afraid to opt out

RobAMerc

hi folks,

Our 7 yo has started in 1st class in an RC school. I was never happy about him going there but in our opinion it is the best school around. I want to ask to have him opt out of religion, but we are afraid to do so as we fear it may impact on our daughter getting in to the school next year

Does anyone know the likelihood of this happening ?

thanks

Absolam

I'd say in general that most of the experiences related by parents on the forum regarding actually opting children out of religious instruction have been positive. Most schools I'd say are reasonably aware of their responsibilities and it's pretty unlikely that'll you'll be the first parent to ask.

That said, with regard to your daughter enrolling I would think whether or not your daughter is Catholic (not your son) would be relevant, and particularly whether you want her to have a Catholic ethos education. If she isn't, or you don't, and the intake of pupils is oversubscribed, the school can reasonably prefer a student who is Catholic, and whose parents do want them to receive the education the school provides.

judeboy101

Not being cheeky, but imagine sending a child to a gaelscoil and then deciding after two years that you weren't happy with learning through Irish. Legally if a child "opts out" the school has to provide cover to take care of that child during RE or a parent has to remove child from school for that period. School resources are scarce and they have to use hrs they get for SEN to cover exemptions. you ever think that maybe the reason it is the best school in the area is because of the ethos?

Absolam

Personally I can see an argument for wanting your child to get the quality education they might get in, say, a Jesuit school, but not wanting them to receive religious instruction there. If the school can accommodate that without compromising itself, then I think it probably should, and I think most religious schools probably would.

smacl

judeboy101 wrote: »

Not being cheeky, but imagine sending a child to a gaelscoil and then deciding after two years that you weren't happy with learning through Irish. Legally if a child "opts out" the school has to provide cover to take care of that child during RE or a parent has to remove child from school for that period. School resources are scarce and they have to use hrs they get for SEN to cover exemptions. you ever think that maybe the reason it is the best school in the area is because of the ethos?

Now imagine that gaelscoil was the only state funded school available in your area, you don't speak Irish, but you do pay the taxes that fund that school :rolleyes:

smacl

RobAMerc wrote: »

Does anyone know the likelihood of this happening ?

First thing to do is to check the enrolment policy for the school, which gives the order in which they prefer kids when there is competition for spaces. If having a sibling already attending ranks higher than religious affiliation, there shouldn't be a problem. If religious affiliation ranks higher, there could be.

frostyjacks

It would be hypocritical of you to send your children to a Catholic school if you don't want them learning about their faith.

You have to ask yourself who's interests are you putting first: your own or your children's? If it's your own interests, then logically and morally you should send them to a non-religious school. You don't want to be blocking places for children whose parents wish them to be brought up with the faith.

recedite

judeboy101 wrote: »

School resources are scarce and they have to use hrs they get for SEN to cover exemptions..

That is a BS argument because its written into the constitution that schools must provide an opt-out. If they can find the time and resources to teach the indoctrination, then they must also find the time and resources to cover the opt-out.
If they are short of resources, avoid both and just stick to the national curriculum.

sbsquarepants

judeboy101 wrote: »

Not being cheeky, but imagine sending a child to a gaelscoil and then deciding after two years that you weren't happy with learning through Irish. Legally if a child "opts out" the school has to provide cover to take care of that child during RE or a parent has to remove child from school for that period. School resources are scarce and they have to use hrs they get for SEN to cover exemptions. you ever think that maybe the reason it is the best school in the area is because of the ethos?

I'd say it's an extremely unlikely reason to be honest.

Teachers should stick to teaching, preachers should handle the preaching.

sbsquarepants

frostyjacks wrote: »

It would be hypocritical of you to send your children to a Catholic school if you don't want them learning about their faith.

You have to ask yourself who's interests are you putting first: your own or your children's? If it's your own interests, then logically and morally you should send them to a non-religious school. You don't want to be blocking places for children whose parents wish them to be brought up with the faith.

What a pile of horseshít.

If you want your kids to learn about the catholic faith - teach them yourself, send them to private lessons or simply bring them to church. Don't expect non catholic taxpayers to fund the teaching of your fairy tales.

