afraid to opt out

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

And isn't it a pity that the RC church and the State collaborate to create these occasions of sin? How much better if parents were enabled to educate their children without these obstacles that are put in their way.

Whether or not you think it's a sin, I don't think you can reasonably claim that the RC church and the State collaborated to create the occasion; RobAMerc seems to have made the decision of his own volition. I've no doubt there are those who would rather blame others for their choices than take responsibility for them, but I've no reason to think RobAMerc is one at this point.

looksee

Where did I refer to RobAMerc (odd name when you look at it)? I was making a general observation. If you do not understand the concept of 'creating an occasion of sin' maybe you should do some research.

Cabaal

Qs wrote: »

Its a weird line in the sand you've drawn here Rob. You had your kid baptised, deliberately chose a catholic school despite other alternatives and now you are worried that your other child might not get in if you kick up a fuss about religion. Why didn't you opt him out of religious activities as soon as he entered the school?

A parent can't change their mind now?
Would you be so critical of a parent who started off as a catholic and then changed to say protestant, Jewish or Muslim faiths?

There's nothing wrong with the OP changing their mind, in a proper equal and accepting school system their faith or lack of faith wouldn't make a difference. But understandably the OP is worried in this case because we have a broken school system which discriminates against children.

Blaming the OP in this situation is just silly, its the school system that is backwards and not meeting the needs of our modern society. At the end of the day the same barriers and concerns to the OP also exist for Muslim and Jewish family's.

In the end this issues simply should not exist in a tax payer funded school system, the same as we don't give different priority's to different faiths in our health system thats tax payer funded

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

Where did I refer to RobAMerc (odd name when you look at it)? I was making a general observation. If you do not understand the concept of 'creating an occasion of sin' maybe you should do some research.

Sorry, I thought you were sticking to the subject of the thread rather than taking the conversation off down a blind alley just for the sake of it. My apologies, away you go....

nozzferrahhtoo

frostyjacks wrote: »

The only fairy tale is the one where atheists try and dictate to Catholics where're allowed to practice their faith in their own country.

No, what they are doing is merely suggesting that your personal hobby should not be part of the school curriculum in a secular and pluralist state. You have your own club houses for your hobby. Go attend them, while we strive towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism. A curriculum that teaches solely things we have actual reason to think A) True or beneficial..... rather than teaching fantasies you made up that you want to indoctrinate people with early because you know you could never rationally convince them of it later.

frostyjacks wrote: »

What part of sending Catholic children to a Catholic school doesn't make sense to you?

The part where state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum, have anything to do with being "catholic" in the first place.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No, what they are doing is merely suggesting that your personal hobby should not be part of the school curriculum in a secular and pluralist state. You have your own club houses for your hobby. Go attend them, while we strive towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism. A curriculum that teaches solely things we have actual reason to think A) True or beneficial..... rather than teaching fantasies you made up that you want to indoctrinate people with early because you know you could never rationally convince them of it later. .

Ah now... it's fair to say that 'mere suggestion' is a considerable understatement for the strength of opinion put forward, even if it isn't about hobbies at all! And all this striving towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism really doesn't seem to amount to anything more than a bit of a talking shop... or at least I can't recall any posters claiming to have done much more than talk about it can you? Seems to be a touch of fantasy about your own opinion there.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The part where state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum, have anything to do with being "catholic" in the first place.

Well no one actually said that they do... but it's pretty apparent that those state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum are, in fact, by and large Catholic schools. So I suppose you could say Catholic schools have quite a lot to do with state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum. Maybe you were just thinking about it the wrong way round.

nozzferrahhtoo

Certainly looks like a hobby to me. Club houses and everything. No fantasy in my opinion however, as Atheist Ireland among others very much are campaigning actively for a system that endorses neither theism OR atheism. And they have been very clear they would be equally opposed to both. And you reading my statements the wrong way around does not mean I was thinking about it the wrong way around either.

You don't have to be non catholic to opt out if you're worried about that I suppose, surely there are some catholics who prefer to keep the religious instruction to sundays/at home

ScumLord

I don't know that I see all that much benefit to opting out of religious classes and services altogether. As far as religious class goes, it's something to learn, I kind of see religion as a sort of, sort of, history of human morals. Religion has been such a major aspect of human civilization for so long that it can't be ignored. I think it's worth learning about it (with some home schooling for counterbalance).

