is Mourinho a busted flush?

tayto lover

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

I wasn't talking about Arsenal. Niallo said finishing top 4 was the sort of mediocrity United fans would accept right now.

That's what I was replying to. I was saying we wouldn't be happy to finish 4th every season.

Ha ha give it time, give it time :pac::D

gosplan

tayto lover wrote: »

Ha ha give it time, give it time :pac::D

Yeah, just would have been happy with 4th last season, and the one before, and it would have been great the year before that.

Oh no, look what's happening.

kevthegaff

Was reading an article last year suggesting Jose s teams where he instigates "everyone against us attitude" only has short term gains. This seems to ring true looking at his stints with Porto. Inter, Chelsea(second stint). Sayed was the journalist I think

Giggsy11

niallo27 wrote: »

Yes but utd have finished midtable, top4 and then midtable again.

So? We won league, finished midtable and since when 5th is considered midtable?

I wouldn't be happy if ManUtd accept arsenal level and I'm sure must ManUtd fans won't. Simple as that.

Giggsy11

Mr.H wrote: »

When is the last time arsenal had an actual credible title challenge?

I'm sure united and arsenal fans would be more than happy to have klopp as manager as oppose to who they currently have

Yeah hire manager who finished 7th in Bundesliga and 8th in Premier league.

PhlegmyMoses

kevthegaff wrote: »

Was reading an article last year suggesting Jose s teams where he instigates "everyone against us attitude" only has short term gains. This seems to ring true looking at his stints with Porto. Inter, Chelsea(second stint). Sayed was the journalist I think

And to be honest, most United fans would accept that. They'd also accept his defensive football as somebody alluded to above. We are looking for somebody to stabilise the club and take us back to winning ways.

I do find it baffling that some Liverpool and Arsenal fans are willing us to write him off considering they've spent the best part of two decades passionately defending objectively inferior managers - something I always respected. I get it from City and Chelsea fans because their club policy is very much to arrest a slump with a sacking - which to be fair, will probably be United's too, from now on - but even still, it's 5 games in!

PhlegmyMoses

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Yeah hire manager who finished 7th in Bundesliga and 8th in Premier league.

This is exactly it. People going on like Mourinho is finished because of one bad season (3 months even) when Klopp spent a similar period hovering around the relegation zone before joining Liverpool and taking them to 8th last season. Only really City can say that they have an objectively better manager and even then, I'd still say let's see how it all pans out.

8-10

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is exactly it. People going on like Mourinho is finished because of one bad season (3 months even) when Klopp spent a similar period hovering around the relegation zone before joining Liverpool and taking them to 8th last season. Only really City can say that they have an objectively better manager and even then, I'd still say let's see how it all pans out.

Exactly. I'd say Mourinho is more like a flush draw after the flop right now. Pep already has a high pair and Klopp was all-in before looking at his cards.

billo.d86

Rooney needs to get the bullet. Play Mkhitaryan or however you spell it in the 10 role.
Fellani isnt up to it either.
Should be alright if those changes are made.

crkball6

crkball6 wrote: »

You must have heard a very edited press conference I heard him blaming himself,ref's and defenders not closing down.

Ferguson blamed defeats on players in public, Koeman called out barkley recently for poor performances etc in public.

What's the problem exactly? Are million dollar footballers so sensitive?

He didn't even say that much just he failed to close a player down, which he didn't. was it that bad what he said?

To add to this:

Apaprently both Conte and Pep had a moan about players today
Not a mention about it though
Easy narrative to hop on

MD1990

M!Ck^ wrote: »

To add to this:

Apaprently both Conte and Pep had a moan about players today
Not a mention about it though
Easy narrative to hop on

Pep is having to deal with a complete clown in Toure's agent. He didn't criticise the player.
Mourinho is just blaming players after every defeat.

Have people not been following Mourinhio over the years. He always blames everyone.

Nothing new there.

Giggsy11

MD1990 wrote: »

Pep is having to deal with a complete clown in Toure's agent. He didn't criticise the player.
Mourinho is just blaming players after every defeat.