RobAMerc

judeboy101 wrote: »

Not being cheeky, but imagine sending a child to a gaelscoil and then deciding after two years that you weren't happy with learning through Irish. Legally if a child "opts out" the school has to provide cover to take care of that child during RE or a parent has to remove child from school for that period.

Eh, there is a difference between me wanting my child to opt out of religious classes 3hrs a week, and me asking them to teach my child through a different language. They dont teach Math through Catholicism do they ?

judeboy101 wrote: »

you ever think that maybe the reason it is the best school in the area is because of the ethos?

I dont know if you are being serious here, so I cannot answer it.

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

It would be hypocritical of you to send your children to a Catholic school if you don't want them learning about their faith.

You do know many people in this country have no other choice right?
Their nearest ET school could be a 2hour drive away,

Also our constitution allows for parents to opt out, are you suggesting our constitution is wrong in this regard by giving parents a right in relation to choosing their childs religion (or lack of one)?

Do you belittle Muslims in the same manner as you're doing here for sending their children to the local school which they pay for with their tax? You appear to have an awful chip on your shoulder against people who don't subscribe to the catholic faith.....I would go so far as to say that its a very unchristian view towards other people.

Cabaal

RobAMerc wrote: »

I dont know if you are being serious here, so I cannot answer it.

I don't believe judeboy101 is trying to be funny or amusing,
I just believe judeboy101 is seriously ill-informed and ignorant to the actual issue, this certainly would explain why they used such a silly comparison in their post.

Personally I'd gloss over such nonsense and take it with a several truck loads of salt as only extreme people have such a silly viewpoint. Like hating gay people, its a viewpoint that is dieing bit by bit and they are trying their best to keep things the way they were. You can only feel sorry for such people in a weird way.

frostyjacks

sbsquarepants wrote: »

What a pile of horseshít.

If you want your kids to learn about the catholic faith - teach them yourself, send them to private lessons or simply bring them to church. Don't expect non catholic taxpayers to fund the teaching of your fairy tales.

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists try and dictate to Catholics where're allowed to practice their faith in their own country.

What part of sending Catholic children to a Catholic school doesn't make sense to you?

silverharp

surely the kids are entitled to lose their "faith" at any time. I cant see a scenario where a kid decides that they dont believe in Irish?

Cabaal

frostyjacks wrote: »

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists try and dictate to Catholics where're allowed to practice their faith in their own country.

Catholics have places, they are called church's
Of course only 30% of people who identify as catholics actually bother their arses to go to them on a weekly basis (just once!) and practice their faith, the rest couldn't give a monkeys about eating jesus on a weekly basis, so they don't believe in that or other stuff the church stands for.

Face it, your claims are a sham.
This isn't about having a place to practice faith, Catholics have that and a majority have no interest in it. This is only about retaining control of a tax payer funded school system,

Your posts at this stage are a utter farce frostyjacks, you're not kidding anyone

What part of sending Catholic children to a Catholic school doesn't make sense to you?

What part of our constitution doesn't make sense to you?
The OP is perfectly entitled to opt their child out, same as a Muslim parent is perfectly entitled to opt their child out.

You don't get to dictate that to people, this isn't the 1950's anymore

looksee

frostyjacks wrote: »

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists try and dictate to Catholics where're allowed to practice their faith in their own country.

What part of sending Catholic children to a Catholic school doesn't make sense to you?

What is a Catholic child? A child may have Catholic parents but the child has no say in whether they are baptised or not, they will not become Catholics until their Confirmation.

What is a Catholic school? A school that has been built and maintained by the State (ie, from taxes), with teachers and capitation paid by the state is only 'Catholic' because the state chose, over a hundred years ago, to allow churches - and in the vast majority of cases, the RC church, to be patrons of the schools.

txt_mess

Without trying to get caught up in the debate....

@OP as mentioned check the school policy if they enrol spaces by religion first then declaring the child as non catholic will definitely have an impact. I think however most schools do have sibling currently attending as a higher so hopefully there should be no issue.

Good luck.

recedite

txt_mess wrote: »

I think however most schools do have sibling currently attending as a higher so hopefully there should be no issue.

