What are the rules if I want my tenant to move out?

lg01

I have a property which has been rented out for some time with the same tenant. I would like to get him to move out - but he's done nothing terribly wrong per se. I'm guessing I cannot just turf him out - but what exactly are the rules here? Can you simply tell a tenant you want the place back and he has to move somewhere else or how does it work? He's unemployed and on rent allowance.

godtabh

good luck getting him out!

Musketeer4

You can get a tenant out if you are selling the property or if you or a family member are moving back in there. Best of luck in getting rid of him.

Michael D Not Higgins

You must have a valid reason to terminate a Part 4 tenancy and give the required notice. Every 4 years a further Part 4 tenancy starts and you have 6 months in which you may issue notice of termination without a reason and give the required notice. This is the only case you can get rid of a tenant just because you want to.

The notice periods are below

Length of tenancy Notice that the landlord must give
Less than 6 months 4 weeks (28 days)
6 months or longer but less than 1 year 5 weeks (35 days)
1 year or longer but less than 2 years 6 weeks (42 days)
2 years or longer but less than 3 years 8 weeks (56 days)
3 years or longer but less than 4 years 12 weeks (84 days)
4 years or longer but less than 5 years 16 weeks (112 days)
5 years or longer but less than 6 years 20 weeks (140 days)
6 years or longer but less than 7 years 24 weeks (168 days)
7 years or longer but less than 8 years 28 weeks (196 days)
8 years or longer 32 weeks (224 days)

SarahS2013

All of the reasons and notice periods for this are here:
http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/how-your-landlord-may-end-your-tenancy/

Exactly how long has he been there? This is important as if by any chance he is in the first 6 months of his second Part 4 tenancy (i.e. He has been there between 4 years and 4 and a half years) then you do not have to give a reaosn. This is however subject to the proper notice been given as per link above.

Other than that its:
Termination due to rent arrears
Breach of obligations
Needed for family member
Selling
Substantial refurbishment
Change of use of the property

the_syco

Increase the rent, and hope he doesn't decided to stop paying rent, and just live there rent free until you evict him in a years time after a lengthily and costly court process, after which you may get €5 a month for the next century or so...

dudara

Some specific details on how long the tenant has been in situ will help

pc7

dudara wrote: »

Some specific details on how long the tenant has been in situ will help

Also why you want them out? If it is for yourself to have the house etc. that changes things greatly. If you just want more money and don't think they'll pay it then things can become a lot more difficult.

rawn

If he has done nothing wrong and you don't need to sell or move in yourself, why do you want to kick him out?

Musketeer4

Maybe he wants to get a working professional in the house rather than some dosser drawing the scratch who'll be putting more wear and tear on the house.
LLing is a business not a charity.

rawn

Musketeer4 wrote:

Maybe he wants to get a working professional in the house rather than some dosser drawing the scratch who'll be putting more wear and tear on the house. LLing is a business not a charity.

I never said it was, but he never mentioned a reason for wanting him out, which is relevant to the procedure for eviction.

Nice attitude, btw.

Speedwell

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Maybe he wants to get a working professional in the house rather than some dosser drawing the scratch who'll be putting more wear and tear on the house.
LLing is a business not a charity.

Funny, I don't see any of those things on the list of acceptable reasons to end a tenancy.

bobmalooka

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Maybe he wants to get a working professional in the house rather than some dosser drawing the scratch who'll be putting more wear and tear on the house.
LLing is a business not a charity.

OP stated there was nothing wrong with the tenant so no suggestion of excessive W&T.

Although no such thing exists, it's either W&T or damage. A LL who understands the business or a working professional for that matter wouldn't get such a simple concept wrong.

Edit: also where in the country is there work for professionals and places to rent under the rent allowance threshold?

The_Conductor

OP- why do you want to end the tenancy?
You need to let the posters know- as it is very pertinent to the advice you may be given.

maximum12

The_Conductor wrote: »

You need to let the posters know- as it is very pertinent to the advice you may be given.

