How does your school work CP Hours?

deiseindublin

Wondering how these work in your centre?

* Are the 8 flexi hours totally flexible where person fills in a timesheet or is there a schedule of meetings for a sub-group of staff etc?
* 25 school wide hours left after these 8 taken out so do you do 25 x 1 hour meetings or what? For ease I'm not including the 12 hours from previous circulars.
* Are meetings scheduled for the year ahead or is it a few days/weeks in advance only?

Would love to get a feel for how they're used in other schools.

rainbowtrout

Typically in the past, in the last staff meeting of the year, we put together a rough schedule for the following year. I don't know how many years we are doing CP hours now, but the schedule kind of developed from that.

Stuff like PT meetings, open evening were put in automatically, although firm dates weren't set for them. Maybe a staff meeting once per term. Six were usually scheduled for a planning day the day before the school officially had students back at the end of August. I imagine a lot of schools do this to get the hours out of the way.

We have a new principal this year, and we were back the first day for the planning day, but we haven't done any CP hours since. Hard to know but I think the new fella might put them to 'better use' than the last one. i.e. allow an evening for planning where something useful might actually be done in a subject dept, rather than having in a speaker for the sake of it.

The flexi hours: in the past once we were able to show certification of where we were, that was enough, e.g. evening inservice, I can't imagine that should change for us.

r93kaey5p2izun

We meet for 1 hour one evening every week. The Open Day counts for 3 hours.

In practice our 8 hours (or the 5 for the last couple of years) are no different than the rest of the hours . Most weeks we are split into subject departments, or other planning groups to which everybody is assigned (numeracy, literacy, discipline policy, etc). Our principal deems this to be suitable for either "on a whole school basis" (for the 25 hours) as we are all present in the building for the hour, or "on other than a whole school basis" (for the 8 hours) as we are not together as a group.

It's mostly a complete waste of time. I have posted before how we have no control over what we do during the meetings. Each week we are drip-fed a set of tasks to complete that evening, with no prior notice (so necessary preparation can't be performed) and no consideration as to whether that's what the department needs to do at that time. For example, the Science department may really need to discuss stock or Coursework B but that will never be on the agenda - it's always something generic like write an action plan to improve homework completion or review subject inspection reports from other schools. The Heads of Department have no input into what the meetings can be used for.

deiseindublin

I was reading the circular and was wondering how other schools get around the 'consultation' part? Seems lots of staffs don't have an input or any consultation process.

rainbowtrout

Adrianna Thundering Splint wrote: »

It's mostly a complete waste of time. I have posted before how we have no control over what we do during the meetings. Each week we are drip-fed a set of tasks to complete that evening, with no prior notice (so necessary preparation can't be performed) and no consideration as to whether that's what the department needs to do at that time. For example, the Science department may really need to discuss stock or Coursework B but that will never be on the agenda - it's always something generic like write an action plan to improve homework completion or review subject inspection reports from other schools. The Heads of Department have no input into what the meetings can be used for.

That's soul destroying. I think our low point last year (and I think I posted on here about it) was when we did an hour of a 2 hour CP session on numeracy and IT. We had a lesson in how to use a scientific calculator. I'd love to have recorded that particular session to show what a waste it was. We were then shown how to embed links to relevant you tube videos into our subject dept plans. However like above, we were given no notice that this was happening, so no one had electronic copies handy or had a list of you tube videos ready to go. The IT coordinator seemed to think we'd have all the links in on the subject plan in 20 mins...... another shambles

political analyst

Adrianna Thundering Splint wrote: »

It's mostly a complete waste of time. I have posted before how we have no control over what we do during the meetings. Each week we are drip-fed a set of tasks to complete that evening, with no prior notice (so necessary preparation can't be performed) and no consideration as to whether that's what the department needs to do at that time. For example, the Science department may really need to discuss stock or Coursework B but that will never be on the agenda - it's always something generic like write an action plan to improve homework completion or review subject inspection reports from other schools. The Heads of Department have no input into what the meetings can be used for.

Why don't the heads of department ask the principal to let them have discretion over what is done in those hours? Surely, the principal won't take disciplinary action against them for arguing against him or her, given that it is the teaching profession, not the police or the military.

joebloggs32

Adrianna Thundering Splint wrote: »

We meet for 1 hour one evening every week. The Open Day counts for 3 hours.

In practice our 8 hours (or the 5 for the last couple of years) are no different than the rest of the hours . Most weeks we are split into subject departments, or other planning groups to which everybody is assigned (numeracy, literacy, discipline policy, etc). Our principal deems this to be suitable for either "on a whole school basis" (for the 25 hours) as we are all present in the building for the hour, or "on other than a whole school basis" (for the 8 hours) as we are not together as a group.