Jose saying left back should have closed down the space and it's on me to correct that is blaming the player, but Pep saying Yaya won't play until he apologies (in the press conference) is dealing with **** agent.

54and56

MD1990 wrote: »

Pep is having to deal with a complete clown in Toure's agent. He didn't criticise the player.
Mourinho is just blaming players after every defeat.

Spot on. Completely different situations. Pep has Toure training with the first team squad and specifically said if/when Toure shows the fitness and movement he requires from his midfielders he will be considered for selection. He didn't publicly banish him to the U21/23's like Jose did to Schweinsteiger and he didn't say anything about Toure until Toure's agent threw his toys out of the pram and started slagging off Pep etc.

Once that happened Pep had no choice but to respond to the questions that followed and he rightly asserted his authority to demand an apology from Toure.

Anyone trying to compare that to Jose throwing his own players under the bus for being weak mentally and being the cause of their poor performances is just making excuses for Jose's behaviour.

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

Pep is having to deal with a complete clown in Toure's agent. He didn't criticise the player.
Mourinho is just blaming players after every defeat.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Spot on. Completely different situations. Pep has Toure training with the first team squad and specifically said if/when Toure shows the fitness and movement he requires from his midfielders he will be considered for selection. He didn't publicly banish him to the U21/23's like Jose did to Schweinsteiger and he didn't say anything about Toure until Toure's agent threw his toys out of the pram and started slagging off Pep etc.

Once that happened Pep had no choice but to respond to the questions that followed and he rightly asserted his authority to demand an apology from Toure.

Anyone trying to compare that to Jose throwing his own players under the bus for being weak mentally and being the cause of their poor performances is just making excuses for Jose's behaviour.

No they are not, the bias is clear here.

He has demanded an apology publicly from the player

Lets compare it to Bastian
Jose hasn't mentioned anything in public and is handling that situation in private.
But I still read the narrative that bad dude Jose and his treatment of Bastian

Pep the saint however

MD1990

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Jose saying left back should have closed down the space and it's on me to correct that is blaming the player, but Pep saying Yaya won't play until he apologies (in the press conference) is dealing with **** agent.

Shaw was injured it was on Mourinho to take him off earlier than he did but he refused to mention his injury. Also the goal was more Fellaini's fault for not tracking Pereyra but he mention of him as he wanted to single out Shaw publicly as I suspect he has a dislike for him for rejecting Chelsea in 2014.
Pep wants Toure's agent to apologise not Toure lol.

KaiserGunner

Giggsy11 wrote: »

So? We won league, finished midtable and since when 5th is considered midtable?

I wouldn't be happy if ManUtd accept arsenal level and I'm sure must ManUtd fans won't. Simple as that.

Why do people assume Arsenal fans are happy with finishing in the champions league places and not winning the league? I don't think any Arsenal fan is happy with that. And just because some fans of Arsenal (including me) wouldnt want Mourinho near the club doesn't mean that we are happy with finishing 2nd-4th in the league. I want Arsenal to be as successful as any Man Utd fan, Llverpool fan etc want for their teams.

Keep hearing that all the time.

54and56

M!Ck^ wrote: »

He has demanded an apology publicly from the player

Do you not think the player should apologise for the statements his agent made?

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

Shaw was injured it was on Mourinho to take him off earlier than he did but he refused to mention his injury. Also the goal was more Fellaini's fault for not tracking Pereyra but he mention of him as he wanted to single out Shaw publicly as I suspect he has a dislike for him for rejecting Chelsea in 2014.
Pep wants Toure's agent to apologise not Toure lol.

Such hearsay

Absolutely nothing to back this "claim" up

Same as the tabloids

Je_suis_Jean

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Do you not think the player should apologise for the statements his agent made?

I don't give two ****es if he apologizes or not

You are just deflecting this to another argument

Peps handling of the Toure piece is public when it shouldn't be

GavRedKing

Football goes in vicious cycles, if he wins his next 3 games this thread will barely get a look in.

If he losses this weekend then of course it will go into overdrive.

Welcome to modern football where a manager can be "under pressure" after less than a dozen games, ya couldnt make it up. :pac:

duploelabs

GavRedKing wrote: »

Football goes in vicious cycles, if he wins his next 3 games this thread will barely get a look in.

