Reflections on a long journey with the 30 kWh

BoatMad

Well I completed a day trip to Belfast to visit titanic quarter , 300 km each way , with three hours in titanic. At no time did we exceed 100 kmh, Google goes the estimated travel time at 3 hours.

Left Gorey in good weather with 100 % overnight charge , 5 bars of heat , wind from the south , no rain. Comfortably reached Turvey, decamped to airside as another leaf starting charging in Turvey.

Charged to 85 % adds 2 bars of heat , 7 bars.

Heavy rain begins , charge again at Fiveways, Newry (the charger is in the worst place imaginable ) . Cafe there was appalling slow

Lost one temp bar on drive to Newry , gained two in fcp charge. Hence 8 bars

Reached titanic , pluged in to 3kw , with 40 % remaining.

Three hours later, departed with 60% , temp bar 7.

Very heavy rain , eats power , charged sprucefield, to 85%, temp bar 9 , charged castle Bellingham , temp bar 9 , charged Luas sandyford , temp bar 9

( each time the long drive lost 1-2 bars keeping speed under 100 kmph

Interesting, I did a similar journey in the 24 kWh the week before ( ashford to Monaghan ) and we never breached 7 bars.

Trip up took 4h30 minutes with charge stops and a 15-20 mins McD breakfast break ( not at a charger which was dumb )

Doing it again , I think it's too hard on the car , and too slow over such a long dstsnce , I'll take the pickup

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

Doing it again , I think it's too hard on the car , and too slow over such a long dstsnce , I'll take the pickup

What do you mean "too hard on the car"?
Are you referring to the battery temp?
That's hardly too hard, it's designed for that. Do you think it damages the battery?

But I agree it's too slow. You need to be able to do that journey with just one stop.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

What do you mean "too hard on the car"?
Are you referring to the battery temp?
That's hardly too hard, it's designed for that. Do you think it damages the battery?

But I agree it's too slow. You need to be able to do that journey with just one stop.

While the battery is within limits. I'm not too comfortable with numbers like 9

cros13

Yeah, I've noticed a big difference in those temperature bars between the 30kWh and the mk1.5 24kWh.

The 24kWh had little problem with being rapid charged 8-9 times in a row.

I suspect there's a combination of factors here, one of which may be conservative limits in the software given the 30kWh's new 8 year warranty.

September1

It seems that something changed, in my 2011 LEAF I have never seen battery temp drop on such journey - only way was UP.

If you are concerned about speed, but still want to use EV it is optimal to use every FCP - just charge enough to reach next one with 1 bar. You probably know that speed of charging depend on SoC so this way you avail for shortest possible charge times.

The 24 Kwh doesn't allow the higher rate of charge, the 30 Kwh allows 45 Kw until around 80-85% the Leaf starts dropping current around 35% and by 50% is charging 30-35 Kw. The more the battery degrades the slower the battery will charge, though it might appear the same time , that's only because you have less capacity.

Only time will tell how this reacts, though current indications from the U.S show the hot climate there has a similar effect on capacity loss on the 30 Kwh? no s**T. !

Nissan cooled the 24 Kwh eNV 200 . The effects of heat on Li batteries have been well understood for a very long time. They chose not to cool the battery in the Leaf.

The only way to change this is to either cool the battery via the AC or create a battery that can take the current in and out without heating.

LiPo batteries "can" depending on chemistry, take huge currents without heating to anything noticeable though they can also burst into flames for absolutely no reason at all, their chemistry is a lot more stable these days, still , I'd never store them in the house.

While the Leaf battery still operates under designed limits to prevent run-a-way, that is, permanent damage, it isn't enough to prevent degradation. Ideally batteries are most happy around 20 Deg C both for performance and longevity. Probably even a lower temp for longevity. But it's not just heat that reduces battery capacity.

I would imagine that in order for Nissan to fit 30 Kwh in the same space they had to compromise somewhere but who knows, it might last a very long time in an Irish climate and I don't think the odd roasting might not do long term damage unless perhaps it actually goes into the red zone, then who knows, that's about 50 Deg C and that's pretty damn hot for a Li battery.

