Galway traffic: the solution

Mrs OBumble

talking_walnut wrote: »

If it took 45-60 mins to get to work by car, or a guaranteed 30 mins by bus, which would you take then?

I cannot think of any car journey where the trip time is guaranteed. (Except maybe from one floor to another in a car-parking building!)

If the bus is delayed due to traffic, then likely a car journey will be to. Sometimes car-users can alter their route to take account of heavy traffic in on area - but not always.

Whereisgalway

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I cannot think of any car journey where the trip time is guaranteed. (Except maybe from one floor to another in a car-parking building!)

If the bus is delayed due to traffic, then likely a car journey will be to. Sometimes car-users can alter their route to take account of heavy traffic in on area - but not always.

They could if they had proper bus lanes

bobbyss

GekkePrutser wrote: »

Sounds like a good option actually. It'd only be a small tunnel, I don't really see the problem with it. In the Netherlands we have had this problem of overcrowding and road congestion much longer and there's tunnels everywhere. Even little ones just for pedestrians/cyclists. They're not even that expensive, they just sink some prefab tunnel blocks. They even tunneled a long freight railway because it was seen as an eyesore. I like it. It should be a serious option on the table.

Regarding the reliance on fossil fuels, I don't really expect the number of cars to ever lower really. We'll become less reliant on fossil fuels but the alternatives such as electric cars are becoming mature. The capacity of the electrical grid and production of green power is more of a problem but it'll get solved over time. It'll have to as fossil fuels are running out anyway.

I'd never get rid of my car anyway though I would take public transport to work if it was viable. I actually live near the terminus of the 405 and work near the terminus at the other side. Theoretically an ideal setup.

But Bus Eireann's insistence to slowly meander through the city center (and wait there like 10 minutes) makes this service completely unviable. It takes way too long and the service is too unreliable. I use it sometimes when my car is in the shop and it's seriously more than twice as slow as driving home in the evening. In the morning more like 5 times as slow.

IMO Bus Eireann really need to retire all their 50+ 'stuck in their ways' management and hire some young people who are able to think outside of the box. Everything that's coming out of them has this 'old guard' thing about it. And it's not as if they're doing a good job right now after all.

But it doesn't mean that nothing should be done with the roads. We're going to need them in the future even more than we do now. The M6 will bring more people to galway once the economy picks up again.

Agree with you completely re trudging through these medieval streets. When I see buses creaking their way around Moons corner and trying to negotiate the Salmon Weir it makes your heart sink. Last week took a bus from Eyre Sq and twenty-five minutes later I reached the Abbey. Could have walked faster and arrived at my destination sooner too. A disaster. To add insult to injury their website is sh1t too.

Agree also with the mind set of BE. Old fashioned. Old timers. Time servers. No zip about them. Very civil servicey. Backward looking. I actually get the same sinking, depressing feeling when I go to get a train ticket in the train station.

talking_walnut

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I cannot think of any car journey where the trip time is guaranteed. (Except maybe from one floor to another in a car-parking building!)

If the bus is delayed due to traffic, then likely a car journey will be to. Sometimes car-users can alter their route to take account of heavy traffic in on area - but not always.

That's my point. Buses are nerly pointless without dedicated bus lanes that go the full length of the route.

bobbyss wrote: »

Agree with you completely re trudging through these medieval streets. When I see buses creaking their way around Moons corner and trying to negotiate the Salmon Weir it makes your heart sink. Last week took a bus from Eyre Sq and twenty-five minutes later I reached the Abbey. Could have walked faster and arrived at my destination sooner too. A disaster. To add insult to injury their website is sh1t too.

Agree also with the mind set of BE. Old fashioned. Old timers. Time servers. No zip about them. Very civil servicey. Backward looking. I actually get the same sinking, depressing feeling when I go to get a train ticket in the train station.

Ya it's heartbreaking taking the bus through the city. Buses would fit fine on all those roads if it wasn't for all the cars though. They should never be sharing space like that.

Not sure it's Bus Eireanns fault though. They don't control the roads.

Mrs OBumble

talking_walnut wrote: »

That's my point. Buses are nerly pointless without dedicated bus lanes that go the full length of the route.

Nearly pointless is a massive overstatement.

