looks like the guards are going back into LRA, leaves the ASTI as last man standing

deiseindublin

Sometimes you're just banging your head off a brick wall coillsaille, give up I'd say.

km79

Change thread title

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

Finally, I believe the ASTI voted for the deals that reduced prospective new members pay. I did not. .

Please explain this.

coillsaille

km79 wrote: »

Change thread title

Maybe they should. On the other hand the thread title tells it's own story in that it was based on what the national media reported.

acequion

I hadn't actually turned to page 5 when I read the above by griffzinho but I would still like that poster to please explain how he /she comes to that conclusion.

Because this is an accusation that is being thrown around at teachers lately. As if any teacher would willingly vote yes to a ballot which went something like:

"Do you agree to cut the pay of new entrants to save that of those already in the profession?"

And Coillsaille is right.Neither union could do anything at all about this Dail decision because they were bound by the terms of the CPA. A good enough reason to not want to allow history to repeat itself.

griffzinho

For once and for all.

The pay of serving teachers pre 2010 was protected by the signing of the Croke Park Agreement.
Did this protect prospective new entrants? NO..
Were we aware that this was the case? YES.
Were new entrants after 2010 hung out to dry by the ASTI voting this in? YES.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/croke-park-agreement/

Anyway I'm out now guys. I'm the one hitting a brick wall.

Frankly frank

griffzinho wrote: »

Again, please read my posts and see that I am firmly behind the plight of younger teachers. I made that abundantly clear. I think pay parity can be achieved at a moderate pace and believe the TUI deal is a good starting point. As it stands, the ASTI have put their younger members at a disadvantage in my opinion. Maybe that will change, maybe it won't, but there comes a point when a constant adversarial approach is not the way to progress.

I love contrarians around here but there are contradictions!
There are some truths ref Asti but we are where we are to use that terrible line.

Are you in support of equal pay or not ?
It is not some abstract concept to be discussed for some - it is a living reality.

What's a moderate pace?
Another 6 years? Maybe 12?

coillsaille

griffzinho wrote: »

For once and for all.

The pay of serving teachers pre 2010 was protected by the signing of the Croke Park Agreement.
Did this protect prospective new entrants? NO..
Were we aware that this was the case? YES.
Were new entrants after 2010 hung out to dry by the ASTI voting this in? YES.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/croke-park-agreement/

Anyway I'm out now guys. I'm the one hitting a brick wall.

Well if you're out that's too bad but I'll reply anyway.
Yes the ASTI did vote for an agreement in 2011 that included a protection from wages cuts for existing teachers for the 3 years the deal was to last for. The thinking at the time was that in 3 years we would be out of the agreement and free to fight once again. Nobody envisaged the cuts that were made to new entrants's pay and allowances. Maybe you don't accept that thinking and that's fair enough.

But what I'm really struggling to understand is how you are condemning the union for not signing up to an agreement while simultaneously condemning them for signing up to an agreement previously.

griffzinho

Frankly Frank. Pay restoration at a pace that the country can afford. Still a €1 Billion projected deficit for next year. That money will need to be borrowed.

The LRA is projected to cost €844M over it's lifetime. The extra deals with teacher, guards, nurses will add to that.
It is my strong opinion, that WE as a country cannot afford much more and it will put economic recovery in jeopardy.

I have emphatically said that I am in support of post 2010 entrants plight. I believe their interests are best served inside LRA this time.
I think what the TUI have achieved is a reasonable starting point for us teachers.

Back on topic , I feel what the GRA have rejected today was a reasonable starting point too.

griffzinho

coillsaille wrote: »

Well if you're out that's too bad but I'll reply anyway.
Yes the ASTI did vote for an agreement in 2011 that included a protection from wages cuts for existing teachers for the 3 years the deal was to last for. The thinking at the time was that in 3 years we would be out of the agreement and free to fight once again. Nobody envisaged the cuts that were made to new entrants's pay and allowances. Maybe you don't accept that thinking and that's fair enough.

But what I'm really struggling to understand is how you are condemning the union for not signing up to an agreement while simultaneously condemning them for signing up to an agreement previously.