That is a fair point, and helpful. But I don't think the OP wishes to rely on a "hope" that is riding only on a wing and a prayer. Nor should they have to.
In reality though, you are right in saying it is at the whim of the school whether the sibling would be discriminated against later.

Cabaal

txt_mess wrote: »

Without trying to get caught up in the debate....

@OP as mentioned check the school policy if they enrol spaces by religion first then declaring the child as non catholic will definitely have an impact. I think however most schools do have sibling currently attending as a higher so hopefully there should be no issue.

Good luck.

I'd tend to agree,
The fact that there is an existing sibling will count ALOT towards getting your next child in,

Yes not being "catholic" would count against, but in all honesty it depends ALOT on the school. Some might be very picky about that but most will not unless the school is seriously over subscribed...but again having an existing sibling in the school counts alot even in that situation too.

In short, its pretty safe to assume that they are likely much more likely to allow your second child in because there is an existing sibling then allow a catholic in that doesn't have any sibling.

I'd suggest having a chat to the school,

robindch

frostyjacks wrote: »

It would be hypocritical of you to send your children to a Catholic school if you don't want them learning about their faith.

You have to ask yourself who's interests are you putting first: your own or your children's? If it's your own interests, then logically and morally you should send them to a non-religious school. You don't want to be blocking places for children whose parents wish them to be brought up with the faith.

This is possibly the finest post ever in A+A - I think I'm going to frame this one!

In just a few short sentences, and with an icecold clarity which most of us can only dream of, you've showed why religion should have no place in a school, or indeed, in the life of a trusting child.

Your lack of compassion, understanding, responsibility, or even simple interest, are complete.

Michael OBrien

frostyjacks wrote: »

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists try and dictate to Catholics where're allowed to practice their faith in their own country.

What part of sending Catholic children to a Catholic school doesn't make sense to you?

1. Its not their OWN country, it is all our country. We all pay taxes. The church does not.
2. School is not the place to practice faith. It is for education.
3. The schools are state funded. The fact that you seem to ignore. The church may own the LAND and building, that is all.

Absolam

Well, it certainly didn't take long for everyone to jump on their hobby horses and ride off ignoring the OP

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

Well, it certainly didn't take long for everyone to jump on their hobby horses and ride off ignoring the OP

You would never take the conversation off down a blind alley just for the sake of it, would you?

The Bishop Basher

RobAMerc wrote: »

Our 7 yo has started in 1st class in an RC school. I was never happy about him going there but in our opinion it is the best school around. I want to ask to have him opt out of religion, but we are afraid to do so as we fear it may impact on our daughter getting in to the school next year

Does anyone know the likelihood of this happening ?

First off op, to answer your question, it certainly shouldn't be a problem for him to opt out and while it shouldn't affect your daughter getting a place next year, no-one here can tell you for sure so you're only option really is to speak directly to the school.

Interesting though that you specifically turned down other options and chose the RC school despite having an issue with it. I'm not here to judge your choices and i can understand you just want the best education for your kids, but it seems lost on the angry mob here that you made the decision yourself. It wasn't foisted upon you..

I wonder how this will work in the future though when there's an abundance of secular state schools while the much sought after and oversubscribed faith based schools continue to offer a "better" education. I would personally always opt for the better school as i don't have any hang ups about religion and i don't believe kids are that easily indoctrinated anyway. I know I wasn't and my own weren't. But it would be interesting to see how the rabble here would vote. Would they hold dear to their principals and would they prioritise their kids education. I'm not suggesting that i know the answer. Just an observation is all..

smacl

Swanner wrote: »

I know I wasn't and my own weren't. But it would be interesting to see how the rabble here would vote.

The fact that you consider those who don't share your views as rabble suggests quite a bit of indoctrination from where I'm sitting. Sure aren't we all equal in the eyes of the mods

beechwood55

Did you have a choice of schools when you made your decision about where to send him? Was an Edcuate Together school a viable alternative?

The Bishop Basher

smacl wrote: »

The fact that you consider those who don't share your views as rabble suggests quite a bit of indoctrination from where I'm sitting. Sure aren't we all equal in the eyes of the mods

On the contrary, I share many of the same views...