I've caught buses to and from work for the last five years, on routes with no bus lanes. Far less stressful and expensive than running a car (no worries with other drivers, parking, maintenance, NCT, petrol). Absolutely not "nearly pointless" - most journeys (estimate 80%) were within one or two minutes of the timetabled time.

It's easier to run a train-like bus service if you have dedicated bus lanes. But still possible to run an adequate one without them.

talking_walnut

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nearly pointless is a massive overstatement.

I've caught buses to and from work for the last five years, on routes with no bus lanes. Far less stressful and expensive than running a car (no worries with other drivers, parking, maintenance, NCT, petrol). Absolutely not "nearly pointless" - most journeys (estimate 80%) were within one or two minutes of the timetabled time.

It's easier to run a train-like bus service if you have dedicated bus lanes. But still possible to run an adequate one without them.

I'm speaking in generalities here but considering most people drive to and from work I think most would agree with my statement. Particularly the people who are commuting across the city everyday and causing most of the traffic problems.

Even if I did take the bus every day, I still need to own a car for some things (again a situation I think most people would also be in). Since tax, insurance and NCT are independent of how much you use the car, I have already paid a significant proportion of the cost of running the car before I go anywhere in it. So when I leave the house in the morning, I have the choice of taking my car and having a 20-40min commute, or taking the bus and having a 40-120min commute. I'd be an idiot to take the bus. It would at least double my commute time every day.

"Adequate" isn't going to make people leave their cars at home.

martinkop

Currently public transport cannot replace cars for most commuters, as the time/route means longer journeys. Plus as already pointed out most people need a car for other reasons than just commuting to work. As pointed out already, I have forked out ~€1500 just to have my car allowed on the road for the year, so I'm more likely to use that than pay for a slower commute on a bus

Panthro

Start a tunnel the far side of Claregalway that splits in two directions, one that pops up at Park more, the other out the far side of the city.

And a skytrain.

Discodog

The solution is a bypass but the authorities will do everything possible to avoid it. So the problems will just get worse. No amount of traffic plans, public transport etc will overcome basic geography. I have minimised when I have to cross the City. If a client wants me to then they pay a hefty premium.

You have to really know the rat runs. If you follow the main routes you can be stuck for hours. It's obvious that you have to provide the people, passing through the city, with an alternative. The only alternative is to go around it.

talking_walnut

Discodog wrote: »

The solution is a bypass but the authorities will do everything possible to avoid it. So the problems will just get worse. No amount of traffic plans, public transport etc will overcome basic geography. I have minimised when I have to cross the City. If a client wants me to then they pay a hefty premium.

You have to really know the rat runs. If you follow the main routes you can be stuck for hours. It's obvious that you have to provide the people, passing through the city, with an alternative. The only alternative is to go around it.

It seems like it's the solution but all the research shows that building more roads just causes more people to drive and eventually increases overall traffic congestion. I'd be worried the same thing would happen here.

It's not a simple problem. The intuitive solutions seem to end up making problems worse instead of better. The only real solution is less cars on the road, but people seem to think it's their divine right to drive everywhere.

Mrs OBumble

Discodog wrote: »

but the authorities will do everything possible to avoid it.

What makes you think this?

From where I'm sitting, more or less the opposite seems to be true.

Discodog

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What makes you think this?

From where I'm sitting, more or less the opposite seems to be true.

Because I still that it will ever happen & in the meantime there will be increasing pressure to stop it. Even if it is built it won't be done properly & may well end up with bottlenecks that force people through the City.

Discodog

talking_walnut wrote: »

It seems like it's the solution but all the research shows that building more roads just causes more people to drive and eventually increases overall traffic congestion. I'd be worried the same thing would happen here.

It's not a simple problem. The intuitive solutions seem to end up making problems worse instead of better. The only real solution is less cars on the road, but people seem to think it's their divine right to drive everywhere.

I think that Galway is different. It is about geography. The last I heard the planners were claiming that the existing roads can cope with through traffic. I thought that the Council visited Oxford. If so they will of seen the solution. Fast efficient park & ride combined with a bypass.

KevR

beardybrewer wrote: »

I took the bus once in Galway and it took longer than just walking. Haven't bothered again since.

I've a sneaking suspicion I'm part of the silent majority that sees public transportation in Galway as entirely useless.