As I said, I'm out... Just to finish up. If you voted for Croke Park and did not see the cuts coming then I'm sorry, you really were very short sighted or simply did not understand the situation.

As for your last question? Are you actually for real? You do realise that they are ENTIRELY different agreements? Seriously???

Anyway. I'm done. Ignore my points if you like. Get thread back on topic.
I hope you are all happy with what our situation will be in a few years time.

Frankly frank

griffzinho wrote: »

Frankly Frank. Pay restoration at a pace that the country can afford. Still a €1 Billion projected deficit for next year. That money will need to be borrowed.

The LRA is projected to cost €844M over it's lifetime. The extra deals with teacher, guards, nurses will add to that.
It is my strong opinion, that WE as a country cannot afford much more and it will put economic recovery in jeopardy.

I have emphatically said that I am in support of post 2010 entrants plight. I believe their interests are best served inside LRA this time.
I think what the TUI have achieved is a reasonable starting point for us teachers.

Back on topic , I feel what the GRA have rejected today was a reasonable starting point too.

Not good enough.

Back to where we were - while you are comfortable , others are not.
6 years is enough.

Stop the pretence of support.

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

For once and for all.

The pay of serving teachers pre 2010 was protected by the signing of the Croke Park Agreement.
Did this protect prospective new entrants? NO..
Were we aware that this was the case? YES.
Were new entrants after 2010 hung out to dry by the ASTI voting this in? YES.

http://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/conditions-of-work/croke-park-agreement/

Anyway I'm out now guys. I'm the one hitting a brick wall.

I have no interest in getting into another altercation with you,however your facts are not correct. The CPA simply states that "existing teachers"pay would not be cut before 2014. Yes we were aware that the deal protected existing teachers only but no we were not aware of what was coming down the tracks for new entrants. Nobody had a crystal ball to see into the future and as it was the first of such deals I don't think anybody foresaw how it would be used and manipulated by the powers that be.

Secondly,I,for one, did not vote for the CPA,nor the HRA nor the LRA and for all your touting of the LDA you imply that you didn't vote for CPA either,ie when it you state that you didn't vote to cut new entrants' pay. So you appear to be contradicting yourself.

Notorious

griffzinho wrote: »

The LRA is projected to cost €844M over it's lifetime. The extra deals with teacher, guards, nurses will add to that.
It is my strong opinion, that WE as a country cannot afford much more and it will put economic recovery in jeopardy.

Do you not think that the smaller players (such as teachers, gardaí, nurses..), could be given a bit of a break? While I don't agree with her, Ruth Coppinger describes the "squeezed middle" as anyone between €35-75k. We're the group constantly getting shafted, for the want of a better term.

While the problem for first time buyers is a whole other story, a single teacher realistically cannot afford to buy a home in the Greater Dublin Area when the maximum banks will lend is 3.5 times your salary. Are we supposed to just rent for the rest of our lives?

Surely the hit should be applied to those on the top end of the salary scale. The high earner who can afford to shell out more to the taxman.

While you're content with your salary, I can barely afford to get by from month to month - and I'm not a spendthrift.

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

As for your last question? Are you actually for real? You do realise that they are ENTIRELY different agreements? Seriously???

Are you actually trying to imply that the agreements are DIFFERENT? The agreements which have all rolled into each other?

Please be aware that the Government insists it did not breach the last agreement,HRA, because according to them all agreements are part of a continuous process until 2018. That is exactly what they said to the ASTI negotiators.

acequion

Notorious wrote: »

Do you not think that the smaller players (such as teachers, gardaí, nurses..), could be given a bit of a break? While I don't agree with her, Ruth Coppinger describes the "squeezed middle" as anyone between €35-75k. We're the group constantly getting shafted, for the want of a better term.

While the problem for first time buyers is a whole other story, a single teacher realistically cannot afford to buy a home in the Greater Dublin Area when the maximum banks will lend is 3.5 times your salary. Are we supposed to just rent for the rest of our lives?

Surely the hit should be applied to those on the top end of the salary scale. The high earner who can afford to shell out more to the taxman.

While you're content with your salary, I can barely afford to get by from month to month - and I'm not a spendthrift.

