Theoretical Physics 2017/18

thetalker

Hi,
So I've read all the theoretical physics threads on boards (or at least the majority) and noticed they all seem to be around 8-10 years old. I was wondering if anyone who has done TP in either TCD or even UCD could mention what changes have occurred in maybe difficulty and learning material since then, if any at all.

I was also wondering if anyone could explain if you can switch from TP to Physics or Math and how hard that would be, I'm assuming that you can't enter TP through the general science course at TCD because I was told so by a representative at higher options if memory serves me right.

And finally I was also wondering if what noticeable differences exist between physics and engineering in terms of what you study and learn

Hopefully this information can help others in the future to not have to search through threads that date from 2005-08!

diograis

I loved maths, physics and applied maths at leaving cert but didn't enjoy TP at all. I thought maybe a switch to maths would make it more interesting but nope, not the courses for me at all. My understanding is that it's one of the toughest degrees out there and you walk into a job after. Make sure you REALLY want to do it. It's an interesting subject and a great thing to study in college though so best of luck no matter what you choose.

thetalker

diograis wrote: »

I loved maths, physics and applied maths at leaving cert but didn't enjoy TP at all. I thought maybe a switch to maths would make it more interesting but nope, not the courses for me at all. My understanding is that it's one of the toughest degrees out there and you walk into a job after. Make sure you REALLY want to do it. It's an interesting subject and a great thing to study in college though so best of luck no matter what you choose.

I'm a bit confused on why you hated it so much if you loved math and physics, isn't it a mix of both?
The real problem is how can I know I love/hate it if I have nothing to compare it to?

carefulnowted

Curious about this course also, but a bit put off because of its difficulty. What's the workload like? Is a 1.1 degree almost impossible to get?

tharkun512

I'm just going into my second year of this course, and I'm enjoying it so far. There's been a few changes lately, the biggest being that we no longer do group theory in second year and instead study statistics. This comes at the same time as a few changes in the physics curriculum which put more of a focus on thermodynamics, and moved the intro quantum course from second into first year.

Most of the maths and physics modules haven't changed hugely aside from different lecturers. You're right in assuming that you can't enter it from the general science course. And it's not that hard to switch to a pure maths degree, I know of at least two people who've already done so (not sure about the other way around). Switching to Physics shouldn't be a problem, but you will lag behind in the chemistry modules that most physics students take.

There's not much point be telling you about modules in third and fourth year as I haven't done them, and they tend to change from year to year anyway as lecturers come and go.

There's a huge difference between physics, engineering and also maths. Mostly due to the amount of rigour involved in the maths. In engineering, from what I've heard, you'll often be given formulae without much if any derivation and be expected to use them. In physics you're usually, at least, presented with a derivation if a bit hand-wavey for a special or easy to solve case, although this is usually due to the limited amount of time in lectures. In maths you'll go through everything, and in your own time if not during a lecture. That said, "Analysis" in first year TP is probably one of the most enjoyable modules I've had, hopefully Donal is still teaching it by the time you're doing it.

If you've any more questions I'm happy enough to answer them.

thetalker

tharkun512 wrote: »

I'm just going into my second year of this course, and I'm enjoying it so far. There's been a few changes lately, the biggest being that we no longer do group theory in second year and instead study statistics. This comes at the same time as a few changes in the physics curriculum which put more of a focus on thermodynamics, and moved the intro quantum course from second into first year.

Most of the maths and physics modules haven't changed hugely aside from different lecturers. You're right in assuming that you can't enter it from the general science course. And it's not that hard to switch to a pure maths degree, I know of at least two people who've already done so (not sure about the other way around). Switching to Physics shouldn't be a problem, but you will lag behind in the chemistry modules that most physics students take.

There's not much point be telling you about modules in third and fourth year as I haven't done them, and they tend to change from year to year anyway as lecturers come and go.