I would be a little more middle of the road then most here which is almost always seen as dissent but ultimately I want the same things.. Just not at the expense of religion..

Out of interest though, What do you think i have been indoctrinated into believing and by whom ?

frostyjacks

robindch wrote: »

This is possibly the finest post ever in A+A - I think I'm going to frame this one!

In just a few short sentences, and with an icecold clarity which most of us can only dream of, you've showed why religion should have no place in a school, or indeed, in the life of a trusting child.

Your lack of compassion, understanding, responsibility, or even simple interest, are complete.

Is it really that astounding to you? That a parent who doesn't want their child educated in the Catholic faith to send them somewhere other than a Catholic school? I mean, that just sounds like common sense to me.

Did the child ask to opt out of religion or is it the parent that doesn't like it?

Timberrrrrrrr

frostyjacks wrote: »

Is it really that astounding to you? That a parent who doesn't want their child educated in the Catholic faith to send them somewhere other than a Catholic school? I mean, that just sounds like common sense to me.

Sometimes people have no choice.

Did the child ask to opt out of religion or is it the parent that doesn't like it?

Probably not, but then children have no option to opt out in this country as pressure is on parents to place them in a religion due to the stupidity of the RCC run schools insisting on children of that faith getting 1st choice for placement

The Bishop Basher

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Sometimes people have no choice.

And they should have a choice... but that's not relevant to this thread...

OP had a choice and opted for the RC school..

Timberrrrrrrr

Swanner wrote: »

And they should have a choice... but that's not relevant to this thread...

OP had a choice and opted for the RC school..

What was the choice though?

Catholic school 5 minutes away or ET school 25 miles away?

Sometime choice isn't always a good/viable thing

The Bishop Basher

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What was the choice though?

I don't know. You'd have to ask op. But given that they posted...

RobAMerc wrote: »

Our 7 yo has started in 1st class in an RC school. I was never happy about him going there but in our opinion it is the best school around.

i'm assuming they had options. Otherwise they would have said it was the only school around. Not the best one.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Catholic school 5 minutes away or ET school 25 miles away?

That could easily be the other way round. It's just depends on where you choose to live. Not sure what the point is tbh..

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Sometime choice isn't always a good/viable thing

You'll have to explain this one to me.. I would have thought choice when it comes to schools is always a good thing..

recedite

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What was the choice though?
Catholic school 5 minutes away or ET school 25 miles away?

OP has not said exactly what the choice was, only that "in our opinion it is the best school around".
Perhaps OP wants exclusivity, but only if its somebody else who is excluded?

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

OP has not said exactly what the choice was, only that "in our opinion it is the best school around".
Perhaps OP wants exclusivity, but only if its somebody else who is excluded?

Or perhaps they just want to ensure their kids get the best education available in their locality...

That's what i took from the op anyway..

sbsquarepants

frostyjacks wrote: »

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists try and dictate to Catholics where're allowed to practice their faith in their own country.

What part of sending Catholic children to a Catholic school doesn't make sense to you?

The part where non catholic tax payers are forced to pay for it.

I'm all for freedom of religion, whatever faith you want to practice is absolutely fine by me - I just don't want to pay to fund it.
I consider it to be a scandalous waste of both teaching time and taxpayers money.
If you either want to pay from your own pocket to bring your kids for private lessons on your own time, or the catholic church wants to fund it out of their own vast wealth, I have no issue whatsoever. Have at it.

robindch

sbsquarepants wrote: »

[...] or the catholic church wants to fund it out of their own vast wealth [...]

The church's problem is that it doesn't have a network of large buildings, one or more in every parish, suitable for the purposes of mass indoctrination. If it had such a network, it wouldn't need to rely on using the nations' schools.

Oh, hang on, I've just had a most wonderful idea!

RobAMerc

Swanner wrote: »

First off op, to answer your question, it certainly shouldn't be a problem for him to opt out and while it shouldn't affect your daughter getting a place next year, no-one here can tell you for sure so you're only option really is to speak directly to the school.

Does him opting out of those classes mean he is not a Catholic anymore, and more importantly does that mean his sister is not a Catholic ? She has been Baptised.

