looks like the guards are going back into LRA, leaves the ASTI as last man standing

judeboy101

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-reach-pay-deal-with-department-2995355-Sep2016/

ethical

........and those (of us) that signed up to Lansdowne Rd are better off by a whopping €5:00 per week!

man_no_plan

They only got that because of the ASTI I suppose.

judeboy101

man_no_plan wrote: »

They only got that because of the ASTI I suppose.

Someone needs to protect our TD's from 15 year olds with megaphones !!

kala85

Read the comments on the article before you judge. Waiting until I hear from the GRA on it.

"There has been no deal agreed between the GRA and the Dept of Justice to accept the Lansdowne Rd Deal, or on any part of it. The Dept issued a position paper to the GRA negotiating team outlining what they say they are prepared to offer, which the GRA must bring it to their CEC. There absolutely is no truth to the story that any deal was agreed to. This was deliberately fed to the Independent and RTE to spread this disinformation to undermine the GRA members ballot on industrial action, which hasn’t even been finalised yet (closing date tomorrow). Deliberate lies were reported by the aforementioned media outlets, at the behest of the Dept no doubt – as is their wont. Just bad reporting by The Journal to go with the same lies."

James izzard Mason

Last man??? I don't think so!

Try BTEI staff in the ETB's. They don't even have crutches!

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

They only got that because of the ASTI I suppose.

Why what's the TUI's leverage?

evolving_doors

Anyhow, news says the deal is joining Lansdowne Road PLUS extra productivity.

Listening to news today RTE, I think it was Ingrid Miley who said the TUI got concessions without any extra productivity! As if LR is just a minor document to be signed

griffzinho

Keep fighting ASTI. Nearly a decade of never ending dispute. Hurting teachers, students, parents and much needed reform.
I'm so sad to be a member of the ASTI at the moment.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-orourke/asti-is-marching-its-members-towards-their-own-destruction-35076357.html

coolhandluke

Govt spinners out in force today, there is not a hope the gardai will accept what is on offer and you can take that to the bank.

van_beano

griffzinho wrote: »

Keep fighting ASTI. Nearly a decade of never ending dispute. Hurting teachers, students, parents and much needed reform.
I'm so sad to be a member of the ASTI at the moment.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-orourke/asti-is-marching-its-members-towards-their-own-destruction-35076357.html

Just wondering, is it a mandatory requirement to be a member of ASTI? It's not mandatory to be part of the GRA.

evolving_doors

griffzinho wrote: »

Keep fighting ASTI. Nearly a decade of never ending dispute. Hurting teachers, students, parents and much needed reform.
I'm so sad to be a member of the ASTI at the moment.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/colm-orourke/asti-is-marching-its-members-towards-their-own-destruction-35076357.html

Oh dear god not him again.
Please find out why Colm left ASTI before looking at this guy as a font of knowledge.
The ASTI is made up of its members, the members voted.
Did we see the ASTI objecting/striking over the introduction of project maths?

ASTI jumped into CP.. Colm still not happy.
ASTI jumped into Hr.. Colm still not happy.
Will Colm be happy if/when ASTI jumps into LR.... you won't hear from him again.

Stick to the property developing Colm.

griffzinho

I think his argument is very well reasoned. ASTI is consistently fighting any proposed changes. Always fighting. Always in dispute. Mind you I am only a member for 11 years. Before that I do not have any information. Every time I voted the mainstream vote went against my position. Maybe I am not suited to this union I have often asked myself that question, particularly as I know for a fact that many times people voted without even knowing the details of what was involved. There is certainly a tendency towards conflict.

The militant CEC guides a lot of sheep. Let us just keep on striking about everything, forever. More and more disputes. I even see the characters on here, including the moderator. Fight, fight, fight. Teachers , students, parents all lose out. No change. No moving with the times. All change is bad.

I just can't believe it really.

Inspector Coptoor

griffzinho wrote: »

I think his argument is very well reasoned. ASTI is consistently fighting any proposed changes. Always fighting. Always in dispute. Mind you I am only a member for 11 years. Before that I do not have any information. Every time I voted the mainstream vote went against my position. Maybe I am not suited to this union I have often asked myself that question, particularly as I know for a fact that many times people voted without even knowing the details of what was involved. There is certainly a tendency towards conflict.

