Lourdes (film)

branie2

Anyone here see this film about an MS wheelchair-bound pilgrim at the shrine, who gets cured?

looksee

And there is another miracle, the link has disappeared!

branie2

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1405809/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

looksee

Ah, its one and a half hours of a fillum, i thought it was going to be a documentary. Why are you suggesting it is of interest?

branie2

Because it was filmed at the actual shrine.

looksee

Why is that significant?

MrPudding

branie2 wrote: »

Anyone here see this film about an MS wheelchair-bound pilgrim at the shrine, who gets cured?

Have they made a film about the 4,999,999ish pilgrims that don't get "cured" each year?

MrP

magicbastarder

It is a fictional movie anyway.

looksee

MrPudding wrote: »

Have they made a film about the 4,999,999ish pilgrims that don't get "cured" each year?

MrP

That would assume there is one cure per year, and the rate is no-where near that.

Cabaal

Noted this is under Genre Drama, should it not be under Fantasy or Scifi? :P

recedite

I would be very wary about going to Lourdes.
The gods have tried to destroy it more than once.

Kidchameleon

OP you would get more responses in the Christianity forum

Hotblack Desiato

Don't MS sufferers often experience their condition temporarily improving or worsening?

"Cure" is a very strong word to be using for what is in all likelihood a temporary improvement in their condition and completely unconnected (apart from the power of auto-suggestion) to any visit to any shrine.

Get back to me when you have a substantiated story of an amputee being cured

learn_more

I've always found it stunning that God is credited with curing illnesses that he purportedly created in the first place.

"He that Givith can taketh away". Is that it ?

Balf

Whatever about Lourdes, there does seem to be evidence that religious practice is good for health.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16781528

Explore (NY). 2005 May;1(3):186-91.
Does religious activity improve health outcomes? A critical review of the recent literature.

"DATA SYNTHESIS:
Religious intervention such as intercessory prayer may improve success rates of in vitro fertilization, decrease length of hospital stay and duration of fever in septic patients, increase immune function, improve rheumatoid arthritis, and reduce anxiety. Frequent attendance at religious services likely improves health behaviors. Moreover, prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease.

CONCLUSIONS:
Religious activity may improve health outcomes."

There's a few surveys out there saying much the same thing. Put simply, its an effective way of promoting a positive mental attitude.

Had to giggle at this one.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19077024

Hospitalised patients who lack faith and whose prayers involve desperate pleas for help are likely to need additional support from competent nursing and chaplaincy staff.

robindch

Balf wrote: »

Whatever about Lourdes, there does seem to be evidence that religious practice is good for health.

From the summary, we learn that the reviewers included data from "five randomized controlled trials, four clinical trials, and seven faith-based partnerships". Looking at the authors, we find that two of them, Mulligan and Aleye, worked together at the same place and published multiple papers on similar topics. More interestingly, the mission statement of one of Mulligan's employers, St Bernard's Healthcare, is to "to provide Christ-like healing" which suggests the possibility of bias upon the part of the authors in selection and consideration of the evidence.

What's more interesting still is that they specifically mention that "prayer may decrease adverse outcomes in patients with cardiac disease" at a time when, so far as I recall, it was known that there was a large study being carried out into the benefits (or otherwise) of intercessory prayer.

Unfortunately, there were no benefits. Since the study published less than a year later found that intercessory prayer did not influence the recovery rates of people recovering from cardiac surgery. Unless you told the patient that they were being prayed for, in which case, the chances of complications increased significantly.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

recedite

robindch wrote: »

intercessory prayer did not influence the recovery rates of people recovering from cardiac surgery. Unless you told the patient that they were being prayed for, in which case, the chances of complications increased significantly.

That is interesting, a sort of reverse placebo effect maybe?
"Oh $hit, things must be bad if they are praying for me"

Zubeneschamali

I had an aunt who was a very determined Catholic, 3rd order of St. Francis Parachute division or something, who visited Lourdes and was absolutely appalled to see the lines of chronically ill or handicapped people being wheeled in and a cure attempted. She was completely opposed to Lourdes-mania after her trip.

Balf

Is it fair to say that there's a strong political element to any investigations in this space.

As it stands, there seems to be recent evidence that reciting "Allah" relieves pain (presumably if you believe in the guy), but placebos don't.

I also find it plausible that honest religious practice helps people. Of course, the problem is that no-one can actually consciously decide to take up a religion on foot of a cost benefit analysis.

Still, interesting to see where evidence suggests mental states influence physical outcomes. There seems to be quite a lot of it.

Mark Hamill

Balf wrote: »

Is it fair to say that there's a strong political element to any investigations in this space.

As it stands, there seems to be recent evidence that reciting "Allah" relieves pain (presumably if you believe in the guy),

Note that in that study that it was Hazrate Zahra's praises that was recited to combat post coronary bypass graft surgery pain in the chest. That praise has "Allah" recited 100 times, so basically you have a situation were the intervention group (40 Iranians) would spend a few minutes saying Allah 100 times before they did anything else to combat the pain. Saying Allah 100 times would take the patients mind off of the pain and give it time to subside. The control simply took normal pain interventions from the hospital, so there is no evidence to say that having someone recite anything a few minutes long to combat the same pain wouldn't be equally as effective.

ScumLord

Balf wrote: »

Is it fair to say that there's a strong political element to any investigations in this space.

As it stands, there seems to be recent evidence that reciting "Allah" relieves pain (presumably if you believe in the guy), but placebos don't.

I also find it plausible that honest religious practice helps people. Of course, the problem is that no-one can actually consciously decide to take up a religion on foot of a cost benefit analysis.

Taking your mind off the pain helps. Even talking to someone will help.

They've also found that cursing helps relieve pain.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-we-swear/

So "****" and "allah" seem completely interchangeable and have the same effect.

recedite

ScumLord wrote: »

So "****" and "allah" seem completely interchangeable and have the same effect.

I suggest you go into a Mosque and see how that works out in practice :pac:
I will expect you to report back your findings here.

Balf

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The control simply took normal pain interventions from the hospital, so there is no evidence to say that having someone recite anything a few minutes long to combat the same pain wouldn't be equally as effective.

That's true. What I'd suggest is the question we'd really be asking is whether reciting a word that doesn't particularly resonate or have meaning for someone (like "tub of lard" to anyone without a lard phobia or fetish) would have the same effect as a word which an individual might associate with something that means a lot to them (like a person with an honest faith reciting a religious ritual they believe has some significance).

Musketeer4

I remember a similar film called Journey to Knock. David Thewlis was the guy playing the main character and John Hurt was in it too. They had MS or muscular dystrophy or something and decided to go to knock. The two key parts of it that I remember was them getting desperately sea sick on the ferry and rolling around on the floor of the toilets covered in puke. Then they were in the pub trying to pull women and concealing their disability until it came time to leave the pub with the girl, at which time they switched from the bar stool into the wheel chair, much to the surprise of the girls. Gas aul film.

Mark Hamill

Balf wrote: »

That's true. What I'd suggest is the question we'd really be asking is whether reciting a word that doesn't particularly resonate or have meaning for someone (like "tub of lard" to anyone without a lard phobia or fetish) would have the same effect as a word which an individual might associate with something that means a lot to them (like a person with an honest faith reciting a religious ritual they believe has some significance).

Scumlord already mention studies that show cursing to have a pain-reductive effect. So we can safely say that reciting anything at all with any meaning would help someone with pain control. Probably just reciting your kids names, if you had kids, would help too. Because all you are doing is distracting yourself and the more distraction inherent in the recital the better. This has nothing inherently to do with religion being good for your health.