cosmicfox

No

Sort of reasons you'd expect. As long as they are there to do what Ireland won't, then they believe Ireland won't ever have to change and so never will. Also the usual old thing about Ireland and Catholicism but personally I don't think that would have as much sway in people's opinions these days as people in the UK seem to think.

thee glitz

Thanks for sharing. They may be right, apart from the influence of Catholicism like you said.

Dick phelan

I doubt abortion would be free in this country, far too many people against it they won't open the can of worms of forcing other people to pay for them. If anything abortion will probably cost more here then it would going to the UK a bit like the way people go to Hungary ect for dentistry work.

wonderfullife

amdublin wrote: »

Are you for real with your "regardless"????


Of course that is the only decision they should be thinking about. But because of the 8th Amendment there is a million other things they have to think about. And you just dismiss all that a woman has to go through to obtain an abortion if she chooses as "regardless"

The 8th Amendment changes so little. If it was legal in Ireland, most women would be booking their appointment online, getting a taxi or lift to the clinic, having the pre-counselling speech (which, in truth, is a joke), procedure, then off home.

I.e. the exact same thing they do now.

The existing law doesn't add "a million other things to think about". It adds one fundamental thing - needing a 55 minute flight to Manchester or a 50 minute flight to Liverpool.

That one fundamental thing might have things attached to it .....getting a day off work, getting a babysitter for 7 or 8 hours, etc etc - but those things would all apply if the procedure was being done locally. You'd still need to not be in work for a bit, you'd still need a babysitter....

eviltwin wrote: »

My abortion cost 650 euros not including flights and accommodation. It also cost a days work because I had to take it at my own expense. We also had to organise a childminder for our daughter which was more expense. All in all nearly three weeks money for our home, we had to take a loan to cover it.

It wasn't the most convoluted trip I've ever made but it was emotionally and physically difficult to have to travel home while bleeding and feeling groggy from the anaesthetic.

I'm sorry you and your girlfriend made the wrong decision but not everyone does. My husband and I made an independent decision and have no regrets.

You didn't have to take a loan to cover it. You chose to take a loan, just as you chose to travel, just as you chose to have the abortion, just as you chose to stay overnight rather than return same day.

Nobody forced your hand in any of these decisions, they were free-will choices that you made with your partner. The day off work and childminder (for at least 3 hours) would have been necessary if the procedure was done locally. So they were all adult choices you made.

Conversely, some women don't get free choice. People can deny this all they want but there are many, many women who were forced, pressured and bullied by their parents (or partners) to have an abortion and many who have deep regret and mental health issues as a result of this.

I'm not talking about any "abortion syndrome".

I'm talking specifically about teenage girls AND adult women who are coerced, manipulated and bullied into having an abortion. Nobody is going to sit here and tell me that parents or partners pressuring these women can't be an issue or factor. Try being a pregnant 18-year old wanting to keep your baby and your father saying he'll disown you for life if you keep it. Try being a 32 year old mother of 3 and your husband saying he'll leave you and the kids if you keep it.

This mental pressure and bullying is very real, under-reported and can have long-lasting effects on these women. There's thousands of stories online from different women who were bullied and hounded into aborting their baby by over-bearing parents, abusive partners etc.

The only way i'd consider changing my views on abortion-on-demand in Ireland would be if there was a comprehensive overhaul of the pre-abortion counselling.

The UK model is nonsense. It's designed for speed, efficiency, cost-effectiveness but it is most certainly not designed to assess if a woman actually wants to have the abortion (or not).

There should be anything up to 3 counselling sessions - on consecutive days (ideally), or spread out on the same day if more practicable. Nobody should be allowed in the room with the woman. There should be a police-organised program so that women having an abortion out of fear of abuse can get immediate help.

I'd currently vote no. In principle i don't believe in abortion and for me there's a moral paradox that it can be called a fetus at 18-20 weeks yet at 22 weeks called a baby - the earliest a baby has been viably born (and is healthy today). That's a moral paradox in my mind.

Personal belief aside, i'm not anti-choice as long as any proposed legislation is linked to the Repeal and that the legislation limits abortion to FFA, mothers health and 1st trimester (first 12 weeks) abortion-on-demand - AND crucially overhauls the pre-counselling system that is in place in the UK, so to give protection to ALL women.

I could vote for that.

The reason the abortion debate is a never-ending cycle of noise is that there is no willingness to engage on either side. You've got hardcore elements on both sides of the debate who just want to sling names at each other.

You've got a sizeable amount on the Pro-Choice side who actually think men shouldn't even have an opinion on this issue. I've been told that multiple times on forums. I've even heard old people shouldn't have an opinion as they can't get pregnant!

That sort of rhetoric is what gives the Pro-Choice camp a bad name. Of course men and the elderly should have strong, vested opinions - this is their country too.

I'm certainly willing to consider Repeal if i see the proposed legislation that would be enacted.

wonderfullife

above post is probably tl;dr, in short:

Pre-abortion counselling needs to be far more comprehensive.

If it's concluded after proper counselling that the woman is making a free-will choice that is correct for her, and she's making the decision in a good mental state, then she should be afforded proper after-care counselling and support after the procedure.

If it's concluded that the woman wants to keep the baby but has arrived at the clinic out of fear of a) financial problems or b) abusiveness from a partner or c) relationships with her parents or partner collapsing, then she should be afforded immediate access to help and advice in order to give her the necessary support to continue her pregnancy.

For-profit clinics like Marie Stopes don't give comprehensive counselling because it's not in their interests to do so. There's a clear conflict of interest inherent.

If abortion-on-demand is legalized here i would want the pre-counselling to be legislatively designed to be impartial, fair and to support all women.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Elliott S

No

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

How awful for someone to have go through with a pregnancy for a reason like that. There are strong social reasons for women to choose abortion over adoption, as shown in the below report (it's by an abortion rights group but has citations), so your flippant attitude in the above post is problematic.

http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/postionpapers/41-Why-Few-Women-Choose-Adoption.pdf

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Elliott S

No

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

"But if I had changed my mind at the last minute, she probably would have put the baby up for adoption". In the imagined scenario, she'd have had little choice if the latest date for having an abortion had passed. Oh well, sure she just has go through with a pregnancy she didn't want to go through with, no big deal. You don't see a problem with this? You said she wanted an abortion but you convinced her not to, with your proposal. If you had changed your mind (you didn't but you could have), you could have taken that choice away from her and she would have had to proceed with the pregnancy whereas before, she would have had a choice. There are very compelling reasons why women chose abortion over adoption. And if abortion became illegal in every jurisdiction, many still would, I'm sure.

My "how awful" comment was referring to someone having to proceed with a pregnancy due to running out of time because of a reneged deal.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Elliott S

No

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I know some of the scenarios I have imagined might have arisen from your situation might seem insulting to you. But they are not meant to be personal. You offered up your story to a discussion forum and once there, people can discuss it, within the rules of the site. I and another poster see potential problems with the scenario. I'm glad it worked out for you. I don't know you and her so of course I am using broad strokes.