That last bit is a serious injustice. That a professional who spent at least 4 years training and who carries out such an important role in society can barely make ends meet is a major indictment of any administration in any developed country.

So fighting to right that wrong is an absolute must!

coillsaille

griffzinho wrote: »

As I said, I'm out... Just to finish up. If you voted for Croke Park and did not see the cuts coming then I'm sorry, you really were very short sighted or simply did not understand the situation.

As for your last question? Are you actually for real? You do realise that they are ENTIRELY different agreements? Seriously???

Anyway. I'm done. Ignore my points if you like. Get thread back on topic.
I hope you are all happy with what our situation will be in a few years time.

I'm out too for tonight. But on a personal note, as you brought it up, I did not vote in favour of any of these agreements.
You ask if I'm for real, yes I am but forgive me if I don't resort to block capitals. The LRA is not entirely different to CPA. Even those driving LRA refer to it as a successor to HRA, which at the time they refered to as the successor to CPA. Entirely different? Please point out the differences.

amacca

acequion wrote: »

Please be aware that the Government insists it did not breach the last agreement,HRA, because according to them all agreements are part of a continuous process until 2018. That is exactly what they said to the ASTI negotiators.

I suppose if you agreed to wait until 2018 they would have another line of bull**** to feed negotiators

Maybe its simplistic and feeble minded but from where I stand (slightly outside of the thing)...two parties agreed to do something ...one party fulfilled their end of said agreement (teachers) and the other has not (Govt) and furthermore has made getting what is already owed contingent upon signing up to a new "agreement" which could result in further worsening of conditions and "reforms" which are already negatively affecting education system.

Its not surprising when one party behaves this way (its as close to Bullying as makes no difference imo) the result is not an agreement.....but a disagreement.

After all what choice does anyone have when playing a game where the opposition (and thats the role they cast themselves in and way they behave too if were complaining about unions being too adversarial) seemingly can shift the position of the goal posts at will put any spin they want on it with an all too pliant national media only too glad to sway whichever way the wind is blowing except try and stand up for themselves or roll over and become a victim.

griffzinho

coillsaille wrote: »

I'm out too for tonight. But on a personal note, as you brought it up, I did not vote in favour of any of these agreements.
You ask if I'm for real, yes I am but forgive me if I don't resort to block capitals. The LRA is not entirely different to CPA. Even those driving LRA refer to it as a successor to HRA, which at the time they refered to as the successor to CPA. Entirely different? Please point out the differences.

Goodnight and goodbye. I'll leave it to ye to work out the differences. Two totally different agreements in different contexts. The fact that ye did not understand the impact Croke Park had or would have had back in 2010 does not reflect well in my opinion.

griffzinho

Notorious wrote: »

Do you not think that the smaller players (such as teachers, gardaí, nurses..), could be given a bit of a break? While I don't agree with her, Ruth Coppinger describes the "squeezed middle" as anyone between €35-75k. We're the group constantly getting shafted, for the want of a better term.

While the problem for first time buyers is a whole other story, a single teacher realistically cannot afford to buy a home in the Greater Dublin Area when the maximum banks will lend is 3.5 times your salary. Are we supposed to just rent for the rest of our lives?

Surely the hit should be applied to those on the top end of the salary scale. The high earner who can afford to shell out more to the taxman.

While you're content with your salary, I can barely afford to get by from month to month - and I'm not a spendthrift.

You have my complete sympathy in relation to house prices. That is an entirely different issue and I am very much against got policy in this area.I totally agree with you that public sector are overdue pay restoration but as I have said many times I feel this will be best achieved within Lra and cannot be achieved overnight due to budgetary constraints.

amacca

griffzinho wrote: »

I'm not going to hijack this thread with my opinions or engage anymore with anyone one on one bickering.

griffzinho wrote: »

Anyway I'm out now guys. I'm the one hitting a brick wall.

griffzinho wrote: »

As I said, I'm out... Just to finish up.

griffzinho wrote: »

Goodnight and goodbye. I'll leave it to ye

Good to see you are a man of your word and that you understand the concept of sticking to your word and doing what you say you will do...

griffzinho

amacca wrote: »

Good to see you are a man of your word and that you understand the concept of sticking to your word and doing what you say you will do...