There's a huge difference between physics, engineering and also maths. Mostly due to the amount of rigour involved in the maths. In engineering, from what I've heard, you'll often be given formulae without much if any derivation and be expected to use them. In physics you're usually, at least, presented with a derivation if a bit hand-wavey for a special or easy to solve case, although this is usually due to the limited amount of time in lectures. In maths you'll go through everything, and in your own time if not during a lecture. That said, "Analysis" in first year TP is probably one of the most enjoyable modules I've had, hopefully Donal is still teaching it by the time you're doing it.

If you've any more questions I'm happy enough to answer them.

thanks for that information! I wouldn't have known otherwise that they had added statistics instead of group theory and although I think I'd prefer group theory I don't mind statistics too much. What sort of stuff would analysis cover and what would be its use in TP btw? I've only just started Calculus 2 in school and am only aware that it involves rates of change.. I was also looking through the Trinity prospectus for this next year and I noticed that Trinity do optional language course and extra modules under their "broad curriculum", would it be able to do these along a TP degree or is it exclusive for those who do Arts degrees such as English,Phil etc?

tharkun512

Real Analysis is useful because it gives you a rigorous background in Calculus that are expanded upon later when you study things like differential geometry, and fourier and complex analysis.

In first year, it covers limits, series, summation, differentiation and integration of functions of a single real variable. You'll start with the epsilon-delta definition of a limit, and essentially work your way up from there.

Later, in second year once you have the necessary background in Linear Algebra and Advanced Calc, you'll study analysis of functions that are R^n -> R^m, and move on to manifolds, tensors, and the foundations of differential geometry. You'll also study complex analysis.

In third year you study differential geometry (I think, it might be first semester of fourth year). And in fourth year you have the option of studying general relativity. (via the maths department, so a decent foundation in differential geometry is helpful/necessary)

As for the broad curriculum modules they're not available except in fourth year, I think, and even then they're rather limited as far as I know.

thetalker

thanks again! I certainly won't lie and say I'm all too familiar with any of those fields and what they represent but if they are necessary to understand and work on things like gen relativity and string theory then I'm sure I'll enjoy the challenge

I see, so I'm assuming the workload related to TP must be as high as I've heard it is (30 hours a week?), in that case would joining a soc like the philosophy soc be quite a struggle? Due to its reputation and my enjoyment of philosophy I thought it would be worth it but if the workload is too high and its a very demanding soc then I suppose I'll have to leave it for something else...

tharkun512

The workload is high yes, but I've been on the committee of the physics society for the past year and haven't found it too difficult to maintain it (at least during the second semester; I faltered a little bit in the first semester, and missed out on a few homework assignments, but that was due to my own inability to plan), in fact the majority of the committee are theoretical physics students, mostly in later years. And that was alongside going out a few times a week.

Most people sign up to a good few societies during fresher's week (which incidentally is going on right now), and turn up to maybe one or two of them. So no, I don't think it will be difficult if you just join a society as there usually aren't any obligations to go or not.

Decerto

carefulnowted wrote: »

Curious about this course also, but a bit put off because of its difficulty. What's the workload like? Is a 1.1 degree almost impossible to get?

About 50% got a 1.1 this year and most of the rest got 2.1s. The graduating class was about 20 with at least 4 people who didn't start in the original group (people who deferred, failed a year etc). If you stick it out to the end your more than likely going to do well. For me personally 3rd year was definitely the hardest year in terms of workload and being introduced to completely new stuff. But if you make it past that in reasonable shape you are grand.

The main time it gets really hard is during exams as there is no Christmas ones and minimal continuous assessment marks. The timetabling was generally terrible especially for the maths exams (stuff like 5 exams in four days). The physics exams are typically in the first two weeks, then a few days off and the majority of the maths are in the last week so you are essentially doing exams for the whole month which gets really exhausting.

There were also a few times during third year that it felt like we spent all our time doing assignments but I assume that is the case with any college course.

Overall the course is awesome and if you want to do anything in physics it prepares you amazingly well. Very few undergrad courses in the world come close to the amount covered. Other really nice things are the class size, the quality of lecturers particularly the theoretical physicists and the subject choice in 4th year.