Catholics are great at shameful ostracisation and it's not like I think any of it is going to stick, especially with the homeschooling putting a very different slant on the experience. So I wouldn't be opposed to my child towing the line growing up, if they decided they didn't like it then I'd be more inclined to get them out.

Of course I fully understand why you'd want to remove that brainwashing from your child's life, but I think there are so many lessons to be learned by observing religion, how cultural norms affect people, mob behaviour, brainwashing. Part of me would actually be afraid that if you hide religion from them they might be more susceptible to it's charms once their out in the big bad world.

It's just, is it worth the hassle making a stand with your child's education and childhood? Do you think the religious indoctrination is still all that relevant to today's child? What are your neighbours like? Is the school very catholic or not very? Would you have much support?

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Certainly looks like a hobby to me. Club houses and everything.

Perhaps it's your perspective at fault then? Or maybe just your poor understanding of the word hobby.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No fantasy in my opinion however, as Atheist Ireland among others very much are campaigning actively for a system that endorses neither theism OR atheism. And they have been very clear they would be equally opposed to both.

True... and Michael Nugent does occasionally post here so I suppose it is fair to say that the 'we' you're saying is striving might more accurately be 'a bloke we're aware of'.

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And you reading my statements the wrong way around does not mean I was thinking about it the wrong way around either.

Nah, I read it just as you posted it, and like I said, whilst no one said state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum have anything to do with being "catholic" in the first place, it's perfectly apparent that Catholic schools have quite a lot to do with state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum.

nozzferrahhtoo

Always good to point out faults without substance, clarification or correction. Gives you something to say without saying anything. But no, no faults apparent here, atheists do campaign for a school system that endorses neither atheism nor religion, and you reading my point backwards to distort it is not indicative of problems on my side.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Always good to point out faults without substance, clarification or correction. Gives you something to say without saying anything.

I'll take your word for it I suppose?

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

But no, no faults apparent here, atheists do campaign for a school system that endorses neither atheism nor religion, and you reading my point backwards to distort it is not indicative of problems on my side.

I imagine they do, though that's somewhat different from the statement I took issue with, and no, still not reading it backwards, it still seems to be the case that Catholic schools have quite a lot to do with state funded schools implementing a state funded and designed curriculum.
If you'd like some substance or clarification for that; we have quite a lot of Catholic schools in Ireland. Most of them are state funded, and most of them teach state funded and designed curricula. They are almost inextricably involved with them one might say.

nozzferrahhtoo

Good, so taking my word for it, and you agree they do what I said they do. So aside from misrepresenting my statements, it appears you are in agreement with most of what I said. That was productive.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Good, so taking my word for it, and you agree they do what I said they do. So aside from misrepresenting my statements, it appears you are in agreement with most of what I said. That was productive.

No... I'm just taking your word for it that you think it's always good to point out faults without substance, clarification or correction, and it gives you something to say without saying anything. Since you didn't provide any substance for the assertion, you see.

I still don't think that 'we' are striving towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism, a curriculum that teaches solely things we have actual reason to think A) True or beneficial rather than teaching fantasies you made up that you want to indoctrinate people with early because you know you could never rationally convince them of it later. As I said, a bloke we're aware of does not a 'we' make, whether or not he'd endorse such a characterisation of his efforts. I do think 'we' have quite a lot of state funded Catholic schools implementing state funded and designed curricula though, if there's something you'd like to agree with. I'm pretty sure it's not a misrepresentation of your statement?

nozzferrahhtoo

Atheist Ireland are certainly campaigning actively for it. I am certainly campaigning actively for that. And every atheist I have personally talked to agree that a curriculum that endorses neither atheism OR theism in a pluralist society is the way to go. So I am quite happy with the statement that this appears to be representative of general atheist opinion on the matter, and it is reflected in the activities and agendas of organisations like AAI and the German Atheists organizations with whom I have dealt extensively.

Qs

Cabaal wrote: »

Blaming the OP in this situation is just silly, its the school system that is backwards and not meeting the needs of our modern society.

Oh he of course takes part of the blame. These people who baptise to get into schools are a big part of the problem. They skew the figures and prop up the status quo. I've very little sympathy for them if they then decide later that they don't actually like the way these religious schools are run. I have some sympathy if there are no other local options but we've already learned thats not the case here.