Goodnight Amacca..

acequion

griffzinho wrote: »

Goodnight and goodbye. I'll leave it to ye to work out the differences. Two totally different agreements in different contexts. The fact that ye did not understand the impact Croke Park had or would have had back in 2010 does not reflect well in my opinion.

You're so smart,you should be running the country! And we're all thick because we couldn't see into the future! I don't know anyone who can actually.

And once again I repeat that the Government themselves have stated that all public sector agreements are part of a continuum until 2018. But you know even more than they do obviously.

gaiscioch

There's a good letter in this morning's paper reminding us how education has now become a free market commodity with free market values rather than educational values calling the shots now. With the deluge of "on message" in services and the like, I found this to be a refreshing perspective.

---

Teachers and pedagogical fads



Sir, – Teaching is one of the few professions where those who provide the service are paid less than those who administer it. Hence, I have some sympathy with teachers when they have a grievance.
Traditionally, teaching has been seen as a noble profession with its main focus on the development of young minds through the teacher’s own example and through an imaginative engagement with the great traditions of knowledge and inquiry.
Teaching was once essentially construed as a moral exercise initiating students into those aspects of our way of life that provided them with the confidence to feel at home in the world and live a life that is worth living.
Teaching has been gradually hijacked by various passing pedagogical wheezes – often the fruits of government trips abroad to see how effectively things get done in various distant parts of the world.
The latest infatuation is with the Shanghai approach to teaching mathematics, without any reference to the context in which this has been developed.
The autonomy of the profession has been steadily undermined; education is now a commodity crudely construed as a means to achieving society’s ends, however vaguely determined.
We have become trapped in a crass materialist view of human nature and of what counts as human flourishing. Teachers have little say in determining the content of the school curriculum.
We are flooded with managerial jargon inappropriately poached from industry.
The language of objectives, targets and outcomes has dimmed the light of common sense.
A good friend of mine, and an excellent teacher, was recently constrained to attend a day’s training in “instructional scaffolding”.
Much as I respect the building trade, it would not be my first port of call in searching for an appropriate metaphor to enlighten the lives of teachers. – Yours, etc,
PHILIP O’NEILL,
Oxford.

---

feardeas

Ballot held during the week in my school. I imagine that there will be a large yes in both. I'm in the minority. So a few questions

Will it be one or two days per week?
How long?
In dual union schools will TUI teachers be there not withstanding health and safety. I was in college in 00/01 so don't know what happened then though I'd say there are a lot more dual union now.

RE s and s
Will non union teachers be directed by school management to continue the scheme?
New entrants since HRA have it in their contracts AFAIK, if they are non union I imagine they have to do it.
How much notice will be given?
What is the likelihood of outside supervisors being brought in?

RE junior cycle
We're teaching the specification with no clue about what will happen in assessment and no nuggets being got at in-service.


These are just a few off the top of my head. Might send an ould email to the folks in ASTI HQ and wait for their enlightened response.

political analyst

gaiscioch wrote: »

Sir, – Teaching is one of the few professions where those who provide the service are paid less than those who administer it. Hence, I have some sympathy with teachers when they have a grievance.
Traditionally, teaching has been seen as a noble profession with its main focus on the development of young minds through the teacher’s own example and through an imaginative engagement with the great traditions of knowledge and inquiry.
Teaching was once essentially construed as a moral exercise initiating students into those aspects of our way of life that provided them with the confidence to feel at home in the world and live a life that is worth living.
Teaching has been gradually hijacked by various passing pedagogical wheezes – often the fruits of government trips abroad to see how effectively things get done in various distant parts of the world.
The latest infatuation is with the Shanghai approach to teaching mathematics, without any reference to the context in which this has been developed.
The autonomy of the profession has been steadily undermined; education is now a commodity crudely construed as a means to achieving society’s ends, however vaguely determined.
We have become trapped in a crass materialist view of human nature and of what counts as human flourishing. Teachers have little say in determining the content of the school curriculum.

But teachers have always had to teach the curriculum set by the Department.