The militant CEC guides a lot of sheep. Let us just keep on striking about everything, forever. More and more disputes. I even see the characters on here, including the moderator. Fight, fight, fight. Teachers , students, parents all lose out. No change. No moving with the times. All change is bad.

I just can't believe it really.

Change is not alway bad.

Change which involves more work for less pay is bad.
Full stop.

Yourself and O Rourke would want to catch yourselves on.

The ASTI is a union concerned with the plight of its members.
Not parents or students.
End of.

It's not about protesting and striking for no reason, it's about getting a fair deal and not being shat on by successive governments.

griffzinho

Inspector Coptoor.

If you consider yourself shat on then you are definitely in the wrong profession.

For me.. I go to work, do my classes, didn't mind Croke Park hours if they are allocated sensibly (and more flexibility), like the new Junior Cert curriculum much more than the old, and are more than happy with remuneration that I consider fair in the context of our national accounts. I do wish that all teachers are on equal pay and on all full hours CID's, but as for the rest of the consistent bickering that the ASTI have involved themselves in this last decade, it's not for me. Everything is fought against tooth and nail.

I love my job, I'm fairly paid, and my workload is definitely reasonable in relation to my pay. That I can assure you of.

The bulk of ASTI (you included) are not grounded in reality and that is my opinion.
As for what position the ASTI occupies in the mind of the public I can just imagine.

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

I think his argument is very well reasoned. ASTI is consistently fighting any proposed changes. Always fighting. Always in dispute. Mind you I am only a member for 11 years. Before that I do not have any information. Every time I voted the mainstream vote went against my position. Maybe I am not suited to this union I have often asked myself that question, particularly as I know for a fact that many times people voted without even knowing the details of what was involved. There is certainly a tendency towards conflict.

The militant CEC guides a lot of sheep. Let us just keep on striking about everything, forever. More and more disputes. I even see the characters on here, including the moderator. Fight, fight, fight. Teachers , students, parents all lose out. No change. No moving with the times. All change is bad.

I just can't believe it really.

You can't believe that people are actually prepared to fight for what they believe is right? Wow! So you think teachers should give in, give in,give in? Agree, agree, agree?

Agree to unequal pay scales among collegues doing the same work?

Agree to constant "agreements" which erode our working conditions?

Agree to being bound by Fempi though the emergency is over?

Agree to a transition from a tried and tested exam structure to one which dumbs down standards and which has been tried and thrown out in many other jurisdictions.

Agree to continue extra unpaid administration hours which are unproductive and soul destroying.

Agree to becoming supervisors, bouncers, subs for a pittance.

Agree to agreements which the other party consistently breaches to suit themselves.

I really could go on but you would probably still think all this is some kind of a rant,not the reality of the seriously weakened profession we work in.But then I suppose you think a seriously weakened profession is "change" and "moving with the times" and shur we must do that, we're neanderthals if we don't! We, the lowly teachers,not people like our friend Colm who laughs all the way to the bank.

You're not only in the wrong union. You shouldn't be in a union with that attitude.

evolving_doors

griffzinho wrote: »

I think his argument is very well reasoned. ASTI is consistently fighting any proposed changes. Always fighting. Always in dispute. Mind you I am only a member for 11 years. Before that I do not have any information. Every time I voted the mainstream vote went against my position. Maybe I am not suited to this union I have often asked myself that question, particularly as I know for a fact that many times people voted without even knowing the details of what was involved. There is certainly a tendency towards conflict.

The militant CEC guides a lot of sheep. Let us just keep on striking about everything, forever. More and more disputes. I even see the characters on here, including the moderator. Fight, fight, fight. Teachers , students, parents all lose out. No change. No moving with the times. All change is bad.

I just can't believe it really.

Did the ASTI strike over project maths?
If you count 'moving with the times' as accepting worsening working conditions and pay cuts then I can see why you're arguing that protesting is pointless.

Do you genuinely think Croke Park hours were 'productive'.
Are those S&S classes worth the giving up of planning time.... but shur I suppose it's ok to do them at home in our own time.
Look around your staff room at lunch time. Are all the staff there 'having lunch'?
I counted one day in the last 2 weeks when I sat and chatted during lunch (and ate my lunch in my own time). Is this normal?