Samaris

Qs wrote: »

Oh he of course takes part of the blame. These people who baptise to get into schools are a big part of the problem. They skew the figures and prop up the status quo. I've very little sympathy for them if they then decide later that they don't actually like the way these religious schools are run. I have some sympathy if there are no other local options but we've already learned thats not the case here.

I have sympathy for parents that keep hearing how difficult it is to get children into schools (especially first time parents that don't have an elder child already in a school), that schools are massively over-subscribed and that if you pick the wrong school you may as well drop your sprog off at the local dump for seven hours a day :P.

I can see how they'd take the easiest route rather than making a stance, especially since it is that much-loved baby or young child that will pay the price if it's all true, and you just can't get him or her into a good school reasonably close to home because first preference is for Catholic children.


Waving your banner is one thing. Pinning your banner to your child who has no say in it is another. Now, personally, I include religious beliefs in that pinning of banners, but that's a separate topic!

Qs

I find this whole "good school" argument a bit of a red herring TBH. The difference in most schools in the same locality in Ireland doesn't vary that much. This isn't a country where you have to go to the right primary school if you want to get into Trinity or UCD etc.

Claiming that not baptising your kid is "pinning a banner on them" is utterly bizarre.

Michael Nugent

RobAMerc wrote: »

hi folks,

Our 7 yo has started in 1st class in an RC school. I was never happy about him going there but in our opinion it is the best school around. I want to ask to have him opt out of religion, but we are afraid to do so as we fear it may impact on our daughter getting in to the school next year

Does anyone know the likelihood of this happening ?

thanks

You have a constitutional right to opt your child out of religious education classes. If the school does not recognise that, then contact Jane Donnelly at human rights@atheist.ie for advice. We have always succeeded in getting schools to recognise that parents have this right when this issue arises.

Catholic schools do have exemptions from our equality laws that allow them to discriminate on the ground of religion, including in access if the school is oversubscribed, but they cannot use your vindication of your constitutional right with respect to one child, as a reason for discriminating against another child.

Is the school likely to be oversubscribed next year? If not, then you should not have a problem. If so, then they may ask for a baptism certificate for your daughter, but then again they may do this anyway if they are oversubscribed, regardless of your opting your older child out of religion.

How strict is the school with regard to enforcing its ethos?

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Atheist Ireland are certainly campaigning actively for it. I am certainly campaigning actively for that. And every atheist I have personally talked to agree that a curriculum that endorses neither atheism OR theism in a pluralist society is the way to go. So I am quite happy with the statement that this appears to be representative of general atheist opinion on the matter, and it is reflected in the activities and agendas of organisations like AAI and the German Atheists organizations with whom I have dealt extensively.

Like I said, without substance I'll have to take your word for how much you or anyone else is 'striving' towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism, particularly when it seems to me we have both already. If you're happy with the level of effort far be it from to me to encourage you to actually do something.

Absolam

Qs wrote: »

I find this whole "good school" argument a bit of a red herring TBH. The difference in most schools in the same locality in Ireland doesn't vary that much. This isn't a country where you have to go to the right primary school if you want to get into Trinity or UCD etc.

Claiming that not baptising your kid is "pinning a banner on them" is utterly bizarre.

I'm not so convinced of that at all. I was sent to a school almost an hour distant to my home, bypassing four more local schools, so that I could get the education my parents felt was best, as were my brothers. Back then most of us weren't destined for college, so maybe the school (particularly secondary, obviously) was more important, but my primary was chosen on the basis that it gave me an advantage in getting into the secondary that was chosen by my parents. And in my circle now much consideration is given to gaelscoileanna, ETs and denominational schools in judging which will give the greatest early advantage in terms of teacher attention and skills development. Saturday night conversations are not what they used to be.

nozzferrahhtoo

No need to take my word for it. Just observe the actions and words in interviews by actual atheists such as Atheist Ireland, Atheist Alliance International and more. Maybe start by reading all they said and did during the work they did together with Educate Together some time back. No need to take anyones word for it if you do not ignore the substance in order to pretend there is no substance there.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

No need to take my word for it. Just observe the actions and words in interviews by actual atheists such as Atheist Ireland, Atheist Alliance International and more. Maybe start by reading all they said and did during the work they did together with Educate Together some time back. No need to take anyones word for it if you do not ignore the substance in order to pretend there is no substance there.

