looks like the guards are going back into LRA, leaves the ASTI as last man standing

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

This post sums it up really. So entrenched and unable to see the bigger picture. When the likes of Kieran Mulvey are incredulous at the actions of the Asti you got to ask who is ignorant? The Asti are nearly 10 years fighting. Sometimes this is not the way forward. The Tui have negotiated benefits for younger teachers which have impressed me. Progress on casualisation plus moves towards pay parity. What have Asti done except act like over entitled sulkers. Fighting against practically everything. We are soon going to be on our own outside Lra. The only public sector union outside. Surely, when you stand back and look, you can see the bigger picture? Surely?

You have to be a wind up! Or someone on the Government side! You cannot be a real teacher on the ground all these years or an ASTI member!

Progress on casualisation! What progress? 30% of Irish teachers were casualised two years ago and guess what it's still 30% and creeping upwards while the EU average is 15%

Kieran Mulvey! Don't make me laugh.A former ASTI general secretary in the cosy old days,impressed the Government and got himself promoted to a plum job for them. Like your friend Colm, earns multiples of what a teacher does. And these are the type of people you cite!

And you talk of public finances. The same public finances where our PM is paid more than world leaders in much larger countries. Meanwhile many, many teachers have had to sign up for income support just to make ends meet.

And of course the ASTI is just an angry bull fighting for the sake of it. Never mind that since 2009, successive administrations have cut pay, introduced a pension levy,introduced the extra unpaid hours, forced teachers into more S&S,cut the pay of new entrants, slashed sick pay,cut allowances, introduced snow days, made huge changes to junior cycle, increased the PTR,one of the highest in the OECDetc etc etc and despite promising a "last ask"continue to target teachers and education now that the recession is over.

But I suppose you think all those realities are just a rant too!

joebloggs32

Just something I was wondering about.
Will ASTI staff have their timetables reduced to 21h 20m next year as part of the new JC?
I dont want to go down the road of the whole jc debate, just curious about this as I work in a community school with both unions.

Benicetomonty

Guards are ways away from signing up to Lansdowne listening to the news. No mention of pay equality from the 'deal' and an extra 15 hours work on top of it! Going to a delegation on Wednesday, may or may not go to ballot thereafter.

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

Acequion.

Perhaps in the real world the successive governments you talk about are not our enemy, as you seem to think. Our country nearly went under. Both public and private sector had to pay. If your only argument on national finances is a reference to the Taoiseachs salary then I cannot entertain you. Such populous drivel. Most of those reforms were necessary cost cutting measures. These successive Governments had their hand forced by circumstances. In fact, the generous pay bargaining of the early 2000's from which we benefited significantly played a major role in over inflating our economy. The Government in this era was too benevolent if anything. As for post 2009 and necessary cuts, you really need to look at historical budget figures for those years. Peaked at well over €20 Billion plus deficit.

I suppose you are one of those who resent bailing out the banks too? Let them fail?
Read a little on money creation if you are.

Can you honestly say we have a persecuted profession? Seriously? For real?? as you would state yourself.
Most teachers on full hours certainly aren't. Our job is not particularly difficult. We work hard, but enjoy many benefits. Most of my friends/family would think that our 'benefits' are extremely generous. In fact I always seem to be the target of a little jesting at my holidays and fairly decent working hours.

As for O'Rourke and Mulvey you seem to resent their success., Are they not entitled to progress themselves? I respect Mulvey and his work with the LRC/WRC. I think he is good at his job. Should we all be earning an equal wage? I certainly don't think so.

As for your last question. Yes I do think they are a rant. A rant of someone who does not look at the bigger picture. Someone who prepared to roll with it in the good times, but not face harsh realities in the time of crisis.

The time has come for the restoration of some pay and a refinement of conditions. I firmly support the plight of young teachers, but as for staying outside the LRA like a bunch of sulking entitled children, I am totally not in favour.

As for you asking me 'Am i for real'. The answer is a firm yes. I am as real as nearly every other public sector worker (who all suffered) and are now part of the LRA. Time to get back to the table ASTI. Time to get real.

Whatever you are you are a 100% Government sympathiser, no question about that, complete with right wing rhetoric and arrogance. People like you have no business at all in a trade union, any trade union.

It really is bad enough to have to endure hostility from a very conservative, pro establishment and mainly sheepish Irish public who aren't always in full possession of the facts. But to receive such ill will from within our own ranks completely beggars belief. Which is why I find it hard to believe that you are a bone fide teacher and union member.

In any case,feel free to reply with more right wing rhetoric, I'm done wasting my time talking to the likes of you.

evolving_doors

Ok folks enough of the tit-for-tat.

Back on topic.

Mod.

evolving_doors

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Guards are ways away from signing up to Lansdowne listening to the news. No mention of pay equality from the 'deal' and an extra 15 hours work on top of it! Going to a delegation on Wednesday, may or may not go to ballot thereafter.

Is that 15 hours on top of the croke park hours?

deiseindublin

I don't think there's a fear of the guards accepting the deal but I presume this "Guards inside LRA" media spin is government led to coincide with ASTI casting their ballots. I really hope this and the TUI pittance deal won't be enough to break the resolve of the majority.

