Pay restoration??? -Tui

History Queen

Hi, I'd be very grateful if someone would check the maths on this for me.

A colleague and I were discussing the latest pay restoration deal for teachers today (which i saw as a good thing). She, however, pointed out to me that all is not what it seems. Using her own situation this is what she explained-

Currently she is on post 2012 scale, point 4
€37372

In Jan 2017 under this new deal she will get
€37529

In Jan 2018 under this deal and also including second s&s payment and €1000 under HRA she will get €40551(now on point 5 of scale)

This sounds ok until you realise that a colleague with the same amount of incremental credit PRE 2011 would be on €46675 (point 7 of scale as pre 2011 start on point 3 and inclusive of H.Dip and Primary degree allowances). That's a pay disparity of €6124.

Firstly can someone confirm the maths on this is correct and secondly if it is are unions not celebrating a "significant" step towards pay parity prematurely ?

I've looked over the maths and *think* she is correct but would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

man_no_plan

History Queen wrote: »

Hi, I'd be very grateful if someone would check the maths on this for me.

A colleague and I were discussing the latest pay restoration deal for teachers today (which i saw as a good thing). She, however, pointed out to me that all is not what it seems. Using her own situation this is what she explained-

Currently she is on post 2012 scale, point 4
€37372

In Jan 2017 under this new deal she will get
€37529

In Jan 2018 under this deal and also including second s&s payment and €1000 under HRA she will get €40551(now on point 5 of scale)

This sounds ok until you realise that a colleague with the same amount of incremental credit PRE 2011 would be on €46675 (point 7 of scale as pre 2011 start on point 3 and inclusive of H.Dip and Primary degree allowances). That's a pay disparity of €6124.

Firstly can someone confirm the maths on this is correct and secondly if it is are unions not celebrating a "significant" step towards pay parity prematurely ?

I've looked over the maths and *think* she is correct but would appreciate it if someone could confirm.

Look I'm not being an apologist for the TUI or DES or anyone here bbut she's going to be 2 grand better off.

Its a long way off pre 2011 but its better than a kick in the arse at the same time. Ilk putvit this way, if there was to be a vote on it would she vote for it or against it?

deiseindublin

Your figures are correct, it's nowhere near parity but the TUI need to pretend it is to keep the positive spin going.

History Queen

Thanks for the replys. I just checked over the scales myself...I've spent a few hours calculating figues, and to be honest, I'd vote against it. I can't speak for my colleague.

I'd vote against it because I feel the executive feel the same as you do...that it's a pay rise so we should be happy... nope...I'm sick of crumbs. I don't do €6000 less work than my colleagues...if you want equal work I want (and deserve ) equal pay.

The more i read of the language the tui are using the more sickened I am... major gains...spectacular moves towards parity...let's call a spade a spade
it's a minor concession to try bully and intimidate ASTI members to comply.

TheDriver

Your phrase above is pertinent-a spectacular move towards parity. The unions have gotten the govt to change peoples starting conditions and that's huge in the public service. Now to see if they can do more......
(doesn't mean its fair or equitable but its a major step)

Chilli Con Kearney

Fair play Op. Now go and shout about this 'restoration' from the rooftops. The TUI and Des want people to believe that all teachers are on the same pay now. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's disgusting, it's wrong and there's too many apologists out there saying otherwise. People essentially condoning the situation of two doing the same work but one on inferior pay and pension for life.

All this talk of a first step? You must be kidding me. That's the teachers done. Now of you run you little pups. Be happy with what you have.

joebloggs32

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Fair play Op. Now go and shout about this 'restoration' from the rooftops. The TUI and Des want people to believe that all teachers are on the same pay now. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's disgusting, it's wrong and there's too many apologists out there saying otherwise. People essentially condoning the situation of two doing the same work but one on inferior pay and pension for life.

All this talk of a first step? You must be kidding me. That's the teachers done. Now of you run you little pups. Be happy with what you have.

If you read the article posted here I think you will find the TUI are saying no such thing.
http://www.tui.ie/news-events/progress-in-campaign-towards-pay-parity-tui-qa-.9129.html

Don't let facts get in the way of point scoring. The clue is in the word progress. I'm not happy about seeing my colleagues on an inferior pay scale, but at least the gap is starting to close.