In theory if Leaf II has twice the power energy as the 30 Kwh it should be able to take twice the current given the chemistry is identical. (identical)

I can only imagine Nissan invented the Leaf with the belief that no one in their right mind would drive an ev for more than maybe 20-30 miles a day and fast charging would be a once in a blue moon event because anyone wanting to drive far would most likely take an ICE. I'd also assumed they believed the van drivers would fast charge much more and so they decided to be safe to cool the battery but they only did this knowing the effects heat would have.

The 24 Kwh is holding up pretty well, I've lost about 3-4% after nearly 49,000 Kms and 1 year 9 months. I have never noticed any loss in capacity. It always gets to work and home on average with the same amount of charge % as it did new.

zilog_jones

Deleted User wrote: »

They chose not to cool the battery in the Leaf.

Isn't is air-cooled from the cabin ventilation system? I know it may not be ideal, but it's better than nothing.

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

The 24 Kwh is holding up pretty well, I've lost about 3-4% after nearly 49,000 Kms and 1 year 9 months. I have never noticed any loss in capacity. It always gets to work and home on average with the same amount of charge % as it did new.

You said a few months ago you were down to 93%. Has it recovered?

KCross

KCross wrote: »

You said a few months ago you were down to 93%. Has it recovered?

Went back to 97% the other day , leaving it sit it seems to report reduced capacity by 3-4%. I find 6.6 Kw charging and DC charging from a low charge seems to bump it up a bit.

When not in use or pottering around I leave it sit at about 35% and charge to 60-70%, plenty for pottering about. It probably takes the BMS time to adjust , no one really knows why this happens.

zilog_jones

zilog_jones wrote: »

Isn't is air-cooled from the cabin ventilation system? I know it may not be ideal, but it's better than nothing.

I read those rumours on mynissanleaf, but as far as I'm aware this is speculation.

n97 mini

As a by-the-by, the Civic IMA's battery is cooled/warmed by cabin air. There is a vent on the parcel shelf and a suction fan under the battery which draws cabin air down, effectively warming it in winter and cooling it in summer. I saw a documentary where one of the designers said "temperature that's comfortable for humans is comfortable for batteries" or similar.

zilog_jones

Yeah there's similar on the Prius Plug-in - two vents beside and below the rear seats, and some fans somewhere (can hear them running when charging, and can test through OBDII port). I assumed something similar in the Leaf (based on what other people said online) but I guess it's not as obvious.

If you look at pics of the Leaf battery, it's fully enclosed so I see no way they can air cool it from the cabin AC.

n97 mini

Interesting (old) article here bigging up the Volt's liquid cooled battery. In hindsight it didn't work as well as planned after one crashed Volt caught fire 3 weeks later(!) as coolant corroded the batteries. GM in turn re-engineed the battery and offered to buy back existing Volts.

http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/28/nissan-taking-shortcut-on-leaf-battery-no-thermal-management-system/

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

Yeah there's similar on the Prius Plug-in - two vents beside and below the rear seats, and some fans somewhere (can hear them running when charging, and can test through OBDII port). I assumed something similar in the Leaf (based on what other people said online) but I guess it's not as obvious.

I am now of the view , as a 30 kWh owner the 24kwh is a far better long distance car as it can ha she multiple FCP sessions with little gain in heat. The 30 kWh is a 2 x FCP at best.

Let me say I have my concerns

chillin117

Reading this thread tells me I would not want all that grief. Watching bars, battery temp, will the next charging point be open/broken/blocked by a gob****e etc ? Afraid to use wipers and side lights at the same time, Do you mind if I turn off the radio because it's starting to rain ? I went through all that grief with the early analogue mobile phones. They finally cracked it and they all went digital...joy !
IMO The battery/charging range thing is still at the (analogue) stage technically speaking as the phones were years ago. I love the idea of an electric car but will wait a few years until their technology improves.

peposhi

chillin117 wrote: »

Reading this thread tells me I would not want all that grief. Watching bars, battery temp, will the next charging point be open/broken/blocked by a gob****e etc ? Afraid to use wipers and side lights at the same time, Do you mind if I turn off the radio because it's starting to rain ? I went through all that grief with the early analogue mobile phones. They finally cracked it and they all went digital...joy !
IMO The battery/charging range thing is still at the (analogue) stage technically speaking as the phones were years ago. I love the idea of an electric car but will wait a few years until their technology improves.