It's definitely doable by anyone with some talent for maths and physics if they are interested and keep on top of things.

mathemagics

I am not sure that I would condone suggesting TP because you "walk into a job" after studying it. Hardly any of my class (graduated about a decade ago) remained in the field. Some might consider it a waste to invest such a huge effort in learning the material, and then never using most of it. If you are interested in a career in finance or similar, then pure mathematics may be more appropriate.

"I'm a bit confused on why you hated it so much if you loved math and physics, isn't it a mix of both?": Third level mathematics is very different to secondary level.

don corleone

Sorry for digging up an old thread.
I have a degree in Electronic Eng. Recently Ive decided Id love to study theoretical physics. I have a genuine interest in most of the areas in TP, would often read books in my own time on some of the subjects i.e Relativity, particle physics, quantum theory etc... Job prospects are not my main priority as I have a steady job from my degree already. Im just wondering does anyone have any idea of a university they would recommend for doing such a course on a part time basis? The end goal would be the Msc in Theoretical Physics in DIT but I need the honors degree first. Thanks in advance

mickmac76

I know the Open University has a joint honours degree in maths and physics. It's not theoretical physics but I'd say you would qualify for the DIT masters with it. The Open University is gone very expensive though. You could check with DIT if you would need a second undergrad degree to enroll on the masters. Perhaps just doing some of the year three courses would be enough. Also the university of lancaster does an undergrad in astronomy by distance learning. I did one of their courses and found it very good but the maths content may be too low for a masters in theoretical physics.

potato53

Hi everyone,
I am trying to decide between Theoretical Physics in TCD, Physics in TCD, Theoretical Physics in UCD, Theoretical Physics in NUIG and Maths and Physics (joint degree) in UL. I love maths and I'm not too keen on experiments. Which of these courses is best other than TP in TCD? I would like to do a masters/ PhD abroad in the future- does it matter which college I did my undergrad in and what its international reputation is? I know that UL is significantly lower than both TCD and UCD on world rankings lists- could this potentially hold me back?
Thanks

thetalker

potato53 wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I am trying to decide between Theoretical Physics in TCD, Physics in TCD, Theoretical Physics in UCD, Theoretical Physics in NUIG and Maths and Physics (joint degree) in UL. I love maths and I'm not too keen on experiments. Which of these courses is best other than TP in TCD? I would like to do a masters/ PhD abroad in the future- does it matter which college I did my undergrad in and what its international reputation is? I know that UL is significantly lower than both TCD and UCD on world rankings lists- could this potentially hold me back?
Thanks

Since I'm currently doing tp in UCD I feel I can safely say that if you're undecided then go for UCD. The reason I say this is because in first year (and second if you're smart) you can take enough modules to cover both the physics, theoretical physics, math and applied math streams. This way you can do all of it and see what you want to set your eyes on in stage 2.

UCD also has a much better international reputation for science than UL or NUIG, there's always some kind of international symposium or event going on. I don't know if it's better than TCD but you wouldn't have as much freedom of choice there and I've heard the Tp students there are miserable so thats my two cents.

potato53

Thanks for your reply. If I didn't get the points for TP in both TCD and UCD and had to choose between UL maths and physics (joint degree) and NUIG TP do you think there is much of a difference since neither is as internationally recognised as TCD and UCD?
Do you think there is a significant difference between the two courses (TP and maths+physics) and the type of student they will produce?
I would like to study as much maths as possible while still doing a physics degree- would you say there is as much maths in TP as a joint maths and physics degree?
Will they both lead to the same postgrad opportunities?
Also, in your course how do you find the workload so far?
Thanks a lot!

thetalker

potato53 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. If I didn't get the points for TP in both TCD and UCD and had to choose between UL maths and physics (joint degree) and NUIG TP do you think there is much of a difference since neither is as internationally recognised as TCD and UCD?
Do you think there is a significant difference between the two courses (TP and maths+physics) and the type of student they will produce?
I would like to study as much maths as possible while still doing a physics degree- would you say there is as much maths in TP as a joint maths and physics degree?
Will they both lead to the same postgrad opportunities?
Also, in your course how do you find the workload so far?
Thanks a lot!