Are they the 'we' that are striving towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism, a curriculum that teaches solely things we have actual reason to think A) True or beneficial rather than teaching fantasies you made up that you want to indoctrinate people with early because you know you could never rationally convince them of it later? If they are, saying there is substance to the statement is a little different from providing it... So we still seem to be taking your word for it, since you haven't even put forward what you own striving entails.

nozzferrahhtoo

I said what they were doing.

I gave you examples of them doing it.

Unclear what more you are looking for.

Unclear that YOU even know what more you are looking for.

Absolam

A substantiation of your assertion that 'we' are striving for all that you said? Not that I am looking for it, since I don't think you can provide it, if you recall I was pointing out that I thought you were fantasising.

nozzferrahhtoo

And given I have shown you that this is what we are striving for (we including, but not limited to us at Atheist Ireland) there is no fantasy involved. The position I espoused has been substantiated therefore.Perhaps your failing is in deciding for yourself who "we" refers to rather than asking me who I was referring to. So it your own imagination and fantasy that is in play here, not mine.

ShooterSF

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know that I see all that much benefit to opting out of religious classes and services altogether. As far as religious class goes, it's something to learn, I kind of see religion as a sort of, sort of, history of human morals. Religion has been such a major aspect of human civilization for so long that it can't be ignored. I think it's worth learning about it (with some home schooling for counterbalance).

Catholics are great at shameful ostracisation and it's not like I think any of it is going to stick, especially with the homeschooling putting a very different slant on the experience. So I wouldn't be opposed to my child towing the line growing up, if they decided they didn't like it then I'd be more inclined to get them out.

Of course I fully understand why you'd want to remove that brainwashing from your child's life, but I think there are so many lessons to be learned by observing religion, how cultural norms affect people, mob behaviour, brainwashing. Part of me would actually be afraid that if you hide religion from them they might be more susceptible to it's charms once their out in the big bad world.

It's just, is it worth the hassle making a stand with your child's education and childhood? Do you think the religious indoctrination is still all that relevant to today's child? What are your neighbours like? Is the school very catholic or not very? Would you have much support?

Maybe I'm in a minority here who was brought up catholic and it almost killed me, well drove me to do it for it. Between guilting, hell and worse if you're early sexual feelings aren't straight (I got lucky there). There is no way I'd let any child I brought into this world be told anything supernatural the RC preaches as truth.

ScumLord

ShooterSF wrote: »

Maybe I'm in a minority here who was brought up catholic and it almost killed me, well drove me to do it for it. Between guilting, hell and worse if you're early sexual feelings aren't straight (I got lucky there). There is no way I'd let any child I brought into this world be told anything supernatural the RC preaches as truth.

I grew up in the 80s, I got punished for doing the ouija board just to highlight the religious leanings of the school. However the two nuns that worked in the school weren't the monstrous nuns you hear stories about, one had lived in the states most her life so was much softer than Irish nuns. All the teachers, from primary school through to secondary school were abusive ****ers though. Religion would be just one area they would judge you, not playing GAA was another one, being a bit thick would get you bet.

The church was an overbearing oppressive society but they didn't have a huge influence on my life, as far as I could tell people back then were just backward and probably the result of a horrible upbringing themselves.


I don't think the church has any control over people anymore. Kids today just can't comprehend what they're talking about they're so far removed for even the language of church. The church is now competing with so many global influences and even the magic of the bible would seem common place to them. Jesus being able to heal the sick isn't miraculous to them, doctors do that every day.

I wouldn't have any fears that children today could be indoctrinated into religion, especially if their parents don't truly believe it.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And given I have shown you that this is what we are striving for (we including, but not limited to us at Atheist Ireland) there is no fantasy involved. The position I espoused has been substantiated therefore.Perhaps your failing is in deciding for yourself who "we" refers to rather than asking me who I was referring to. So it your own imagination and fantasy that is in play here, not mine.

But you haven't? You've claimed that AI are engaged in lobbying, but that's it.... Such a claim substantiates none of what you've said. Not least that you have striven at all... Never mind 'we'.

smacl

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think the church has any control over people anymore. Kids today just can't comprehend what they're talking about they're so far removed for even the language of church. The church is now competing with so many global influences and even the magic of the bible would seem common place to them. Jesus being able to heal the sick isn't miraculous to them, doctors do that every day.