If he losses this weekend then of course it will go into overdrive.

Welcome to modern football where a manager can be "under pressure" after less than a dozen games, ya couldnt make it up. :pac:

We thought that at the start of last season didn't we?

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

Football goes in vicious cycles, if he wins his next 3 games this thread will barely get a look in.

If he losses this weekend then of course it will go into overdrive.

Welcome to modern football where a manager can be "under pressure" after less than a dozen games, ya couldnt make it up. :pac:

Fair enough, but I wonder how it will go down if we kick off a thread if Arsene or a Klopp or whoever loose a few games in a row

MD1990

GavRedKing wrote: »

Football goes in vicious cycles, if he wins his next 3 games this thread will barely get a look in.

If he losses this weekend then of course it will go into overdrive.

Welcome to modern football where a manager can be "under pressure" after less than a dozen games, ya couldnt make it up. :pac:

If he loses his next 3 games this thread will get locked.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Fair enough, but I wonder how it will go down if we kick off a thread if Arsene or a Klopp or whoever loose a few games in a row

If it's Klopp Liverpool match threads will stay open no matter what.

Giggsy11

MD1990 wrote: »

Shaw was injured it was on Mourinho to take him off earlier than he did but he refused to mention his injury. Also the goal was more Fellaini's fault for not tracking Pereyra but he mention of him as he wanted to single out Shaw publicly as I suspect he has a dislike for him for rejecting Chelsea in 2014.
Pep wants Toure's agent to apologise not Toure lol.

Lol, that's some story. Yeah Jose hate Shaw for rejecting Chelsea, that's he plays in every game.

agent made some statement, so Toure won't play. If Raiola talks **** about Jose wonder how many players will be benched. Publicly saying player won't play is not throwing them under the bus?

KaiserGunner

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Fair enough, but I wonder how it will go down if we kick off a thread if Arsene or a Klopp or whoever loose a few games in a row

I think there was a thread a few years ago titled "Are Wenger and Arsenal done". Yeah I agree it's way too early for a thread like this. If Man Utd beat Leicester this weekend than its all roses again. It's a fickle sport alright.

MD1990

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Lol, that's some story. Yeah Jose hate Shaw for rejecting Chelsea, that's he plays in every game.

agent made some statement, so Toure won't play. If Raiola talks **** about Jose wonder how many players will be benched. Publicly saying player won't play is not throwing them under the bus?

Pep is no saint either after making Bayern's well known doctor (who was there for 30 years) job untenable. But in this case with Toure's agent I wouldn't blame Pep at all.

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

If he loses his next 3 games this thread will get locked.



If it's Klopp Liverpool match threads will stay open no matter what.

what you on about?

GavRedKing

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Fair enough, but I wonder how it will go down if we kick off a thread if Arsene or a Klopp or whoever loose a few games in a row

duploelabs wrote: »

We thought that at the start of last season didn't we?

If Conte lost last night, considering we've Arsenal away Saturday, he could have easily lost 3 in a row and had no win in 4 if you throw in the draw at Swansea, you could start a thread on Conte potentially facing the sack on the back of that if ya wanted, it would be wrong but thats the footballing landscape at this moment.

Jose winning, losing or drawing or farting at Utd creates column inches, I'm sure any Utd fan isnt going to jumo the shark and write Utd or Jose off after a blip, even if the last 12 months havent been rosey, you dont write off Utd or Jose easily.

Giggsy11

MD1990 wrote: »

Pep is no saint either after making Bayern's well known doctor (who was there for 30 years) job untenable. But in this case with Toure's agent I wouldn't blame Pep at all.

And Klopp blamed Moreno when Liverpool lost against Villarreal but no one says Klopp throws players under the bus.

Even then what Jose said about Shaw wasn't wrong at all, it was more about highlighting mentality of the team when it comes to closing down and he even said it's on him to improve them.

GavRedKing

MD1990 wrote: »

If he loses his next 3 games this thread will get locked.

The discussion has been civil, that helps.

If it's Klopp Liverpool match threads will stay open no matter what.

