New Proposed Sheep Scheme

paddysdream

Surprised to find no one has mentioned the proposals for the new sheep scheme.Are the returns from sheep so good this year that it's slipped past everyone?

Looking at the options its hard not to feel that the thinking behind this (and many other schemes)is to give to the farmer and make him spend it on products and/or services that benefit the wider agri related industry.Kind of a green money laundering scheme.

Now in fairness the proposed options are not the most onerous but its the thinking behind them rather than the actual options themselves that I find a problem.Are many of these schemes planned to support farmers or, like the farm building grants of the celtic tiger era,mainly to benefit those that farmers buy from?

On an unrelated but similarly depressing theme,many on here finding that lamb thrive and kill out is pretty poor this year?Every single farmer that I have met over the last two months has the same complaint ie lambs not putting on flesh and/or killing out anything from one half to a full kilo under normal given similar live weight too last year.

Thats about my quota of depression for today thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Mac Taylor

Would be inclined to agree with you, more Paperwork, more audits and checks. We only keep a few ewes so not really going to make a difference one way or the other.

paddysdream

Mac Taylor wrote: »

Would be inclined to agree with you, more Paperwork, more audits and checks. We only keep a few ewes so not really going to make a difference one way or the other.

To be honest the scheme at a tenner a head or so would be very worthwhile here so not complaining about that,rather the whole thrust and thinking behind such supports.

Paperwork and audits are a fact of life,whether we like it or not,and that ain't gonna change.Hard to complain about waste and overspending in other sectors and then complain about oversight on agri spending I suppose.
Its more the fact that the powers that be are almost ashamed that returns from farming,well the drystock sector to be specific,are so poor that an injection of funds is needed to sustain even a semblance of an industry ,but to admit this would mean that the cheap food policy of the past fifty years has benefited everyone bar the primary producers so each and every support package must be dependent on a fig leaf excuse of carbon footprint,water quality,greenhouse gas reduction etc etc(pick whatever is the issue of the week at any given time and if you don't like it then make up one of your own).

Bleating Lamb

paddysdream wrote: »

To be honest the scheme at a tenner a head or so would be very worthwhile here so not complaining about that,rather the whole thrust and thinking behind such supports.

Paperwork and audits are a fact of life,whether we like it or not,and that ain't gonna change.Hard to complain about waste and overspending in other sectors and then complain about oversight on agri spending I suppose.
Its more the fact that the powers that be are almost ashamed that returns from farming,well the drystock sector to be specific,are so poor that an injection of funds is needed to sustain even a semblance of an industry ,but to admit this would mean that the cheap food policy of the past fifty years has benefited everyone bar the primary producers so each and every support package must be dependent on a fig leaf excuse of carbon footprint,water quality,greenhouse gas reduction etc etc(pick whatever is the issue of the week at any given time and if you don't like it then make up one of your own).

Agree with your sentiments,govt( regardless of make up of it) don't want to be seen by urbanites as giving out money for nothing,so it's inevitable that there will be checks and balances attached to it.

The way I look at the scheme,it will help go some way towards the costs of keeping your individual ewes for the year re taking proper care of them with timely doses,injections etc etc.

charolais0153

What are requirements or is it free money

Green farmer

Hope they move abit faster in getting it over the line. Anyone get start letter from dept on new discussion group ?

arctictree

I had a read of it in the journal and cant see that there would be much left for the farmer after all the conditions have been complied with....

ganmo

Haven't looked at it too closely but some of the options already common practice on a lot of farms

solerina

havnt looked into it yet but one of the neighbours said its like the beef scheme with 4 and 5 star rams needed..in fairness if that's the case it wont be worth getting into...is there any truth to this ?

ganmo

solerina wrote: »

havnt looked into it yet but one of the neighbours said its like the beef scheme with 4 and 5 star rams needed..in fairness if that's the case it wont be worth getting into...is there any truth to this ?

from what i read you had to pick 2 options of 8 which included scanning ewes, 4/5 star ram, giving lambs meal and minerals to ewes and lambs

paddysdream

From reading the little bit in the media so far it seems that you have to pick one option from menu A ;either mineral supplementation of ewes POST mating or a foot problem control plan (assume vet. input needed for this)
and one option from menu B;star rated ram,parasite control plan,scanning,blowfly control measure,meal feeding post weaning of hill lambs.
Think there is another option or so in menu B. but cannot think of it at the moment.
Looks like anyone selling Cobalt/B12 will see a real increase in sales whilst the scanning men will need to invest in a few more docket books.

Nothing very difficult really for the vast majority of people but its the inevitable extra paperwork and inspections that may dissuade some people from joining.Things like having a scanning docket for 500 in December and inspection finds 475 in January with sales of 22 dry ewes but no knackery dockets.
Where things like this cause problems is where you might have a "quota" of 450 based on previous census but scanner does 500 and writes docket for same and Dept will still look for this number although its not relevant to the scheme.
On any decent numbers this scheme will be worth applying for but for people with maybe 80 or less breeding ewes the money/hassle balance could tilt either way.
As far as I know a lower uptake will not mean any extra for those that do decide to participate

sea12

I think it's based on an average number of ewes you had between 2014 and 2015 as returned in your census.