Swanner wrote: »

Interesting though that you specifically turned down other options and chose the RC school despite having an issue with it. I'm not here to judge your choices and i can understand you just want the best education for your kids, but it seems lost on the angry mob here that you made the decision yourself. It wasn't foisted upon you..

Ok, we chose to send him to this school as it is in our opinion the best of the schools around, the other options are RC mostly too with a Church of Ireland one and an educate together some distance away.

Swanner wrote: »

I wonder how this will work in the future though when there's an abundance of secular state schools while the much sought after and oversubscribed faith based schools continue to offer a "better" education.

I know folks willing to forge their baptismal certs to pretend they are Protestant in order to get their kids into what is perceived to be the best school around - I'll do what I can for my kids too, and if that means sending him to the RC school but asking for him to not be brainwashed indoctrinated so be it.

Swanner wrote: »

Or perhaps they just want to ensure their kids get the best education available in their locality...

That's what i took from the op anyway..

bang on !

looksee

frostyjacks wrote: »

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists Catholics try and dictate to Catholics atheists where're (?) allowed to practice their avoid practising someone else's faith in their own country.

ftfy

recedite

RobAMerc wrote: »

I know folks willing to forge their baptismal certs to pretend they are Protestant..

How does that work? Scribble out the bit that says "catholic" and write in "protestant" instead?
Its not gonna work.
I'm thinking you should have just sent your kid to the nearest school. This whole schools system we have really does bring out the worst in people.

The Bishop Basher

recedite wrote: »

How does that work? Scribble out the bit that says "catholic" and write in "protestant" instead?

Wouldn't work round this neck of the woods...

The prods here have to turn up at church every Sunday and make sure they're seen by the boss. Even then they're not guaranteed a place..

RobAMerc wrote: »

Does him opting out of those classes mean he is not a Catholic anymore, and more importantly does that mean his sister is not a Catholic ? She has been Baptised.

Fecked if I know. But i believe once you're in the club there's no way out so they're probably safe enough..

But ssshh Don't mention baptism round these parts :pac:

RobAMerc wrote: »

I'll do what I can for my kids too, and if that means sending him to the RC school but asking for him to not be brainwashed indoctrinated so be it.

So would I but i honestly don't believe kids get brainwashed in school. I've certainly never seen it happen. As parents we have far more influence both directly and indirectly. Their peers will also have a huge influence. But religion class in school ? I don't think so. Not unless they're thinking that way anyway. I'm not suggesting brainwashing doesn't happen, it does and ive witnessed that too. I can also completely understand why you want to opt them out, again, i would too.. But i do think the whole brainwashing thing is over played a little. There's a forum full of atheists here to prove it...

looksee

RobAMerc wrote: »

Does him opting out of those classes mean he is not a Catholic anymore, and more importantly does that mean his sister is not a Catholic ? She has been Baptised.

It depends on who you are asking. If your children have been baptised in the Catholic church, then they are Catholic, according to the church.

If you or they decide they are not Catholic then they are not.

Its rather an odd question though. You had them both baptised but now you want them to be not given RC religious instruction. How can your son not doing classes make your daughter a non-Catholic? And no, your son opting out of the classes does not make him not a Catholic, it makes him a non-practising Catholic.

Regardless of the fact of baptism all or any of you can say you are not Catholics and that will be the case. Except in the numbers game where you have donated two more members to the church.

I was baptised in the CofE, I do not consider myself an Anglican now, and put 'none' under religion on the census form. The CofE still have me as a number though.

smacl

Swanner wrote: »

So would I but i honestly don't believe kids get brainwashed in school. I've certainly never seen it happen. As parents we have far more influence both directly and indirectly. Their peers will also have a huge influence. But religion class in school ? I don't think so. Not unless they're thinking that way anyway. I'm not suggesting brainwashing doesn't happen, it does and ive witnessed that too. I can also completely understand why you want to opt them out, again, i would too.. But i do think the whole brainwashing thing is over played a little. There's a forum full of atheists here to prove it...