Benicetomonty

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Is that 15 hours on top of the croke park hours?

Yes, AFAIK. Can be completed in 15min slots, whatever that means.

ethical

Our friend Colm has got it in for the ASTI as they refused to support his stance re: a gaa tour he was alledgely going to go on while playing gaelic many years ago.Of course he dosent need s & s money and the like as the national broadcaster supplements his income quite nicely.His dipping into property developing was not successful as his colleague Joe mentioned to him on the national airwaves one day last year!

evolving_doors

Well the ballot for the Gardai is in... 95% were in favour of strike action.
Could it be possible to turn this around when they consider the weekend's proposals?

deiseindublin

87% TUI turned around, too depressing to guess on the Gardai but I'd say they're more one minded than we were.

amacca

This is not TUI bashing but I cannot understand their turnaround in the context of the behaviour of who they were bargaining with.

An agreement was made with Govt...Teachers honoured it, Govt did not honour it

Then Govt made getting what was already due under the previous agreement conditional on signing up to a new agreement (which gave little details of what new conditions would be imposed in future among other issues)

Have I got that wrong?

deiseindublin

No amacca, that pretty much sums it up.

joe swanson

From what i hear, not a hope the guards will accept the proposals. No deal was ever made but is govt spin.

Stand firm,

Benicetomonty

Gardai reject Dept's proposals. Good!

Ingrid Miley
‏@ingridmileyRTE
3 sources say #GRA mtg has rejected Dept of Justice pay proposals- question now is what they do re mandate for industrial action

gaiscioch

If ever a thread needed to be renamed this is it.

Once again - without exception - all members of the pseudo-profession of journalism covering this story leave ethics at the door and allow themselves it to be conduits for government press releases and spin dressed up as "news". "Free press" indeed. Shameful stuff.

Yours,

Still waiting for that front-page apology to that front-page lead Irish Times story a year or so ago which falsely claimed most ASTI members did not strike.

PS: A sincere well done to members of An Garda.

coillsaille

Well said. It's so infuriating how we don't have any professional, objective and unbiased media coverage in this country. Just this morning I was reading about the new way the guards will work the extra hours under the new arrangement. Only for boards and comment sections on some media websites I would have read it as the guards have signed up without quibble.

Frankly frank

griffzinho wrote: »

Inspector Coptoor.

If you consider yourself shat on then you are definitely in the wrong profession.

For me.. I go to work, do my classes, didn't mind Croke Park hours if they are allocated sensibly (and more flexibility), like the new Junior Cert curriculum much more than the old, and are more than happy with remuneration that I consider fair in the context of our national accounts. I do wish that all teachers are on equal pay and on all full hours CID's, but as for the rest of the consistent bickering that the ASTI have involved themselves in this last decade, it's not for me. Everything is fought against tooth and nail.

I love my job, I'm fairly paid, and my workload is definitely reasonable in relation to my pay. That I can assure you of.

The bulk of ASTI (you included) are not grounded in reality and that is my opinion.
As for what position the ASTI occupies in the mind of the public I can just imagine.

Unfortunately while you make some other valid points this is the issue:
I am glad that you are fairly paid and feeling comfortable.
Reality check - others are not and are ready to fight just to have those same rights!
Thanks so much for your support "Jack".

Mardy Bum

Frankly frank wrote: »

griffzinho wrote: »

Inspector Coptoor.

If you consider yourself shat on then you are definitely in the wrong profession.

For me.. I go to work, do my classes, didn't mind Croke Park hours if they are allocated sensibly (and more flexibility), like the new Junior Cert curriculum much more than the old, and are more than happy with remuneration that I consider fair in the context of our national accounts. I do wish that all teachers are on equal pay and on all full hours CID's, but as for the rest of the consistent bickering that the ASTI have involved themselves in this last decade, it's not for me. Everything is fought against tooth and nail.

I love my job, I'm fairly paid, and my workload is definitely reasonable in relation to my pay. That I can assure you of.

The bulk of ASTI (you included) are not grounded in reality and that is my opinion.
As for what position the ASTI occupies in the mind of the public I can just imagine.

Unfortunately while you make some other valid points this is the issue:
I am glad that you are fairly paid and feeling comfortable.
Reality check - others are not and are ready to fight just to have those same rights!
Thanks so much for your support "Jack".

If the OP was on half hours and post 2011 pay they would be cribbing. If the OP was willing to cut his salary to post 2011 levels I would take him seriously as he seems worried about national debt but I'll go out on a limb and guess he didn't tell the department to do this.

acequion

coillsaille wrote: »

Well said. It's so infuriating how we don't have any professional, objective and unbiased media coverage in this country. Just this morning I was reading about the new way the guards will work the extra hours under the new arrangement. Only for boards and comment sections on some media websites I would have read it as the guards have signed up without quibble.