Well, an EV would be a cracking second family car for nearly every home... None of what you mentioned above applies when driving less than 120-150kms a day.

The "digital" era for EVs is quite literally around the corner.

My wife was completely against getting and EV, now she wants one for herself. Most of the people would realise how good an EV is only when they actually drive one...

cros13

chillin117 wrote: »

Afraid to use wipers and side lights at the same time, Do you mind if I turn off the radio

?

Common misconception. Wipers, lights, heated seats, radio et al. don't use enough power to matter in any modern EV. The only things using any consequential amount of power are the heating/AC and the drive motor.

For example: The non-LED high power consumption headlights that are base equipment on the i3 use 120 watts total (55W each) at high beam. The drive motor uses 125,000W (yeah, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE THOUSAND WATTS) peak or 25-30,000W to hold you at 120km/h on a flat road with no wind (more than half is due to wind resistance at that speed).

Idiot reviewers have misidentified the increase in air density at night (due to lower temperatures) which increases the power consumption of the motor slightly, and combinations of other factors such as lower traffic volumes after dark resulting in higher average speeds as being somehow related to them turning on lights or other minor electrics.

They have a longer warranty on the 30 Kwh so whether allowing a higher rate of charge was wise or not will be known in time.

Maybe get leafspy if you haven't already ? keep a check on it.

On mynissanleaf form in hot climates there seems to be heat related degradation, how it fares out in Ireland is another matter, especially if people are fast charging a lot to the point the battery is getting very warm to hot.

Lights, Wipers, Radio, heated Mirrors have a tiny impact on range.

even the heater in the Leaf or any ev with Heat Pump uses little energy , especially when pre heated.

Below 0 deg C heater consumption does go up but still far better than normal heater.

BoatMad

chillin117 wrote: »

Reading this thread tells me I would not want all that grief. Watching bars, battery temp, will the next charging point be open/broken/blocked by a gob****e etc ? Afraid to use wipers and side lights at the same time, Do you mind if I turn off the radio because it's starting to rain ? I went through all that grief with the early analogue mobile phones. They finally cracked it and they all went digital...joy !
IMO The battery/charging range thing is still at the (analogue) stage technically speaking as the phones were years ago. I love the idea of an electric car but will wait a few years until their technology improves.

another ill informed viewpoint typical of someone thats never actually driven a EV

Bigus

BoatMad wrote: »

another ill informed viewpoint typical of someone thats never actually driven a EV

But it could be said,that driving an EV is really like going around in an ICE car with the reserve fuel WARNING light permanently on, or about to come on.

On top of this,the anxiety caused is similar to your fuel warning light flashing( in an ICE car ) , during any half decent journey, in the midst of a nationwide fuel strike.

Not acceptable, to lots of people who wouldn't dream of driving around permanently on reserve or 40 km from reserve.

BoatMad

But it could be said,that driving an EV is really like going around in an ICE car with the reserve fuel WARNING light permanently on

my fuel light on my diesel comes on at around 60 km, my EV has 3 times that range , ???

can I ask are you driving an EV? , I do and your comment is incorrect

KCross

chillin117 wrote: »

Reading this thread tells me I would not want all that grief. Watching bars, battery temp, will the next charging point be open/broken/blocked by a gob****e etc ? Afraid to use wipers and side lights at the same time, Do you mind if I turn off the radio because it's starting to rain ?

peposhi wrote: »

None of what you mentioned above applies when driving less than 120-150kms a day.

BoatMad wrote: »

another ill informed viewpoint typical of someone thats never actually driven a EV

I suppose to be fair to the poster the bit about the charge points is true. There are enough threads and moaning on this forum about chargers being ICE'd, offline for 12mths and people abusing them for free electricity etc.

The rest of it is ill informed alright.

And I guess the thread does talk about the battery getting hot in long trips so the negative impression has been given by "us".