It's a similar experience for me. A number of bus routes serve the area that I live in but it's actually quicker to walk 20 mins into the city centre.
Each of the various bus services use an indirect route from here into the city centre, zig-zagging all over the place and stopping every 30 seconds (it's a bus service for crying out loud - why are they stopping every 30 seconds attempting to drop every passenger at their door step as though it were a taxi, a few mins walk at either end of the bus journey is perfectly reasonable).

talking_walnut wrote: »

I think most people with a car see it as useless. But they also freak out when it's suggested that some of the existing roads be reclassified as bus lanes.

If it took 45-60 mins to get to work by car, or a guaranteed 30 mins by bus, which would you take then?

There is no reason why some existing roads can't be widened to add bus lanes. Drastically cutting capacity for car users by reclassifying existing road space is not the only option!

Also, the fact that no scheduled bus service uses the existing Quincentenary Bridge must be addressed before we discuss taking existing road space and making it bus only. Running ALL cross-city bus services through Eyre Square is beyond a joke.

Ideally, funding could be got for a 12 month trial of running some bus services across the Quincentenary Bridge, avoiding Eyre Square. The council can put together funding for a seasonal Park and Ride from the Race Course into town - why can't the fund a trial for a new cross-city bus service.

what_traffic

KevR wrote: »

There is no reason why some existing roads can't be widened to add bus lanes. Drastically cutting capacity for car users by reclassifying existing road space is not the only option!

Also, the fact that no scheduled bus service uses the existing Quincentenary Bridge must be addressed before we discuss taking existing road space and making it bus only. Running ALL cross-city bus services through Eyre Square is beyond a joke.

Western Distributor Road jumps to mind here but certain City Streets need to have simple alterations. For example On Street Car Parking should be removed from Eglington Street. It is a blockage point for City buses on the Western Routes. 100 % agree on Quincentenary route - should at least be trialled during the Peak Rush Hour times.

KevR

what_traffic wrote: »

Western Distributor Road jumps to mind here but certain City Streets need to have simple alterations. For example On Street Car Parking should be removed from Eglington Street. It is a blockage point for City buses on the Western Routes. 100 % agree on Quincentenary route - should at least be trialled during the Peak Rush Hour times.

It makes sense to widen the Western Distributor and add a bus lane. It would need buses running every 15 mins in each direction though.

The other thing that seriously to be looked at is car pool lanes. I'm not convinced that the existing Seamus Quirke Road bus lanes have enough bus traffic to justify being bus lanes. Why not allow cars with 3+ occupants to use these lanes? Again, it's hard to argue against a trial (maybe 6 months). Try it out, see if it improves general traffic flow while also keeping an eye on how buses are affected.

gordongekko

Am i the only one who thinks traffic is a bit lighter since the new year?

Discodog

gordongekko wrote: »

Am i the only one who thinks traffic is a bit lighter since the new year?

Definitely but I think it happens every year at this time. No idea why but even my local area is much quieter. The petrol station said that their sales drop a lot.

jjpep

New year resolutions to be more healthy (cycling or walking/jogging to work) plus winter holidays?

Complete guess tbh.

This winter has been exceptionally dry so far.

Mrs OBumble

Discodog wrote: »

Definitely but I think it happens every year at this time. No idea why but even my local area is much quieter. The petrol station said that their sales drop a lot.

Annual event. Lots of kids drop out if GMIT after Christmas every year.

Galway_Old_Man

Galway problems: traffic and accommodation.

Proposed solution: Floating habitats in the bay connected to the city by regular ferries (to start with) and maybe a few walking bridges underneath a sky-train type system as time goes on.

Each habitat would house approximately 1500 people (comfortably), they would have their own shops, green areas, schools etc. The habitats would be connected to each other, and a few hub ones would be designated as connected to the city proper. A real sense of community would emerge and I can imagine families embarking on a nice cycle around the habitat ring on a Sunday afternoon. Stopping off for ice-cream in HB-2 (for example, I don;t know what we would name each yet). Or going to their ship docked nearby for a spin of the bay or a visit to Limerick. If we start to get tight (I predict massive growth in the city once we set them up), easy just add a few more.

No worries about rising oceans, Galway will be climate change ready! Possibly as it expands we could have tidal power generation rigs coming out from them and they'd be ideal to catch the wind. Damn city could be self sufficient in power needs.