Usually match threads are closed a day or two later, most just drop off the first page and are forgotten about.

MD1990

[QUOTE=Giggsy11;101109333]And Klopp blamed Moreno when Liverpool lost against Villarreal but no one says Klopp throws players under the bus.

Even then what Jose said about Shaw wasn't wrong at all, it was more about highlighting mentality of the team when it comes to closing down and he even said it's on him to improve them.[/QUOTE]
Considering Klopp has taken the blame numerous times for mistakes with Liverpool.
I think when he said he wasn't sure where Moreno was for that goal escapes him for being accused of throwing players under the bus lol.

MD1990

GavRedKing wrote: »

The discussion has been civil, that helps.



Usually match threads are closed a day or two later, most just drop off the first page and are forgotten about.

Sounds like
Jokes about Man Utd/Chelsea after a loss = uncivil

Jokes about Liverpool after a loss = civil

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

If he loses his next 3 games this thread will get locked.



If it's Klopp Liverpool match threads will stay open no matter what.

What have match threads got to do with a thread about Jose or other managers?
You are veering towards something else entirely for whatever reason.
Maybe you should question the content that is posted in Match threads after a win or a loss if you have such an issue with it.

54and56

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Peps handling of the Toure piece is public when it shouldn't be

It was Toure's agent who made the issue public. Pep had no control over that but once it went public and he was asked questions about it in a news conference he had little choice but to publicly respond and assert his authority. He could have deflected and said he'll deal with it internally but given the players agent chose to make it public why not put him back in his box publicly?

If you are equating that to Jose just coming out and publicly saying his players are weak mentally then best of luck to you.

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

Sounds like
Jokes about Man Utd/Chelsea after a loss = uncivil

Jokes about Liverpool after a loss = civil

What have jokes got to do with this thread also?
This is a discussion about Jose being a busted flush or not.

Andersonisgod

I predicted this before a ball was kicked this season.

Pro. F

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I predicted this before a ball was kicked this season.

You admitted to trolling this forum on your Twitter account too.

GavRedKing

MD1990 wrote: »

Sounds like
Jokes about Man Utd/Chelsea after a loss = uncivil

Jokes about Liverpool after a loss = civil

You've hit the nail on the head there.

:rolleyes:

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

If Conte lost last night, considering we've Arsenal away Saturday, he could have easily lost 3 in a row and had no win in 4 if you throw in the draw at Swansea, you could start a thread on Conte potentially facing the sack on the back of that if ya wanted, it would be wrong but thats the footballing landscape at this moment.

Jose winning, losing or drawing or farting at Utd creates column inches, I'm sure any Utd fan isnt going to jumo the shark and write Utd or Jose off after a blip, even if the last 12 months havent been rosey, you dont write off Utd or Jose easily.

I'd argue that it would be so premature and completely not required.
Conte needs time to stamp his authority on the Chelsea team and is completely understandable from any knowledgeable football fan.

GavRedKing

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I'd argue that it would be so premature and completely not required.
Conte Jose needs time to stamp his authority on the Chelsea Utd team and is completely understandable from any knowledgeable football fan.

I wonder does the above apply here also?

Je_suis_Jean

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

It was Toure's agent who made the issue public. Pep had no control over that but once it went public and he was asked questions about it in a news conference he had little choice but to publicly respond and assert his authority. He could have deflected and said he'll deal with it internally but given the players agent chose to make it public why not put him back in his box publicly?

If you are equating that to Jose just coming out and publicly saying his players are weak mentally then best of luck to you.

What relevance has this to what Pep should say about a player? Yes he had a choice. Nobody can force him to say or not say anything to the press.

You are making up your own equations I'm afraid.

Also source for this where he said all the players are weak mentally out of interest?

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

I wonder does the above apply here also?

Obviously not

MD1990

M!Ck^ wrote: »

What have match threads got to do with a thread about Jose or other managers?
You are veering towards something else entirely for whatever reason.
Maybe you should question the content that is posted in Match threads after a win or a loss if you have such an issue with it.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

What have jokes got to do with this thread also?
This is a discussion about Jose being a busted flush or not.