Chilli Con Kearney

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If you read the article posted here I think you will find the TUI are saying no such thing.
http://www.tui.ie/news-events/progress-in-campaign-towards-pay-parity-tui-qa-.9129.html

Don't let facts get in the way of point scoring. The clue is in the word progress. I'm not happy about seeing my colleagues on an inferior pay scale, but at least the gap is starting to close.

I've read that article as well as the document itself. While the truth is in there, most don't read these.

I've heard this described as 'significant' and 'fabulous'. It's anything but. It's reinforcing the immoral two pay approach and if you think it's the first step forward, fair play to you. I think you're mad.

The reality is that deal arose under the threat of Asti strike action. The tui practically had to threaten action before the promised talks/evaluation took place. If that's how it's gone previously, fair play to your faith and belief that more progress will be made.

joebloggs32

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I've read that article as well as the document itself. While the truth is in there, most don't read these.

I've heard this described as 'significant' and 'fabulous'. It's anything but. It's reinforcing the immoral two pay approach and if you think it's the first step forward, fair play to you. I think you're mad.

The reality is that deal arose under the threat of Asti strike action. The tui practically had to threaten action before the promised talks/evaluation took place. If that's how it's gone previously, fair play to your faith and belief that more progress will be made.

It was the threat of strike as a result of a ballot 9 months ago that opened the door for talks. The TUI timed their action to coincide with the election at the time, which as a strategy worked in opening the door. Dont forget they have also agreed a new directive that should help reduce casualistion in the profession. The ward report was another significant step forward a few years ago, along with the changes to the JCT. So yes I do have faith in the continued efforts being made by the union in the fight against the cuts to our terms and conditions.
The ASTI are only now getting around to their ballot on the issue. If I was a NQT in the ASTI I would be asking why it is only now they are making a move on the issue.

Chilli Con Kearney

If I was an NQT in the TUI, I'd be wondering why/how my union agreed to a 'step' towards pay parity in stead of actual parity. I'd be rightly p**sed that they agreed a half-baked scenario like we have now. I'd be severely concerned about the message that it sends to the greater public and government about the acceptance of differentiated payscales.

I'd also be wondering about concessions, efficiencies and the like which have been mooted.

But hey. I'm thinking longterm here. The DES have waved a few Euro signs infront of the TUI and they've bitten. Short-term gain for longterm pain. Fair play to them. They have the union exactly where they want them.

History Queen

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

If I was an NQT in the TUI, I'd be wondering why/how my union agreed to a 'step' towards pay parity in stead of actual parity. I'd be rightly p**sed that they agreed a half-baked scenario like we have now. I'd be severely concerned about the message that it sends to the greater public and government about the acceptance of differentiated payscales.

I'd also be wondering about concessions, efficiencies and the like which have been mooted.

But hey. I'm thinking longterm here. The DES have waved a few Euro signs infront of the TUI and they've bitten. Short-term gain for longterm pain. Fair play to them. They have the union exactly where they want them.

You have expressed my feelings exactly in this post. I mean.. if our union honestly think this is something to celebrate what hope have we? I don't understand the mentality of it being a step in the right direction. Draconian cuts and new payscales were brought in at the swipe of a pen so pay parity could be IF there was the political will or sufficent pressure applied.

And before anyone says it I have contacted my union. Can i please urge any TUI members who feel the same to email their local branch secretary who will then forward these concerns to the executive. I have been advised by my branch that this is the best way to bring our concerns to the fore but we need volume....and please please please attend branch meetings otherwise your union subscription is a waste of money. No one is going to put our concerns on the agenda for us.

Our union won't work for us unless we are vocal.

joebloggs32

Well I suppose some of us in this world see the glass half full, while others see it half empty.

deiseindublin

....while TUI thinks 1/2 glass is enough.

History Queen

deiseindublin wrote: »

....while TUI thinks 1/2 glass is enough.

And that is the real worry...will they push the equal pay agenda at all now?

deiseindublin

I don't think so HQ, they'll just keep telling us what they achieved and that they're still in talks.

I mean, they 'brokered' a great deal for us last May, basically recommended we sign up for LRA2 even though we'd already voted 86% that we didn't want it. What's the point in casting our votes to begin with?