And very pertinent to the abuse you will receive

lg01

Thanks all, yes I thought this was the case. Unusual situation but a family member used to manage the property for me and did a deal with the tenant whereby they gave them a lease saying the rent was lower than it actually was for the social welfare. Presumably as they would not get it approved in the first place - and the tenant topped it up themselves. It seems they then last year told the welfare that the rent was raised to its current level. Also unknown to me. Now when I try to have a rent review they say I can't as the rent was raised last year (which is wasn't). I would certainly not have done this myself but whats done is done. It's also against the rules for a landlord to do this so I doubt I want to draw attention to it. I don't want to throw the guy out even if I could - which I cant. But I'm losing money and I'm annoyed. Is there anything I can do?

rawn

Sorry I think your hands are pretty much tied until the 2 years is up from when he said you raised it. Very sneaky of him... You could let him know soon that you will be raising the rent by X amount as soon as you're allowed, at least then he has a year roughly to find somewhere new if he can't pay it - rather then him overholding if he can't find anywhere.

The_Conductor

One last avenue you could explore- is was the rent properly advised to the Residential Tenancy Board- when the tenancy was registered- or was the lower amount advised to them. If the rent (the complete rent) was properly advised to the RTB and returned in your tax return- you have a legitimate argument that you have not in fact had a rent review- despite what the guys in DSP would like you and the tenant to believe.

Check your records- and then confirm this with the RTB- and if the rent level was properly notified to them at the outset- you can in fact legitimately review it now- despite the protestations of the DSP and the tenant.

Be very careful how you word this- as you do not want to end up on the wrong side of a RTB Tribunal over the whole mess. Make sure you are 100% certain of facts- make a mistake here- and you'll have a judgement against you.

Aside from a rent review- there isn't really anything you can do at this stage- unless you or a family member *legitimately* want to move into the property. (alternatively- if you were to dispose of the property- the tenant could also be given legitimate notice to quit- however, in neither case can you say you're doing it- and not follow through). Also- if you are selling the property- have the viewings of a vacant, refurbished property- on average you'll get 20% more for a clean refurbished, property- than one with a sitting tenant).

Vis-a-vis you making a loss on the property- unfortunately- thats the nature of the game- its far from unusual to make a loss- and regardless of what you do, Revenue will want their pound of flesh ahead of anyone else, yourself included.

Its a mess- created by your 'helpful' family member who agreed to this hairbrained scheme- which was then compounded by the tenant deciding on what was best for them..........

Go- check what rent was advised to the RTB- and play it from there...........

pc7

How long is the tenant there? If your part 4 is almost up then in the first 6 months of new lease you can end with notice. (116 days)

lg01

The_Conductor wrote: »

One last avenue you could explore- is was the rent properly advised to the Residential Tenancy Board- when the tenancy was registered- or was the lower amount advised to them. If the rent (the complete rent) was properly advised to the RTB and returned in your tax return- you have a legitimate argument that you have not in fact had a rent review- despite what the guys in DSP would like you and the tenant to believe.

I'm not sure I want to go down this route as I'd fear it will give me more pain than anything else, I don't want to risk it. I do not want a tribunal as you say... The deal was done, it was against the rules, we were just desperate to get someone into the place so I guess the decision was made.

pc7 wrote: »

How long is the tenant there? If your part 4 is almost up then in the first 6 months of new lease you can end with notice. (116 days)

Interesting, they are there about 4 years at this stage. This might work. How do I find out more about this? Thanks

pc7

lg01 wrote: »

Interesting, they are there about 4 years at this stage. This might work. How do I find out more about this? Thanks

Check your original lease (or prtb registration date of tenancy), if they are in the first 6 months of new 4 year cycle you will be able to give notice.
from site 'The landlord can terminate the tenancy without specifying grounds during the first 6 months'
full details on part 4 can be found here https://www.irishlandlord.com/tips-advice_item/prtb-rtb-explained/

Michael D Not Higgins

lg01 wrote: »

Interesting, they are there about 4 years at this stage. This might work. How do I find out more about this? Thanks

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

"When the 4-year cycle of the tenancy has ended, a new tenancy starts, known as a further Part 4 tenancy. As at the start of your original tenancy, your landlord may end this tenancy at any time during the next 6 months without having to give a reason – though you must now get 112 days’ notice (16 weeks). After 6 months you again acquire security of tenure and you are now 6 months into a further 4-year cycle."

Also as I explained in my first response.

lg01

lg01 wrote: »

Interesting, they are there about 4 years at this stage. This might work. How do I find out more about this? Thanks

If they are living there over 4 years but not more than 4 years and 6 months then you can give them notice to move out without reason.

lg01

Ok, seems like I'm in luck. I don't seem to have the original lease (it may be somewhere) but from my bank statements I can see the first payment was just over 4 years ago. So I can simply serve them notice (with the proper notice period) and they have to move out? Do I risk them digging their heels in and making things difficult for me? I don't think they will do that but I have to be prepared...