By special tax incentives we could start to attract local small/medium businesses to set up shop on certain habitats once things are set up properly. This would help alleviate the traffic gridlock in the city. And the entrepreneurial possibilities of what the citizenry will develop are obvious.

As well as all these advantages, the PR and tourism boom for the city would be immense. No longer would the growth be limited by the natural geography of County Galway. We'd also be world leaders and every country on the planet would be coming here asking our advice on how to implement such a system.

nuac

Leave your number. We'll call you.

Galway_Old_Man

The only blocking points I see are money (as always) and public support. The latter can be whipped by a movement similar to the Capital of Culture campaign. Really get the city behind it, have competitions among kids to name the habitats, have models available for the public to look at, make viral videos. The money will come from this, we'll force the government to fork over the initial amount on the back of the electorate's support and a badly needed stimulus fund. They'll make it back in no time.

I suspect the big guys over in Silicon Valley will be well impressed too and we can pitch our vision to them. Galway technology companies will love it.

GekkePrutser

talking_walnut wrote: »

It seems like it's the solution but all the research shows that building more roads just causes more people to drive and eventually increases overall traffic congestion. I'd be worried the same thing would happen here.

It's not a simple problem. The intuitive solutions seem to end up making problems worse instead of better. The only real solution is less cars on the road, but people seem to think it's their divine right to drive everywhere.

Like the M6 you mean? That added a lot of capacity and it's a godsend - I've never been stuck in traffic there even with the incessant roadworks lately. It didn't add so much traffic that it's counterproductive.

Besides, I don't think there's a lot more people in Galway needing to get on the road at peak times than there already are. Where we are here in the west it's not a very populated area, there's only so many people that would need to travel during peak hours, and most of them are already doing it by car. And if new roads causes more visitors like tourists from Dublin that'd add to the local economy as well.

And yes it is our right to drive. We pay a lot for the privilege. Though I generally love using public transport if it's viable (allows me to at least do something slightly useful during the trip) but currently it's not here. We'd need more special peak-hour commuter services that skip the city centre. Like the old HP bus (which I used to take in the old days but it doesn't cover where I live now).

I travel a lot for work to Europe (especially Eastern) and I use public transport over taxis whenever I can - it's simply much faster usually. Last time in Bucharest I left the hotel 20 minutes after my colleagues left in a taxi and got to the city center way before them by metro So yes I'm very familiar with the benefits of good public transport.

It really just needs some out of the box thinking (like special direct commuter buses) and it's so frustrating that nothing ever seems to change here. And things that are tried are set up in such an obviously bad way that they're doomed to fail, like the P&R at the airport. I don't think anyone ever expected that to work out, so far from the city.

what_traffic wrote: »

Western Distributor Road jumps to mind here but certain City Streets need to have simple alterations. For example On Street Car Parking should be removed from Eglington Street. It is a blockage point for City buses on the Western Routes. 100 % agree on Quincentenary route - should at least be trialled during the Peak Rush Hour times.

True, the same for Forster street also. It's a mess. If you need to be in the city there's plenty of good carparks.

talking_walnut

GekkePrutser wrote: »

Like the M6 you mean? That added a lot of capacity and it's a godsend - I've never been stuck in traffic there even with the incessant roadworks lately. It didn't add so much traffic that it's counterproductive.

Besides, I don't think there's a lot more people in Galway needing to get on the road at peak times than there already are. Where we are here in the west it's not a very populated area, there's only so many people that would need to travel during peak hours, and most of them are already doing it by car. And if new roads causes more visitors like tourists from Dublin that'd add to the local economy as well.

Everyone thinks they're different. We're all special snowflakes. But don't mistake personal experience with general truth. Our population is still growing so of course there's going to be more people travelling at peak times. Building more roads has been found to make people drive more as they assume it'll be quick and easy. Plus roads are sh1te. Who wants to live beside a busy road? I've never gone on holidays somewhere and come back talking about their lovely big roads.

And yes it is our right to drive. We pay a lot for the privilege.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head with this statement. People pay a lot so they think they're entitled to drive. It is a privilege. Not a right. Right now I'm paying a lot of money every year for the privilege of sitting in a metal box for hours on end for trips that should take a fraction of the time. Or risking my life trying to navigate the roads on a bike. Or getting up extra early to get the bus.