BoatMad

There are enough threads and moaning on this forum about chargers being ICE'd, offline for 12mths and people abusing them for free electricity etc.

true, but Facebook amplifies negatives as the positive experiences dont post.

in my case one negative experience with the FCP network in 7 month and 26,000km says it all, the network is much better then people give it credit for

It is when you use it mainly off peak times in the lower population areas.

The problem with Naas apart from the obvious is that 1 fast charger is completely inadequate for the size of Naas and the surrounding population. Naas should have 3 fast chargers and more AC points.

chillin117

Deleted User wrote: »

It is when you use it mainly off peak times in the lower population areas.

The problem with Naas apart from the obvious is that 1 fast charger is completely inadequate for the size of Naas and the surrounding population. Naas should have 3 fast chargers and more AC points.

That's what I meant. I will wait till they all get their ducks in a row regarding chargers, battery technology, range etc. The state of permanent ''anxiety'' would put me off at the moment.

Well, Renault have a 250 Km 40 Kwh battery coming next month (confirmed)

Range will vary from 210-280 kms hard to not so hard driving. Compare that to my 24 Kwh Leaf getting about 130 Kms can get up to 140 odd kms driving easier in fine weather.

SO if you got say 250 Kms range this is a decent amount without having to visit a fast charger, plug in at an AC point and it will be charged to 80% in 2 hrs, you really can't beat that Zoe charger, Just make sure if anyone is reading this that the get the Zoe with the 44 Kw fast charger and not the 22 Kw.

Getting 250 odd kms on one charge that's pretty good , I'd have to charge after say 110 kms from 100% for 30 odd mins to 80% and that would take me a further 80-90 kms. Then I'd have to charge again.

The Leaf 40 Kwh should be available soon enough too. Twice the storage in 6 years isn't bad really, we'll be up to 60 Kwh in 2018 for 340 odd kms range.

Idbatterim

I pop in and take a read of these threads the odd time. The amount of time the OP had to stop. I mean often would you not be stopping and spending money on ****e while you wait for it to charge? tea, coffee, paper, snacks?!

chillin117

Idbatterim wrote: »

I pop in and take a read of these threads the odd time. The amount of time the OP had to stop. I mean often would you not be stopping and spending money on ****e while you wait for it to charge? tea, coffee, paper, snacks?!

The money you ''save'' on petrol/diesel would be spent on snacks while waiting around. You would look like the Michelin Man tottering about in your Leaf

KCross

Idbatterim wrote: »

I pop in and take a read of these threads the odd time. The amount of time the OP had to stop. I mean often would you not be stopping and spending money on ****e while you wait for it to charge? tea, coffee, paper, snacks?!

chillin117 wrote: »

The money you ''save'' on petrol/diesel would be spent on snacks while waiting around. You would look like the Michelin Man tottering about in your Leaf

Most people dont use the charge network on a daily basis. They charge at home at night and it has enough charge to do all their commuting the following day.

So, it depends on how you plan to use the car. If you do more than 120km's a day then the snack bill could add up and its the longer range EV you need. Snacks have cost me nothing!

Bigus

BoatMad wrote: »

my fuel light on my diesel comes on at around 60 km, my EV has 3 times that range , ???

can I ask are you driving an EV? , I do and your comment is incorrect

But is yours not the better 30 kWh with faster charging ?

So my comments are more relevant to the majority of (24kwh ) available on the secondhand market.



No I don't have one as yet and got outbid on the first one last week , but my biggest concern was getting it 30 km home from the auction , which I don't think a C-zero would do on 1/4 charge. It was to be a chape EV for my educational purposes.

I have a model 3 deposit down, but I'll have a few EVs in the fleet before that arrives an i3 being lead contender, in from the UK

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

I pop in and take a read of these threads the odd time. The amount of time the OP had to stop. I mean often would you not be stopping and spending money on ****e while you wait for it to charge? tea, coffee, paper, snacks?!

I don't, I'd bring my own food if I needed.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't, I'd bring my own food if I needed.