1) I don't know which is considered better but if you decide to go into research you're going to need a masters at least so it doesn't really matter, though might be worth seeing how their programs differ.
2) Do I think there is a significant difference between those courses in UCD? Well yes, looking at the modules I can tell you that a theoretical physics degree would give you math skills that are specifically for physics/computer modelling while the joint honour degree covers actual pure math areas (more abstract/less focused on application). So thats the big difference, the only difference between students I see is that you either end up hating the abstract stuff cause it has no (seeming) applications or loving it.
3)Alot of people choose all the modules for math and tp in first year (myself included), so I think like I said before, that you'll find out which you actually prefer in that year. You might have to ask yourself what you enjoy in math because the math in the tp stream is actually more what you're familiar to than the pure math stream. (unless you're some kind of will hunting). There's plenty of calc and linear algebra in tp but the pure math degree has stuff like analysis which I can assure you a lot of people end up despising because its so different to what they've done so far.
4)Sorry I don't know, I dont think so. A math/physics joint degree doesnt have the labs that a tp degree has so probably not. But you could check UCD's tp master degree to see if they accept them.
5) well I'm gonna start second year now but first year was ok. If you did well in the lc you should have the discipline to keep up, the hardest thing is continious assessment imo. It means you can't cram anything, you need to switch if you're someone who does that. Hardest module is linear algebra imo, mostly because of poor teaching/abstract ideas. But the library has everything you need. Basically if you're math inclined and do the weekly assignments you're not gonna have problems.

Hope that answers it but if you need anymore questions just ask

nootnoot

I know this thread is from last century but this is actually the most active site I know for discussing TCD's TP course besides reddit.

So I am an EU student and I am deciding between going to Ireland (TCD) or UK (U of Southampton) to study physics. I know in TCD's TP I will get a far more robust math education than in the UK, but...
I attended the first term (4 months, or semester) of maths in Spain as an auditor and despite I liked many bits of it, I felt it unbearable many times. Everyone has always told me I'm very smart but I feel really stupid when I have to read a proof. There is always something I can't understand as it is written. I often get unamused before even finishing reading. I am often blank when I am asked to prove something. I even dropped linear algebra because the second week the teacher spent a whole class proving a lemma and nobody understood s***.
In the future I would like to do research on some interesting weird sh** in physics so I was thinking on going through a 2 years masters in Europe after getting a 3 years bachelor in UK.
In one hand going to UK seems a good idea: I researched the place I thought I would like the most with student satisfaction, hundreds of societies and other points in favour backing up my choice. The con would be 30-40K in student debt.
In the other I have TCD which would be practically free for me, and can someone tell me if the SUSI grants for maintenance posted online are annual or mensual?

So my main worries are mainly two:

1. I don't know if the heavy proof maths may demotivate me, I don't know if attending trinity is better in any way than attending X college in Y city, I don't know if the lecturers just write proofs or actively and progressively improve their teaching and inspire and empower students, I don't know if the tutorials will actually be useful, I don't know how productive lectures are, or about the facilities. Do the lecturers even care about knowing the content of the LC? Because where I audited for a semester they don't. Are TP students all workaholics? I don't want to feel burned out or worn out, I want to be able to study other things in my leisure time and not feel too pressured each single day to pass an exam. How do they feel after the 4 years of degree? Are they still interested in theoretical physics?

2. I don't know how I will feel at TCD, a city-centred university. I find it Very hard to make friends. Will I be able to socialize and make friends? Or will I spend 4 years in my room? That's why societies was an important factor in the UK. In TCD the societies are way worse (in number and activity) though still way better than in Spain. The physics society's website looks dead. I also want to live in halls for the same reasons.