Though I generally love using public transport if it's viable (allows me to at least do something slightly useful during the trip) but currently it's not here. We'd need more special peak-hour commuter services that skip the city centre. Like the old HP bus (which I used to take in the old days but it doesn't cover where I live now).

I travel a lot for work to Europe (especially Eastern) and I use public transport over taxis whenever I can - it's simply much faster usually. Last time in Bucharest I left the hotel 20 minutes after my colleagues left in a taxi and got to the city center way before them by metro So yes I'm very familiar with the benefits of good public transport.

It really just needs some out of the box thinking (like special direct commuter buses) and it's so frustrating that nothing ever seems to change here. And things that are tried are set up in such an obviously bad way that they're doomed to fail, like the P&R at the airport. I don't think anyone ever expected that to work out, so far from the city.



True, the same for Forster street also. It's a mess. If you need to be in the city there's plenty of good carparks.

Totally with you. I think it's a good indicator that you're getting familiar with a city when you can get around easily on their public transport (which must mean I still don't know Galway very well ).

I think the problem is that people want the public transport and excellent driving conditions to coexist. People say they'd take the bus if it was a better service but complain if they try and give road space to bus corridors. Driving should be less convenient than taking a bus at peak-times in order to make people actually take the bus. Instead of building more roads it would increase the capacity of the existing roads. People seem to think it's all about moving cars around. Why aren't we focussed on moving people?

what_traffic

talking_walnut wrote: »

People seem to think it's all about moving cars around. Why aren't we focused on moving people?

This it very true. Major difficulty in changing this mindset in Ireland and especially here in Galway. We really would not have the CAR traffic problems we have if this approach of moving people was the first priority.

beardybrewer

talking_walnut wrote: »

I've never gone on holidays somewhere and come back talking about their lovely big roads.

Literally every time we return from Spain this is all we talk about.

GekkePrutser

talking_walnut wrote: »

Everyone thinks they're different. We're all special snowflakes. But don't mistake personal experience with general truth. Our population is still growing so of course there's going to be more people travelling at peak times. Building more roads has been found to make people drive more as they assume it'll be quick and easy. Plus roads are sh1te. Who wants to live beside a busy road? I've never gone on holidays somewhere and come back talking about their lovely big roads.

Nobody assumes driving in Galway is quick and easy. Everyone I talk to from other places says "Oh a lovely place but that traffic is so horrible". I always love the efficiency elsewhere. Roads are not necessarily a bad thing and houses shouldn't be located right on a major road anyway. This is just the result of a history of bad planning.

talking_walnut wrote: »

Totally with you. I think it's a good indicator that you're getting familiar with a city when you can get around easily on their public transport (which must mean I still don't know Galway very well ).

No it's just a horrible system. And very badly managed. It's happened several times that we finally boarded a heavily delayed bus in Eyre Square when a scruffy old guy in a Bus Eireann overcoat came up to kick us out because he wanted the bus for another route (probably one that was even more delayed). It hasn't happened for many years but I suppose it still fuels my distaste against everything involving public transport in Galway. Customer service is clearly not even on the list of priorities.

talking_walnut wrote: »

I think the problem is that people want the public transport and excellent driving conditions to coexist. People say they'd take the bus if it was a better service but complain if they try and give road space to bus corridors. Driving should be less convenient than taking a bus at peak-times in order to make people actually take the bus. Instead of building more roads it would increase the capacity of the existing roads. People seem to think it's all about moving cars around. Why aren't we focussed on moving people?

In contrast, I don't understand why you think these have to be mutually exclusive. Most other cities in the world can manage to have good private as well as public transport just fine. Penalising car users is not the way forward, making public transport an attractive option as well is. Cars are not going anywhere. We're going to need both for Galway to remain a relevant place in the future. As it is now it has less and less to offer with the transport situation, housing and getting worse every year.

As you say the city is growing so we'll need more roads as well as more housing. There's so much empty space in the area, I still don't understand why both the infrastructure and housing shortages are as bad as they are. Everything here just seems so resistant to change of any kind I find it very frustrating but I'm from a big city where change is a part of life.

KevR

Very well said GekkePrutser!