I think the fact that you are asking questions and challenging people is healthy to have within a union though! And hey maybe I am wrong in wanting to protest so it's good to challenge. Better than folk who dont really know what a vote is about and sell themselves out for a couple of extra quid and the promise of 'looking into things' in the future.

Inspector Coptoor

griffzinho wrote: »

Inspector Coptoor.

If you consider yourself shat on then you are definitely in the wrong profession.

For me.. I go to work, do my classes, didn't mind Croke Park hours if they are allocated sensibly (and more flexibility), like the new Junior Cert curriculum much more than the old, and are more than happy with remuneration that I consider fair in the context of our national accounts. I do wish that all teachers are on equal pay and on all full hours CID's, but as for the rest of the consistent bickering that the ASTI have involved themselves in this last decade, it's not for me. Everything is fought against tooth and nail.

I love my job, I'm fairly paid, and my workload is definitely reasonable in relation to my pay. That I can assure you of.

The bulk of ASTI (you included) are not grounded in reality and that is my opinion.
As for what position the ASTI occupies in the mind of the public I can just imagine.

I am in the correct profession.
I love my job and give it everything I have and have done for the last 11 years.

I think it's incredibly unfair that a teacher who started after 2011 starts on €30k a year when I started on €38k

I reject the idea of the Croke park hours - 33 hours of what is essentially detention for teachers that takes away from my co-curricular work with students.

I reject the idea of working 43 hours of S&S at a net gain of €8 per week.

My time is worth more than that.

Again, you need to have a good long look at yourself, how you view these arguments and how you could ever agree with Colm O Rourke on an issue like this.

griffzinho

acequion wrote: »

You can't believe that people are actually prepared to fight for what they believe is right? Wow! So you think teachers should give in, give in,give in? Agree, agree, agree?

Agree to unequal pay scales among collegues doing the same work?

Agree to constant "agreements" which erode our working conditions?

Agree to being bound by Fempi though the emergency is over?

Agree to a transition from a tried and tested exam structure to one which dumbs down standards and which has been tried and thrown out in many other jurisdictions.

Agree to continue extra unpaid administration hours which are unproductive and soul destroying.

Agree to becoming supervisors, bouncers, subs for a pittance.

Agree to agreements which the other party consistently breaches to suit themselves.

I really could go on but you would probably still think all this is some kind of a rant,not the reality of the seriously weakened profession we work in.But then I suppose you think a seriously weakened profession is "change" and "moving with the times" and shur we must do that, we're neanderthals if we don't! We, the lowly teachers,not people like our friend Colm who laughs all the way to the bank.

You're not only in the wrong union. You shouldn't be in a union with that attitude.

As already mentioned I think pay inequality is wrong. Fempi is too but we should be in Lra like nearly every other union.As for the rest I think it is the rant of a typical entitled Asti member. As for my union membership perhaps I am in the wrong union as the other two teaching unions seem more aligned with my thinking. Certainly Tui, but can I switch??! No. We have been in dispute for so long I never have had the opportunity. Keep on fighting.

evolving_doors

I think we'll have to wait and see what extra productivity they are looking for off the Gardai. It'll probably be the same for the bus drivers.
To my mind though LR IS the extra productivity.

political analyst

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I am in the correct profession.
I love my job and give it everything I have and have done for the last 11 years.

I think it's incredibly unfair that a teacher who started after 2011 starts on €30k a year when I started on €38k

I reject the idea of the Croke park hours - 33 hours of what is essentially detention for teachers that takes away from my co-curricular work with students.

I reject the idea of working 43 hours of S&S at a net gain of €8 per week.

My time is worth more than that.

Again, you need to have a good long look at yourself, how you view these arguments and how you could ever agree with Colm O Rourke on an issue like this.

Surely, doing S&S can't be as bad as being stuck in pointless meetings. After all, secondary teachers managed OK with S&S before 2000.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Surely, doing S&S can't be as bad as being stuck in pointless meetings. After all, secondary teachers managed OK with S&S before 2000.