So, how do you see it? Would you recommend me going to Trinity? I see myself going through the maths and enjoying the course, but I will find especially second year analysis a pain in the ass if nobody convinces me otherwise while I'm there. Or maths is just not my thing? Or should I fake an ADHD diagnostics lol

take everything

Hi.
I'll offer my 2 cents on TP in Trinity.
I went back after a while out working so this may not be the typical experience.

Like you I was always told I'm smart and I always liked maths and physics.

Currently I'm finding the course very tough. But still really want to get through. Something like 12 or 13 people have dropped out or moved to maths out of a total of 44 (IIRC) starting so the drop out rate is big. I think there was 21 out of 43 left in this year's fourth year class (not that far yet myself).

But yeah the maths is the thing that people spend most of their time doing.

Proofy maths doesn't hit until second year really with analysis. Analysis is a bit of a mind **** but if you really spend time at it (reading and re-reading) it sinks in I find.

Linear algebra in first year didnt ask for proofs in our exam but they were covered in lectures. Calculus in first year hardly does any proofs.

The thing that most people find hardest in the first two years is classical mechanics. The abstraction increases in second year with Lagrangian/Hamiltonian stuff. Index notation bothers people (I still don't understand it properly).

I would agree that the Trinity TP course takes up a lot of your spare time. We were told it would be very difficult to have a part-time job with it for example. People do seem to be under constant pressure to get assignments/lab reports in but many people have grouped together to tackle them which makes it easier. I haven't, mind you, because of my circumstances, which means it's doubly difficult.

Personally I find the teaching in Trinity not great. In a lot of the labs, you're just left to your own devices and I get the feeling they think TP students should know the stuff. And some lecturers are truly terrible. Unfortunately this often coincides with the difficult courses.

For example, in second year, we were never formally taught indices in advanced mechanics at the outset which is bizarre. And the lecturer (Russian) gave this air of ennui and condescension which was very off-putting.

Overall I would say it's a very tough course but really want to get through it.

QuantumLad

take everything wrote: »

I would agree that the Trinity TP course takes up a lot of your spare time. We were told it would be very difficult to have a part-time job with it for example. People do seem to be under constant pressure to get assignments/lab reports in but many people have grouped together to tackle them which makes it easier. I haven't, mind you, because of my circumstances, which means it's doubly difficult.

I've always had a keen interest in Maths and Physics and would love to continue studying it in college. You make it sound very difficult so I'm a bit worried if I'll be able to cope but I am willing to put a lot of work in if needed.

The other thing I'm worried about is whether I'll be able to make friends in the course. I don't think many in my school will go to trinity so I'm a bit nervous I won't fit in. You mention you haven't grouped together with the other people in the course, are the classmates particularly unfriendly or difficult to get along with? I don't really know what to expect of other people doing such a mathsy course. Thanks in advance

take everything

QuantumLad wrote: »

I've always had a keen interest in Maths and Physics and would love to continue studying it in college. You make it sound very difficult so I'm a bit worried if I'll be able to cope but I am willing to put a lot of work in if needed.

The other thing I'm worried about is whether I'll be able to make friends in the course. I don't think many in my school will go to trinity so I'm a bit nervous I won't fit in. You mention you haven't grouped together with the other people in the course, are the classmates particularly unfriendly or difficult to get along with? I don't really know what to expect of other people doing such a mathsy course. Thanks in advance

It's not impossible but it's quite difficult if you want to cover everything and understand it.
The alternative (that the normal student does) is look at the past papers and passing it shouldn't be that hard. Maybe at the risk of not really understanding it though.

I'm older so it makes sense I'd be on my own.
They're not unfriendly at all. But there are obvious groups/cliques and It really is a social course in that way.

A ****load of collaboration/copying/sharing of ideas/plagiarism/delete as appropriate goes on.

I can't imagine a lot people in the class surviving without being in a group. Already about a quarter have dropped out.
There's maybe 15 out of 40 who'd be ok regardless in fairness.