Why am I not suprised lol

oinkely

If you can charge at home and don't regularly do more than 100 to 120 KM a day then I'd say jump in and go electric. The public network would probably be a bit tiring if you had to rely on it everyday. I use it regularly as we have two leafs and only one home charge point. Our driveway is a bit tight for two cars anyway. I usually move one when I get up and plug in the other one to take advantage of the cheap rate leccy. I do still have to charge on the public network sometimes but find it to be pretty good, though sods law dictates that at times when you have to have it working it will break down on you! That said, i would take a Leaf any day over the ICE alternatives.

We have 12k km up on the two leafs since March, so that's €1200 not put into diesel/petrol for very little outlay on electricity. That's close to 5% of the purchase costs of the two cars saved already.

I generally take the charging stops as exercise stops rather than cake eating ones, so have managed to remain approximately the same size as i was before the Leaf arrived!

Mancomb Seepgood

I think the idea of EV drivers being in a state of permanent anxiety regarding charging is a bit overstated.

People are more likely to post about problems that they had as opposed to a humdrum, routine journey with absolutely no problems whatsoever. We’ve had a Leaf (24kw) as our only car since March 2015. Over 36k driven in that time and have not been stranded once. It’s perfect for my 50km round trip commute, occasional visits to the in-laws in Tipp (230km roundtrip) and rare longer journeys. It fits my pattern of usage perfectly but that may not be the case for those who do longer distances regularly.

That is not to downplay the increasing issues with the charging network, however. Since the debacle surrounding the introduction of fees to use the charging network last year, it seems to take longer and longer to address charge point outages. The FCP in Carlow has spent more time down that up lately it seems and that’s in a pretty vital spot. I’d definitely be tempted to downsize the car and upsize the battery by moving to a Zoe once my 3 year PCP is up.

Gazzmonkey

Idbatterim wrote: »

The amount of time the OP had to stop. I mean often would you not be stopping and spending money on ****e while you wait for it to charge? tea, coffee, paper, snacks?!

Yeah noticed that as well

Put me clean off

The 40 Kwh Leaf should be announced soon, And in 2018 the 60 Kwh Leaf should arrive, the 2nd gen. And maybe one or 2 others.

The Hyundai Ioniq should be available this month, and who knows, that might get a battery upgrade sooner than we think.

40 Kwh should give 220 - 280 kms range. That's pretty respectable.

80sDiesel

oinkely wrote: »

We have 12k km up on the two leafs since March, so that's 1200 not put into diesel/petrol for very little outlay on electricity. That's close to 5% of the purchase costs of the two cars saved already.

I generally take the charging stops as exercise stops rather than cake eating ones, so have managed to remain approximately the same size as i was before the Leaf arrived!

But if you could have 'charged' the cars in 5-10 minutes at multiple locations and never have range anxiety , then would you pay that additional 1200 ?

BoatMad

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Yeah noticed that as well

Put me clean off

my consumption of service station coffee has not increased since I am a "divil" for a cuppa while travelling anyway

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The 40 Kwh Leaf should be announced soon, And in 2018 the 60 Kwh Leaf should arrive, the 2nd gen. And maybe one or 2 others.

The Hyundai Ioniq should be available this month, and who knows, that might get a battery upgrade sooner than we think.

40 Kwh should give 220 - 280 kms range. That's pretty respectable.

interestingly the dealers and Nissan ireland, have said they dont believe there is a 40 kmh model in the current body shape coming and that initial launch of Gen 2 will be 48 Kwh

BoatMad

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

I think the idea of EV drivers being in a state of permanent anxiety regarding charging is a bit overstated.

People are more likely to post about problems that they had as opposed to a humdrum, routine journey with absolutely no problems whatsoever. We’ve had a Leaf (24kw) as our only car since March 2015. Over 36k driven in that time and have not been stranded once. It’s perfect for my 50km round trip commute, occasional visits to the in-laws in Tipp (230km roundtrip) and rare longer journeys. It fits my pattern of usage perfectly but that may not be the case for those who do longer distances regularly.