It's mostly a complete waste of time. I have posted before how we have no control over what we do during the meetings. Each week we are drip-fed a set of tasks to complete that evening, with no prior notice (so necessary preparation can't be performed) and no consideration as to whether that's what the department needs to do at that time. For example, the Science department may really need to discuss stock or Coursework B but that will never be on the agenda - it's always something generic like write an action plan to improve homework completion or review subject inspection reports from other schools. The Heads of Department have no input into what the meetings can be used for.

You guys really need to involve your union on this. The calendar of coke park hours must be agreed through consensus between management and staff. If the principal won't agree to that then ye are well within your rights to refuse to do them.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

Why don't the heads of department ask the principal to let them have discretion over what is done in those hours? Surely, the principal won't take disciplinary action against them for arguing against him or her, given that it is the teaching profession, not the police or the military.

You'd be surprised I expect

A lot of people operate on a why bother stick your head above the parapet and become a target mentality....and imo it serves them well for the most part

Unsurprising given its the way a lot of things in our society seem to work nowadays imo (maybe it always has)....you speak up you are a trouble maker/lazy etc etc.....a lot of the more intelligent usually let things pass as this is the easy way out and they have been burned one too many times for trying to do the right thing (at least thats how I feel)

Look at the way the media reports on legitimate concerns teachers and indeed many other sectors of society have over "reforms" most of the time you'd be forgiven for thinking they were nothing more than a govt mouthpiece or they operate on a purely lazy populist agenda with no regard for actually researching the issues at hand and providing balanced commentary...

And if thats sort of stuff that sells...then you have to think that maybe balanced and fair people are in the minority so let the majority have it and move on to greener pastures.

tldr: imo a lot of schools are not really democratic places and do operate in a top down way even if they give the impression of being otherwise, disciplinary action probably wouldn't happen anywhere but thats not the only way you can be made regret standing up for yourself.....all the little things make you question doing anything when nearly everyone else sings dumb most of the time

evolving_doors

Croke Park = Gone

There's actually a better feeling about our imminent open day. Before it was a case of taking names/general resentment... now we were just given a date and whoever shows up shows up with no more said (most are going and happy to do so now).

Also there's none of this nonsense about what 'lecture' from an outsider we can count as CPD. No more meetings about 'the latest craze' in teaching. Teachers are back doing CPD whenever they can of their own volition.

Leave teachers alone and the vast majority will do what they have to to better themselves.

amacca

Strange isn't it....I'd feel the exact same way... re the open evening thing too.

r93kaey5p2izun

joebloggs32 wrote: »

You guys really need to involve your union on this. The calendar of coke park hours must be agreed through consensus between management and staff. If the principal won't agree to that then ye are well within your rights to refuse to do them.

We have sought clarification. The calendar being agreed on the basis of dates and times required is all that's needed we were told. We were told consultation was needed about the use of hours but not consensus - consensus only needed for use outside the 167 days or for blocks longer than 2 hours. The principal deems an annual vote on whether or not to do a day in August to be consultation. Otherwise we haven't been consulted in four years - this was a staff discussion with no resolution then decisions taken solely by the principal since then. Union reps sent out just keep repeating the same wording about consultation v consensus but are non-commital about doing anything concrete for us, they seem disinterested unless we were being forced to do an extra day.

Of course HoDs have tried to discuss the agenda for meetings but are just shrugged off. The position holds no authority really - it's just a rotating administrative role.

political analyst

amacca wrote: »

tldr: imo a lot of schools are not really democratic places and do operate in a top down way even if they give the impression of being otherwise, disciplinary action probably wouldn't happen anywhere but thats not the only way you can be made regret standing up for yourself.....all the little things make you question doing anything when nearly everyone else sings dumb most of the time

Do you mean that, in these schools, principals, even if they say to pupils that disrespect towards teachers will not be tolerated and even if the teachers they're in charge of are on first-name terms with the principals, operate in an authoritarian manner towards the teachers they are in charge of?

gaiscioch

wrote:

How does your school work CP Hours?

Had to check the date on the op as it doesn't, and long may this continue. The intelligence and happiness level in our staff room has rocketed since this stultifying detention for adults has been stopped. The self esteem, the sense of not being bullied, is back.

You'll still see teachers around school each day until 6pm but they're training teams, presiding over music or drama rehearsal, helping weaker kids whose parents can't afford grinds, and generally volunteering their time for something that contributes hugely to our society.

This government can keep its miserly after deductions increment; I've yet to meet a teacher who entered our profession for money. Let us protect this quality of career that we have finally wrested back from the myopic yellow packers in the Department of Education who would like to turn us all into pliant form-filling administrators of classrooms.

Icsics

gaiscioch wrote: »

Had to check the date on the op as it doesn't, and long may this continue. The intelligence and happiness level in our staff room has rocketed since this stultifying detention for adults has been stopped. The self esteem, the sense of not being bullied, is back.