54and56

M!Ck^ wrote: »

What relevance has this to what Pep should say about a player?

If you understand anything about being an "agent" http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/A/Agent.aspx you'd know that an agent acts on behalf of their employer so when a players agent publicly critisices a manager he's doing it on behalf of the player who doesn't have the ball$ to do it himself. Does that clarify it for you?

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Nobody can force him to say or not say anything to the press.

Thanks for stating the obvious there. No one claimed he was forced. Pep chose to respond to public questions about public statements made on behalf of a player by his agent. Simples.

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Also source for this where he said all the players are weak mentally out of interest?

Fixed that selective mis quote for ya there and here's some of the sources - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/18/jose-mourinho-some-manchester-united-players-not-coping-with-pressure-watford and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3796248/Jose-Mourinho-questions-Manchester-United-players-coolness-pressure.html

Flint Fredstone

MD1990 wrote: »

If he loses his next 3 games this thread will get locked.



If it's Klopp Liverpool match threads will stay open no matter what.

Flint Fredstone

MD1990 wrote: »

Considering Klopp has taken the blame numerous times for mistakes with Liverpool.
I think when he said he wasn't sure where Moreno was for that goal escapes him for being accused of throwing players under the bus lol.

Convenient. If he does it again it will probably "escape him" again too.

Flint Fredstone

Klopp had no problem airing the dirty laundry in public when it came to Sakho either.

Je_suis_Jean

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

If you understand anything about being an "agent" http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/A/Agent.aspx you'd know that an agent acts on behalf of their employer so when a players agent publicly critisices a manager he's doing it on behalf of the player who doesn't have the ball$ to do it himself. Does that clarify it for you?

Thanks for stating the obvious there. No one claimed he was forced. Pep chose to respond to public questions about public statements made on behalf of a player by his agent. Simples.

Fixed that selective mis quote for ya there and here's some of the sources - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/18/jose-mourinho-some-manchester-united-players-not-coping-with-pressure-watford and http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3796248/Jose-Mourinho-questions-Manchester-United-players-coolness-pressure.html

Correct and he shouldn't have but he did.
Public, non-public...starting to make sense here?

So to your original point.
I know you like equations so this is what you equate to Jose throwing players under the bus?

"Anyone trying to compare that to Jose throwing his own players under the bus for being weak mentally and being the cause of their poor performances is just making excuses for Jose's behaviour."

Here's what Jose said.

“I was completely aware that we were not the perfect team, that we had lots of players who are not end products and can make their own mistakes,” Mourinho said. “My only doubt was the way they can cope with the negative moments that come sooner or later. I feel that some individuals probably feel too much pressure and that responsibility.

“But from a collective point of view I only have good things to say about them. If you analyse our three defeats in the last week, we were always the best team in the second half. We didn’t start well today but then in the second half the players showed quality, intensity, desire, commitment and ambition. And we lost again in our best moment."

“I can split this into three factors: one is the referee’s crucial mistakes – that’s not in my control. Against Man City you know what happened in minute 55 [when Claudio Bravo made the challenge on Wayne Rooney], today you know what happened for the first goal, against Feyenoord you know that the goal was in an offside position, so we were punished by these mistakes and I can’t do anything.

“The third thing is what is in my hands, which is the improvement of the team,the improvement of individuals, trying to stop with the defensive mistakes. I knew that I had a task because, for example, the first Man City goal and this second goal today, you can find an incredible similarity.This is tactical but it is also a mental attitude. It’s something that you don’t go there and in a couple of weeks everything becomes perfect. So we have to improve, no doubt, individually and collectively. And that’s my job because lady luck you don’t control and referees mistakes you don’t control.”

I read Jose is taking on the responsibility as manager to get his team in order.
Absolutely nothing in the slightest wrong with that.
In-fact there is a lot of positives to read from that in regards to how he addressed the team.

54and56

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Klopp had no problem airing the dirty laundry in public when it came to Sakho either.

You're right, Klopps public discussion of Sakho's situation just like Jose's antics LOL - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/08/jurken-klopp-tells-mamadou-sakho-no-easy-route-back-liverpool