I think you're asking Surley there to chose between the rack or the iron maiden.

judeboy101

political analyst wrote: »

Surely, doing S&S can't be as bad as being stuck in pointless meetings. After all, secondary teachers managed OK with S&S before 2000.

S&S was a choice back then. When you have to do it forever it loses its appeal. When I started older staff didn't do it (no one wants to see a 60year old woman standing in the freezing cold). Now you can look forward to 40yrs of standing in a corridor or on a pitch watching kids play while arthritis slowly eats away your joints.

implausible

I'm not getting into the rest of it, but just want to point out that, while it may seem like v little per week, s/s works out at E37 an hour (or it will, next Sept), close enough what we were getting paid for it a few years ago and definitely more than what we were paid before 2001.

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

As already mentioned I think pay inequality is wrong. Fempi is too but we should be in Lra like nearly every other union.As for the rest I think it is the rant of a typical entitled Asti member. As for my union membership perhaps I am in the wrong union as the other two teaching unions seem more aligned with my thinking. Certainly Tui, but can I switch??! No. We have been in dispute for so long I never have had the opportunity. Keep on fighting.

The bit in bold is what we're up against! The total ignorance of those who condemn the people who fight for rights.

And the worst of it is that the Government don't really need to do anything. We'll be sold out, as always, by our own.

acequion

implausible wrote: »

I'm not getting into the rest of it, but just want to point out that, while it may seem like v little per week, s/s works out at E37 an hour (or it will, next Sept), close enough what we were getting paid for it a few years ago and definitely more than what we were paid before 2001.

Fair enough but firstly nobody should be forced into it and forced to continue it. Secondly when you say close enough to a few years ago,don't forget that people have to do substantially more of it than a few years ago.

Notorious

Colm O'Rourke wrote:

So what is happening now is that good teachers will opt for ETB schools if there is a choice of employment. Why should they accept lower pay to work in a voluntary school?

Has Colm been living under a rock?

Griffzinho wrote:

I'm fairly paid

Well that's the problem. So many teachers are not. The deal the TUI accepted is not good enough. Teachers took a hit when the times were tough, and now we can't even secure pay parity. Like the bus & Luas drivers, we should be pushing for a pay rise.

griffzinho

acequion wrote: »

The bit in bold is what we're up against! The total ignorance of those who condemn the people who fight for rights.

And the worst of it is that the Government don't really need to do anything. We'll be sold out, as always, by our own.

This post sums it up really. So entrenched and unable to see the bigger picture. When the likes of Kieran Mulvey are incredulous at the actions of the Asti you got to ask who is ignorant? The Asti are nearly 10 years fighting. Sometimes this is not the way forward. The Tui have negotiated benefits for younger teachers which have impressed me. Progress on casualisation plus moves towards pay parity. What have Asti done except act like over entitled sulkers. Fighting against practically everything. We are soon going to be on our own outside Lra. The only public sector union outside. Surely, when you stand back and look, you can see the bigger picture? Surely?

griffzinho

Notorious wrote: »

Has Colm been living under a rock?



Well that's the problem. So many teachers are not. The deal the TUI accepted is not good enough. Teachers took a hit when the times were tough, and now we can't even secure pay parity. Like the bus & Luas drivers, we should be pushing for a pay rise.

Moves towards pay parity for new teachers by Tui are a start. Sulking outside Lra is not. A pay rise? Unlike Luas we are government employees. Our national accounts are still in deficit. Moderate pay restoration is the only practical way forward. Simple economics dictates this or do you want to step back to the Fianna Fail sailing straight at the iceberg scenario of the early/mid 2000's?

griffzinho

At present, all Asti have achieved for it's members is wrongly put them facing Fempi. Fempi is wrong, but it exists. The Asti have as it stands walked it's younger members into a situation of 4 year Cids and zero pay restoration.

Notorious

griffzinho wrote: »

Moves towards pay parity for new teachers by Tui are a start.

You're right, it is a start. But the least we as professionals should expect is fair and equal pay for every employee. If we accept minor differences now, it'll be more difficult in the future to restore equality (with allowances, for example).

I'm not going to engage in the economics debate with you, but I will say that nearly 40% of employees in Ireland have seen recent pay rises. The economy is improving, and with that there should be room to negotiate rises. The TUI have already stated that this will be their next "battle".