Michael D Not Higgins

lg01 wrote: »

Ok, seems like I'm in luck. I don't seem to have the original lease (it may be somewhere) but from my bank statements I can see the first payment was just over 4 years ago. So I can simply serve them notice (with the proper notice period) and they have to move out?

Yes, 16 weeks notice.

Do I risk them digging their heels in and making things difficult for me? I don't think they will do that but I have to be prepared...

Yes it's a risk and it could take a year or two to get rid of them if they become stubborn.

The_Conductor

lg01 wrote: »

Ok, seems like I'm in luck. I don't seem to have the original lease (it may be somewhere) but from my bank statements I can see the first payment was just over 4 years ago. So I can simply serve them notice (with the proper notice period) and they have to move out? Do I risk them digging their heels in and making things difficult for me? I don't think they will do that but I have to be prepared...

They've already dug in their heels and made life difficult for you- by divulging the silly 'arrangement' your relation agreed with them at the outset.

You've nothing to loose here (the council are paying the rent- its not that the tenant is going to stop paying- making an assumption you're being paid directly?)

pc7

lg01 wrote: »

Ok, seems like I'm in luck. I don't seem to have the original lease (it may be somewhere) but from my bank statements I can see the first payment was just over 4 years ago. So I can simply serve them notice (with the proper notice period) and they have to move out? Do I risk them digging their heels in and making things difficult for me? I don't think they will do that but I have to be prepared...

No one can say for sure, but just follow the steps as outlined as closely as you can so that you have everything correct incase you need to go the RTB route. They have draft termination letters you can copy, either have it delivered by registered post or when you give it to them, text them there and then confirming you've handed it over and ask them to reply confirming same. Depending on the relationship you've had to date only you know. What is renting like in your area? How hard will it be for them to find a similar property? Would you let them stay if they agreed to a rent rise? These are things to consider.

pc7

The_Conductor wrote: »

You've nothing to loose here (the council are paying the rent- its not that the tenant is going to stop paying- making an assumption you're being paid directly?)

Are the council paying direct to LL? or to tenant to give to LL? sorry if I missed it.

_Kaiser_

godtabh wrote: »

good luck getting him out!

the_syco wrote: »

Increase the rent, and hope he doesn't decided to stop paying rent, and just live there rent free until you evict him in a years time after a lengthily and costly court process, after which you may get €5 a month for the next century or so...

Musketeer4 wrote: »

Maybe he wants to get a working professional in the house rather than some dosser drawing the scratch who'll be putting more wear and tear on the house.
LLing is a business not a charity.

And this is the problem with this forum....

What evidence do ye have that the OP's tenant fits the above description? Indeed, the OP himself says that the tenant has done nothing wrong.

The landlord bias on this forum is obvious and skews any reasonable discussion as it is. I understand the reasoning behind the statements above but ye are the first to complain if a tenant (who's been burned before) withhold's the last month's rent for example.. but are they not just protecting themselves too?

In short, you can't have it both ways - if you want good tenants who'll respect you and your properties, might I suggest you return the favor? Landlording/renting isn't a "cushy easy number" (for EITHER side) no matter how much ye might want it to be and good faith, respect and common decency are prerequisites from both sides.

If you just want to "collect the cash" then maybe being a LL isn't for you,

Butters1979

lg01 wrote: »

Thanks all, yes I thought this was the case. Unusual situation but a family member used to manage the property for me and did a deal with the tenant whereby they gave them a lease saying the rent was lower than it actually was for the social welfare. Presumably as they would not get it approved in the first place - and the tenant topped it up themselves. It seems they then last year told the welfare that the rent was raised to its current level. Also unknown to me. Now when I try to have a rent review they say I can't as the rent was raised last year (which is wasn't). I would certainly not have done this myself but whats done is done. It's also against the rules for a landlord to do this so I doubt I want to draw attention to it. I don't want to throw the guy out even if I could - which I cant. But I'm losing money and I'm annoyed. Is there anything I can do?

So you tried to con social welfare and this is what you got.

rawn

Butters1979 wrote:

So you tried to con social welfare and this is what you got.

Tbh the SW are well aware that these practices are happening and are turning a blind eye, otherwise the homelessness problem would be twice as bad