Completely agree. It is actually quite shocking that in a democracy citizens don't have access to different political leanings in the media as they do in other countries. Here it is always the right wing establishment line that is being trotted out like a well oiled propaganda machine. And it's amazing how many people fall for the spin. It's very unhealthy and I think we have a duty to teach our students how to read between the lines and think for themselves.

The propaganda machine was well set in motion last weekend with Colm O Rourke's anti ASTI rant. Will we read the other side next Sunday? Very much doubt it.

And yes this thread should be renamed as thankfully the ASTI are not the last man standing. I'm delighted that the Gardai are sticking to their guns.Proper order as they have a tough job too and deserve proper pay and conditions.

Darwin

Delighted to hear the guards have the backbone to tell them where to shove the LRA. I could not agree more with the sentiments on this thread regarding press and media coverage of union matters. RTE call themselves a public service broadcaster, more like anti-public service broadcaster. They have been consistently reporting and emphasising what the guards are set to lose by rejecting LRA, without any attempt to provide a balanced view of matters. To think we pay a license fee to read and watch the drivel they pass as news.

coillsaille

Darwin wrote: »

Delighted to hear the guards have the backbone to tell them where to shove the LRA. I could not agree more with the sentiments on this thread regarding press and media coverage of union matters. RTE call themselves a public service broadcaster, more like anti-public service broadcaster. They have been consistently reporting and emphasising what the guards are set to lose by rejecting LRA, without any attempt to provide a balanced view of matters. To think we pay a license fee to read and watch the drivel they pass as news.

They took the exact same approach when reporting the ASTI's ballot to stop the Croke Park hours. Every media outlet, including our national broadcaster and our main broadsheet, gave detailed coverage to what we would lose but there wasn't a mention of why we might be willing to lose it.

evolving_doors

It should be interesting now.
It's obvious the govt are desperate as they tried to stave off a strike from the guards the exact weekend before the ballot results came through.
It would have been sweet to get them into LR and have the much maligned 'greedy teachers' left out in the cold.
Now it could get a bit more interesting as folk will think twice about rushing to judge the ASTI since the Gardaí are taking a stand.
I hear very little pillory towards the Gardai in the media.

Is it just 2 unions left outside LR?

Although technically I don't think the GRA are a union are they?

coillsaille

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Although technically I don't think the GRA are a union are they?

I think it was part of this deal (which is now dead) that they be given some sort of trade union status.
But I read that in the media so don't quote me on it....

griffzinho

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If the OP was on half hours and post 2011 pay they would be cribbing. If the OP was willing to cut his salary to post 2011 levels I would take him seriously as he seems worried about national debt but I'll go out on a limb and guess he didn't tell the department to do this.

Like everyone I had my time on part hours. If you did read my posts, I feel strongly on the issue of pay parity and full hours. I did mention this. I do feel that progress on this can be best achieved through working within the LRA framework and I have complemented the TUI on making some progress on this issue. As for ASTI, as it stands there is no progress on these issues. That is my core point. In fact it is regression due to Fempi. 4 year CIDs for examples. Before anyone accuses I am not a supporter of Fempi (no one is and have made my feeling on this known to many TD's, Ministers, etc.

Anyway, as your point is very simple minded and provocative, i don't wish to engage in any conversation with you on this. My point is made.

griffzinho

Frankly frank wrote: »

Unfortunately while you make some other valid points this is the issue:
I am glad that you are fairly paid and feeling comfortable.
Reality check - others are not and are ready to fight just to have those same rights!
Thanks so much for your support "Jack".

Again, please read my posts and see that I am firmly behind the plight of younger teachers. I made that abundantly clear. I think pay parity can be achieved at a moderate pace and believe the TUI deal is a good starting point. As it stands, the ASTI have put their younger members at a disadvantage in my opinion. Maybe that will change, maybe it won't, but there comes a point when a constant adversarial approach is not the way to progress.

griffzinho

I'm not going to hijack this thread with my opinions or engage anymore with anyone one on one bickering. It seems to be populated with people with a single mind as regards these issues. The government are constantly considered as 'some enemy'. There is a lot of resentment towards Government, I feel the guards and teachers are wrong to demand full pay restoration in one swoop. The guards want to go back to 2008 levels apparently. I just don't think our country has the capacity financially to do this as quickly as some would like. Any destabilisation of our recovery puts us all in jeopardy.

Finally, I believe the ASTI voted for the deals that reduced prospective new members pay. I did not. I felt it was totally unfair from the get go and that is where my initial contempt for the ASTI began. I believed it should have been across the board pay cuts, but alas it wasn't. Many voted to protect their incomes at the expense of new recruits.

deiseindublin

griffzinho wrote: »

I'm not going to hijack this thread with my opinions ...

Great update.

griffzinho

deiseindublin wrote: »

Great update.

No problem Contrarian opinions on this board are not welcome obviously.

coillsaille

griffzinho wrote: »

.
I believe the ASTI voted for the deals that reduced prospective new members pay.

The ASTI did not vote to cut new entrants' pay. That was done in the Dail. The ASTI couldn't do much about it as they were bound by the agreement. The same sort of agreement you think they should sign up to now.