That is not to downplay the increasing issues with the charging network, however. Since the debacle surrounding the introduction of fees to use the charging network last year, it seems to take longer and longer to address charge point outages. The FCP in Carlow has spent more time down that up lately it seems and that’s in a pretty vital spot. I’d definitely be tempted to downsize the car and upsize the battery by moving to a Zoe once my 3 year PCP is up.

I agree, the FCP network performers relatively well, and we have 27K Km since March , never came close to being stranded and was inconvenienced once at carlow requiring a diversion to Mayfield

The long round trip to titanic, did take far longer then in an ICE, EVs are not perfect ( yet )

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

interestingly the dealers and Nissan ireland, have said they dont believe there is a 40 kmh model in the current body shape coming and that initial launch of Gen 2 will be 48 Kwh

I seriously doubt anyone that works for Nissan Ireland would have a clue, if it hasn't been leaked all over the internet then I would say they're wrong. Dealers usually end up relaying stuff they read off the internet just like the rest of us, Nissan Motor Co aren't going to give them any information of future products until they're available or just about to be. `

Though I could end up eating those words...... we'll see. Seems foolish if Nissan only bring out a 48 Kwh Leaf II. And the longer they leave it the more sales they loose.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I seriously doubt anyone that works for Nissan Ireland would have a clue, if it hasn't been leaked all over the internet then I would say they're wrong. Dealers usually end up relaying stuff they read off the internet just like the rest of us, Nissan Motor Co aren't going to give them any information of future products until they're available or just about to be. `

Though I could end up eating those words...... we'll see. Seems foolish if Nissan only bring out a 48 Kwh Leaf II. And the longer they leave it the more sales they loose.

I would be very surprised that the current body could actually house 40 kwh, given the heat buildup in the 30 kwh, even if Nissan approached the density of Tesla ( and they arnt far behind) it would be a struggle to contain the battery in the current shell and doubly so without active thermal management

this is my reason why I dont beleive there is a 2017 40Kwh, also the dealers would have been at the launch events by now anyway MY 2017 runs from June 2016 to june 2017 in reality

the source of the 40 kwh Leaf in current body style can be traced back to one single internet story

i could be wrong of course, thats a faint possibility

I believe that the current 48 Kwh offering developed with Renault will appear in Leaf 2 and will at the very least contain Renaults version of air cooling of the cells

On the contrary, I believe a 40 Kwh battery will not heat up enough to be of concern, the larger ah will normally have a higher C capability. I doubt a 45 kw charger would be any concern for a 45 Kwh battery of course it could be but I don't think so.

Even though tesla use a lot more Ah they run much more power. 80 Kw is not going to heat a 40 Kwh battery up much. A 24 Kwh battery won't heat either if it's actually designed for a 2 C charge or whatever they want to run through it, nissan's battery obviously isn't.

I also seriously doubt Nissan will have a more powerful motor, it's like they think ICE power and fuel prices, there's no need to offer such low HP in electrics. Unless heating is a factor maybe lol.

The new battery will most likely be made by LG Chem. I expect fitting it in the current chassis wouldn't be a major issue.

They should keep the Leaf and sell it as a different cheaper model.

BoatMad

Tesla have aggressive and very active thermal management , thats the difference , the current Leaf does not and relies on passive cooling that not even air assisted. I cannot see what is a considerable increase in packaging density not resulting in an exacerbation of the cooling issues.

I stand by my comments, I have seen nothing in anyway credible that suggest a 40 kwh Leaf is coming in the next 2-3 months

The point being that the larger AH pack can most likely take the same current without getting warm enough to justify cooling. I can't see 45 kw heating up a 40 Kwh pack much , at least in cooler climates.

The current 30 Kwh leaf allows a higher rate of charge for much longer hence the heating.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The point being that the larger AH pack can most likely take the same current without getting warm enough to justify cooling. I can't see 45 kw heating up a 40 Kwh pack much , at least in cooler climates.

The current 30 Kwh leaf allows a higher rate of charge for much longer hence the heating.

yes put the density of packaging that gives you this higher Kwh in the same space, means that calling and heat dissipation becomes an increasingly greater problem,

The 30 Kwh will gain heat just in driving, never mind charging

Guess we have to wait and see what they come up with.