I'm ashamed to have a TUI label. Was talking to a friend last night where their TUI reps have given up as rep and they can't get another to do it in the school because they've all washed their hands of such a spineless organisation that folds first every time and basically doesn't represent them.

(Looking at the doctors going to court for their promised back money, I'm wondering what all the teaching unions didn't just refuse to talk when promised S&S money didn't materialise and go at it legally.)

amacca

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't think so HQ, they'll just keep telling us what they achieved and that they're still in talks.

I mean, they 'brokered' a great deal for us last May, basically recommended we sign up for LRA2 even though we'd already voted 86% that we didn't want it. What's the point in casting our votes to begin with?

I'm ashamed to have a TUI label. Was talking to a friend last night where their TUI reps have given up as rep and they can't get another to do it in the school because they've all washed their hands of such a spineless organisation that folds first every time and basically doesn't represent them.

(Looking at the doctors going to court for their promised back money, I'm wondering what all the teaching unions didn't just refuse to talk when promised S&S money didn't materialise and go at it legally.)

It would be interesting to find out why they don't go down that route...

Broom16

Hi everyone

Can someone please please please help me.

I started teaching 15/12/13 in a etb school and we are all TUI members, I am now on pay scale 3, with a primary degree.

Am I entitled to the 5000 euro primary degree allowance and the 2000 pay restoration? What pay scale should I be on. Or better Ananias what should I be getting a week after tax?

Jaysus they don't make things easy.

joebloggs32

Broom16 wrote: »

Hi everyone

Can someone please please please help me.

I started teaching 15/12/13 in a etb school and we are all TUI members, I am now on pay scale 3, with a primary degree.

Am I entitled to the 5000 euro primary degree allowance and the 2000 pay restoration? What pay scale should I be on. Or better Ananias what should I be getting a week after tax?

Jaysus they don't make things easy.

Assuming full hours, you now have 3 years worked for increments. The next increment for you should put you up to point 4 on the revised new entrant scale. However, due to a six month permanent delay in awarding increments brought in under the HRA it will be at least March before that happens, maybe later in your case as your appointment was in December.
What is coming to you is a rise of 1k in January, another 1k in September plus €796 for S&S, and another 1k in January 2018 as things stand.
Put that with the increment that will arrive in March (or maybe 3 1/2 months later in your case) and your salary will be increased by ca. €5000 in Jan 18 compared to now. This is before anything else that may come your way if we get a LRA2 from the public service pay commission in the new year.
Look up the tui website to see the new pay scale.

In theory by jan 18 the degree allowance will then have been restored. However the hdip/ masters allowance will not have been, so the TUI have lodged a claim at the Teachers Conciliation Council for this. If this was granted the final difference in new entrant pay with older colleagues would be the 10% pay cut applied to all public servants who entered after 2011. This cut will be very much the focus of the pay commission in the new year. The department refused to discuss this individually with the teaching unions as they said it was not their gift to give it back.

deiseindublin

I have to say that the thread title annoys me here, should really be edited to read "Partial Pay restoration - TUI"

joebloggs32

deiseindublin wrote: »

I have to say that the thread title annoys me here, should really be edited to read "Partial Pay restoration - TUI"

Or how about better than no restoration.

MrJones1973

Speaking as Asti - why not join us !? The fight is not over yet
we (Asti) will spark back into life in January.

positivenote

hi guys,
im wondering what this 'restoration' means for those of us who are earning 65k (point 3 of L-scale in an IOT) that will not increase as I progress on to point 4 of the scale? Financially how better off will I be and when...
Thanks

TheDriver

positivenote wrote: »

hi guys,
im wondering what this 'restoration' means for those of us who are earning 65k (point 3 of L-scale in an IOT) that will not increase as I progress on to point 4 of the scale? Financially how better off will I be and when...
Thanks

There is a 50% roll back of FEMPI reductions in April and final 50% next Jan.

man_no_plan

TheDriver wrote: »

There is a 50% roll back of FEMPI reductions in April and final 50% next Jan.

And your two 18 month increment periods should be almost expired

deiseindublin

Also, €1000 extra if your basic pay (without post allowances) is under €65.