I wouldn't have any fears that children today could be indoctrinated into religion, especially if their parents don't truly believe it.

The issue remains though that discriminatory enrolment policies mean that non-Catholics have a choice of either lying about their religion for pragmatic reasons or risk being excluded from their local school. This means that all those who actually have strong feelings contrary to the Catholic ethos tend to get channelled into schools without such policy such as ET schools, or schools that are under-subscribed for other reasons (e.g. greater travel distance or inaccessibility by public transport). The result here is that non-Catholics are under represented in Catholic ethos schools, and thus those from Catholic ethos schools do not get to mix with Muslims, atheists, etc... in their communities preserving and promoting an "us and them" attitude to cultural minorities. It also places an additional unreasonable burden on non-Catholics as they have fewer educational options for their kids, which often involve extra expense and travel. Lastly it works against integration of minority groups into local communities, preferring segregation. In my opinion, this is discriminatory, counter secular and damaging to our society as a whole.

From an intercultural perspective, I firmly believe the ET model is the way to go, where religious and cultural differences are acknowledged, accepted and explored.

nozzferrahhtoo

Absolam wrote: »

But you haven't? You've claimed that AI are engaged in lobbying, but that's it....

I mentioned more than AI. As I said, ignoring my substantiation does not mean I did not give any. I substantiated what I said. I have no intention of substantiation of what you want me to have said.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I mentioned more than AI. As I said, ignoring my substantiation does not mean I did not give any. I substantiated what I said. I have no intention of substantiation of what you want me to have said.

This is becoming a typical nozz conversation; you claim to have done something you haven't, refuse to produce any evidence, and flag wave over nobody refuting your assertion. When you can demonstrate that you have striven towards an all inclusive state education system and curriculum that does not endorse atheism OR any brand of theism, a curriculum that teaches solely things we have actual reason to think A) True or beneficial, rather than teaching fantasies you made up that you want to indoctrinate people with early because you know you could never rationally convince them of it later, I'll agree it's true. Until then, I stand by what I said; your efforts as far as I can see don't amount to anything more than a bit of a talking shop.

Hotblack Desiato

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think the church has any control over people anymore.

Really? The RCC still controls 90% of primary schools, good luck getting a job in one of those if you don't toe the RC line. Say or do anything the local bishop doesn't like and your career could be over.

Parents baptising their kids into a religion they don't believe in because they fear that they will not get a school place. Is that control?

You might also want to consider Article 40.3.3, how it came to be inserted into the constitution, who campaigned for it (And is now campaigning to retain it) and the effect that has on women's right to control their own bodies.

nozzferrahhtoo

Absolam wrote: »

This is becoming a typical nozz conversation

So we are making it personal now instead are we? Nice. But no, I was clear what I said, I was clear what I meant, and I was clear what the basis of it was. If you are having an issue with any of that the failing is typical of you and your MO, not me. Your efforts as far as I can see don't amount to anything more than a bit of a talking past people.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

So we are making it personal now instead are we? Nice. But no, I was clear what I said, I was clear what I meant, and I was clear what the basis of it was. If you are having an issue with any of that the failing is typical of you and your MO, not me. Your efforts as far as I can see don't amount to anything more than a bit of a talking past people.

An observation on your typical posts is hardly personal, but the above is a good example of just what I'm talking about. So I think we're about at the point where your dialogues are typically done

nozzferrahhtoo

Still making it personal then, talking about me now instead of my post. Nice.

I repeat, I have explained what I meant by "we", and who I was talking about. What you still have an issue with is not clear to me or, I suspect, to you.

Absolam

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Still making it personal then, talking about me now instead of my post. Nice. I repeat, I have explained what I meant by "we", and who I was talking about. What you still have an issue with is not clear to me or, I suspect, to you.

Still talking about your posts I'm afraid, and yes, I can see what you're repeating; the usual. You can read what I wrote in post 83, I don't think repetition is going to move us along.

nozzferrahhtoo

Great. Perhaps repeating it helps then. You might end up understanding it sometime too.

Absolam

So OP, after the dust settles on the nonsense, any thoughts on what you're going to do? Have our meanderings given you food for thought or just heartburn?

robindch

^^^ Folks, no need to start heckling - you're both well capable of much better