There's a bit more to the effect a Catholic ethos education will have on a child than just what goes on in a religion class. By effectively excluding children from other backgrounds from such schools, you're limiting the range of peer influence to children from other Catholic families. So for example rather than having friends who are Muslims, Atheists, etc.. these other people are presented second hand as potential terrorists or crackpots. Some might even consider those who are part of the club to be rabble, as per your previous post. It is also a terrible lesson for children to suggest this type of discrimination is reasonable and to be respected as part of our cultural inheritance, particularly since most of the nominally Catholic population don't appear to practise their religion any more. Local kids should go to local schools. Good for the kids, good for the parents, good for the community.

RobAMerc

Swanner wrote: »

So would I but i honestly don't believe kids get brainwashed in school. I've certainly never seen it happen. As parents we have far more influence both directly and indirectly. Their peers will also have a huge influence. But religion class in school ? I don't think so. Not unless they're thinking that way anyway. I'm not suggesting brainwashing doesn't happen, it does and ive witnessed that too. I can also completely understand why you want to opt them out, again, i would too.. But i do think the whole brainwashing thing is over played a little. There's a forum full of atheists here to prove it...

I get you, but we've had conversations where he has told me Holy God made that etc. There is also a lot of other nonsense I was told (and made to believe) ( sounds like brainwashed to believe ) that I just dont want them to have to deal with.
If I can put them in the best school and opt out of the nonsense I'll take that option thanks.

looksee wrote: »

Its rather an odd question though. You had them both baptised but now you want them to be not given RC religious instruction. How can your son not doing classes make your daughter a non-Catholic? And no, your son opting out of the classes does not make him not a Catholic, it makes him a non-practising Catholic.

they were baptised to give us the option of sending them to the Catholic schools - believe me it was out of necessity. Yes, they are Catholic but if i opt him out of those classes, could the school say then say, well your sister isnt coming in if your not Catholics ?

beechwood55

You would have to ask the school. What is their enrolment policy? Is this a situation that has happened before in that school?

byhookorbycrook

There should be no problem opting out and no issue with the sibling getting a place. Opting out may mean staying in the classroom though, as there are not spare teaching staff to cover taking a child elsewhere.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

You would never take the conversation off down a blind alley just for the sake of it, would you?

That sounds suspiciously like a blind alley... but to answer your post (which I'm often happy to do), of course I wouldn't

Qs

RobAMerc wrote: »

I get you, but we've had conversations where he has told me Holy God made that etc. There is also a lot of other nonsense I was told (and made to believe) ( sounds like brainwashed to believe ) that I just dont want them to have to deal with.
If I can put them in the best school and opt out of the nonsense I'll take that option thanks.



they were baptised to give us the option of sending them to the Catholic schools - believe me it was out of necessity. Yes, they are Catholic but if i opt him out of those classes, could the school say then say, well your sister isnt coming in if your not Catholics ?

Its a weird line in the sand you've drawn here Rob. You had your kid baptised, deliberately chose a catholic school despite other alternatives and now you are worried that your other child might not get in if you kick up a fuss about religion. Why didn't you opt him out of religious activities as soon as he entered the school?

RobAMerc

Qs wrote: »

Its a weird line in the sand you've drawn here Rob. You had your kid baptised, deliberately chose a catholic school despite other alternatives and now you are worried that your other child might not get in if you kick up a fuss about religion. Why didn't you opt him out of religious activities as soon as he entered the school?

the kids were baptised to give us options. we didn't have him opt out earlier as I didnt feel the need to, there didn't seem to be too much influence. But I am seeing the effects now and it doesnt sit well with me.

Absolam

RobAMerc wrote: »

the kids were baptised to give us options. we didn't have him opt out earlier as I didnt feel the need to, there didn't seem to be too much influence. But I am seeing the effects now and it doesnt sit well with me.

So in short, you engaged in a deception in order to have options, and now you're considering abandoning the deception you're worried it will limit those options? You're probably right; after all, it's why you did it in the first place. Assuming it's not your conscience that's bothering you, why not keep on with what you're doing until you're past having to worry about the options (your daughter is safely ensconced in the school you want) and then give up the pretense? Would that not ahve been your plan when you decided to baptise them in order to obtain the options in the first place?

looksee

And isn't it a pity that the RC church and the State collaborate to create these occasions of sin? How much better if parents were enabled to educate their children without these obstacles that are put in their way.