You'll still see teachers around school each day until 6pm but they're training teams, presiding over music or drama rehearsal, helping weaker kids whose parents can't afford grinds, and generally volunteering their time for something that contributes hugely to our society.

This government can keep its miserly after deductions increment; I've yet to meet a teacher who entered our profession for money. Let us protect this quality of career that we have finally wrested back from the myopic yellow packers in the Department of Education who would like to turn us all into pliant form-filling administrators of classrooms.

Well said gaiscioch. Am thrilled not to be doing CP hrs, well worth any deduction they throw at us.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

Do you mean that, in these schools, principals, even if they say to pupils that disrespect towards teachers will not be tolerated and even if the teachers they're in charge of are on first-name terms with the principals, operate in an authoritarian manner towards the teachers they are in charge of?

I mean what I say and say what I mean generally. But you sort of have two issues intertwined there I think.....

In my experience (and I'm out of it now) yes the principal is in charge there may be a nod to collegiality and collective decision making but ultimately the principal tended to have a large proportion of the power and influence and could get things to operate their way...indeed sometimes there was very little nodding toward collegiality...

even in places where there is a nod to collegiality, collective decision making the principal usually holds sway (of course I have heard of schools with close to all out civil war going on or factions/cliques that rule the roost) but I think in general the piper plays the tune and everyone else dances at least to a certain extent...thats been my experience and its getting more like that as autonomy seems to be drifting away from the teacher.............I think this will ultimately (I'm talking long term here when they start to analyse the ridiculous nature of some of the current stuff I see being pushed through including the nonsensical CP hors) prove to be a bad thing

this doesn't mean an authoritarian principal won't back you up if a student has been disrespecting you however.........being in control and in charge doesn't automatically mean its a bad thing in my book (if thats what you were driving at?)

what i mean is everyone having a say and nothing getting done isn't ideal either...and likewise the opposite where no one can voice an opinion due to fear tactics etc won't work and isn't healthy as often people come up with good ideas or the compromise the majority come up with (while not being entirely satisfactory to both sides) is probably the best route to take even if it takes longer to get there and the very small percentage of nitwits (in every group in every workplace) have to be listened to.........

political analyst

amacca wrote: »

I mean what I say and say what I mean generally. But you sort of have two issues intertwined there I think.....

In my experience (and I'm out of it now) yes the principal is in charge there may be a nod to collegiality and collective decision making but ultimately the principal tended to have a large proportion of the power and influence and could get things to operate their way...indeed sometimes there was very little nodding toward collegiality...

even in places where there is a nod to collegiality, collective decision making the principal usually holds sway (of course I have heard of schools with close to all out civil war going on or factions/cliques that rule the roost) but I think in general the piper plays the tune and everyone else dances at least to a certain extent...thats been my experience and its getting more like that as autonomy seems to be drifting away from the teacher.............I think this will ultimately (I'm talking long term here when they start to analyse the ridiculous nature of some of the current stuff I see being pushed through including the nonsensical CP hors) prove to be a bad thing

this doesn't mean an authoritarian principal won't back you up if a student has been disrespecting you however.........being in control and in charge doesn't automatically mean its a bad thing in my book (if thats what you were driving at?)

Pretty much.

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Leave teachers alone and the vast majority will do what they have to to better themselves.

The above should be emboldened, enlarged tenfold,framed and hoisted opposite the desk of the Education minister and left there for all the ministers to come..

It is so simple but so startlingly true. Just leave us be and trust us to do our professional best.

And am also feeling the relief and happiness this year that those useless,miserable hours are gone. There's a spring in the step around our school that no money could buy.

Notorious

gaiscioch wrote: »

This government can keep its miserly after deductions increment; I've yet to meet a teacher who entered our profession for money. Let us protect this quality of career that we have finally wrested back from the myopic yellow packers in the Department of Education who would like to turn us all into pliant form-filling administrators of classrooms.

I would argue that the absence of pay parity is what is currently eroding the quality of our career. I did not enter this career to become a millionaire, but I do expect to be paid fairly for all the hard work I do.

evolving_doors

Notorious wrote: »

I would argue that the absence of pay parity is what is currently eroding the quality of our career. I did not enter this career to become a millionaire, but I do expect to be paid fairly for all the hard work I do.

CP hours is basically a way of telling you that you weren't working hard enough.

acequion

Gebgbegb wrote: »

CP hours is basically a way of telling you that you weren't working hard enough.

And reducing your monetary worth by making you work more hours for the same pay.

Notorious

Gebgbegb wrote: »

CP hours is basically a way of telling you that you weren't working hard enough.

I'm not in favour of CP. In our school it's a complete waste of time, we spend two hours working on pointless numeracy or literacy projects that are never completed or implemented.

I'm also not in favour of reducing the value of our profession by leaving our pay (post-2012 teachers) at a lower level than teachers on the earlier scale. Where will that stop?

How will the quality of our career be maintained without equal pay?