We are flooded with managerial jargon inappropriately poached from industry.
The language of objectives, targets and outcomes has dimmed the light of common sense.
A good friend of mine, and an excellent teacher, was recently constrained to attend a day’s training in “instructional scaffolding”.
Much as I respect the building trade, it would not be my first port of call in searching for an appropriate metaphor to enlighten the lives of teachers. – Yours, etc,
PHILIP O’NEILL,
Oxford.

Teachers have always had to teach the curriculum that is set by the Department.

Education is designed to prepare children for adulthood. Therefore, education always has been a means to achieving society's ends.

political analyst

feardeas wrote: »

Ballot held during the week in my school. I imagine that there will be a large yes in both. I'm in the minority. So a few questions

Will it be one or two days per week?
How long?
In dual union schools will TUI teachers be there not withstanding health and safety. I was in college in 00/01 so don't know what happened then though I'd say there are a lot more dual union now.

RE s and s
Will non union teachers be directed by school management to continue the scheme?
New entrants since HRA have it in their contracts AFAIK, if they are non union I imagine they have to do it.
How much notice will be given?
What is the likelihood of outside supervisors being brought in?

RE junior cycle
We're teaching the specification with no clue about what will happen in assessment and no nuggets being got at in-service.


These are just a few off the top of my head. Might send an ould email to the folks in ASTI HQ and wait for their enlightened response.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-may-close-if-teachers-demands-not-met-1.2749579

The Irish Times understands secondary school management bodies representing about 500 voluntary and community schools are drawing up contingency plans to hire staff to help prevent schools closing in the event of such action.
Most secondary schools run by the Education and Training Boards – staffed mainly by members of the Teachers’ Union of Ireland (TUI) – will not be affected.
It is understood that these supervisors – who are to take the place of teachers during break times – would be paid about €20 an hour and would be Garda-vetted in compliance with child safety legislation.
Vetting is understood to take about three weeks, but could be fast-tracked, according to informed sources.
The boards of management of individual schools would be responsible for hiring supervisors, while the Department of Education is understood to be prepared to make funds available.

sandyxxx

Around half a dozen ASTI members in our school have abdicated to the TUI. The TUI has taken them in. I'm TUI myself but surprised there could be Union transfer in times of dispute....I'm hearing anecdotal tales of traditional ASTI schools now having TUI branches setup.....is this the beginning of the end for the ASTI?


.... I should add all the transferrees were NQT's chasing CID's,would probably have done the same myself,in their shoes,but I'm TUI as is!

Notorious

sandyxxx wrote: »

...is this the beginning of the end for the ASTI?

I'm a TUI member who is strongly considering a move to the ASTI once the dispute has abided (I'm under the impression that there is no flipping sides during a dispute).

Subutai

sandyxxx wrote: »

Around half a dozen ASTI members in our school have abdicated to the TUI. The TUI has taken them in. I'm TUI myself but surprised there could be Union transfer in times of dispute....I'm hearing anecdotal tales of traditional ASTI schools now having TUI branches setup.....is this the beginning of the end for the ASTI?


.... I should add all the transferrees were NQT's chasing CID's,would probably have done the same myself,in their shoes,but I'm TUI as is!

I'm a new teacher in an ASTI school. I joined the ASTI last week, because they have bargaining rights in this school and so the TUI aren't an option. I agree more with how the TUI have conducted themselves re: the JCSA and the LRA. I'd join them if it were an option.

As it isn't an option I joined the union that my co-workers are in, and I will participate fully within that. I'd encourage other NQTs to do the same, we can only alter the trajectory of the ASTI from within.

I also wouldn't ever cross a picket line or interfere with a dispute, and don't want to be forced to do so by management if it came to that. Being within the Union is the only protection against such pressure.

evolving_doors

sandyxxx wrote: »

Around half a dozen ASTI members in our school have abdicated to the TUI. The TUI has taken them in. I'm TUI myself but surprised there could be Union transfer in times of dispute....I'm hearing anecdotal tales of traditional ASTI schools now having TUI branches setup.....is this the beginning of the end for the ASTI?


.... I should add all the transferrees were NQT's chasing CID's,would probably have done the same myself,in their shoes,but I'm TUI as is!

You can report em if you like!
crossing sides during industrial action isn't allowed. Who's to know with data protection though.