Green farmer

sea12 wrote: »

I think it's based on an average number of ewes you had between 2014 and 2015 as returned in your census.

Does that mean we'll get some payment on it before the end of year ? Or is it this time next year ?

J.O. Farmer

Green farmer wrote: »

Does that mean we'll get some payment on it before the end of year ? Or is it this time next year ?

No it'll be right before the next election.

The details of the scheme have to be announced and it'll be something you have to sign up to and presumably have completed certain tasks before payment so probably some time between this time next year and mid 2018.

ganmo

Green farmer wrote: »

Does that mean we'll get some payment on it before the end of year ? Or is it this time next year ?

No it only starts in Jan, to run for 3 years. I haven't seen any payment timeline

Green farmer

I suppose it'll come when it comes so, which is better then not comin at all.

BannerBarry

Does anyone have the specifics of the Sheep scheme announced in thr budget?
Below is as detailed as I can find.

Is "Animal Welfare" codewords for red tape and jobs for the boys?

€25m is about €4 per ewe I calculate... I can't see a rush to the marts buying over this announcement!

"Under the Rural Development Scheme, there will be increased funding of €107m, which includes €25m for a new animal welfare sheep scheme. Some 34,000 farmers are expected to participate in the scheme."

ganmo

BannerBarry wrote: »

Does anyone have the specifics of the Sheep scheme announced in thr budget?
Below is as detailed as I can find.

Is "Animal Welfare" codewords for red tape and jobs for the boys?

€25m is about €4 per ewe I calculate... I can't see a rush to the marts buying over this announcement!

"Under the Rural Development Scheme, there will be increased funding of €107m, which includes €25m for a new animal welfare sheep scheme. Some 34,000 farmers are expected to participate in the scheme."

It wasn't announced in the budget, it was announced in May!
Nobody is goin out buying as it's gonna be based on previous census figures and it's gonna be 10 per ewe

rangler1

BannerBarry wrote: »

Does anyone have the specifics of the Sheep scheme announced in thr budget?
Below is as detailed as I can find.

Is "Animal Welfare" codewords for red tape and jobs for the boys?

€25m is about €4 per ewe I calculate... I can't see a rush to the marts buying over this announcement!

"Under the Rural Development Scheme, there will be increased funding of €107m, which includes €25m for a new animal welfare sheep scheme. Some 34,000 farmers are expected to participate in the scheme."

Supposed to be 2.5 million ewes in the country......at €10/ewe that's €25m...I'm looking forward to it

BannerBarry

rangler1 wrote: »

Supposed to be 2.5 million ewes in the country......at €10/ewe that's €25m...I'm looking forward to it

Great.. it might mean we don't have to dip in to the Income Averaging break year for another few years of bad losses so!
Thanks for the update.

Green farmer

FJ says payment is €10 and based on 14 and 15 census. Payable up to 2020 and is fixed payment so won't get any more money even if you doubled your flock .

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

FJ says payment is €10 and based on 14 and 15 census. Payable up to 2020 and is fixed payment so won't get any more money even if you doubled your flock .

Hope you're right, wouldn't be long losing ten euros/ewe if lamb nos increased

Username John

Green farmer wrote: »

FJ says payment is €10 and based on 14 and 15 census. Payable up to 2020 and is fixed payment so won't get any more money even if you doubled your flock .

Do you need to maintain the same numbers as per 14 / 15 census til 2020 to continue to be paid?
(I would this to be the case, as it would seem logical)
But just wondering if anyone knew for sure...

charolais0153

Typical keeping more ewes this year than last

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

Hope you're right, wouldn't be long losing ten euros/ewe if lamb nos increased

That's what the journal says anyway.

Buford T. Justice XIX

https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/785829314210050048

kk.man

Are there provisions for new entrants?

Siamsa Sessions

kk.man wrote: »

Are there provisions for new entrants?

I'd be interested in the answer to this too. Only started buying ewes at the end of 2015 so had very small number on census. If there's a minimum no. required, I might not qualify.

I'd ask Teagasc but I'm not renewing my subscription with them :-)

Might be more info in the Journal in the next few weeks (cheaper than Teagasc and you get very similar info from both)

ganmo

Will everyone be signed up to this automatically? It's meant to start this Jan and I've heard nothing about it

paddysdream

ganmo wrote: »

Will everyone be signed up to this automatically? It's meant to start this Jan and I've heard nothing about it

Think you will need to sign up to this as you have to commit to the measures in the scheme.Thought it wasn't gonna start till May/June as EU haven't fully signed off on it yet.
Think we are "promised" payment in calender year 2017.No commitment as to how long it will run yet either I think.

orm0nd

Closing date is 31st January

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/e25m-sheep-welfare-scheme-application-forms-to-issue-to-farmers-shortly

BannerBarry

The scheme is a godsend but did the Minister ever mention when they would pay out on the scheme for successful applicants?

Hobs

Hi all, Father only had 18 average in census reference years.
I've since increased ewes to 75 this year. Kept most ewe lambs as breeding ewes last two years.
Sheep suit me better with full time job so have cut back with cattle numbers.

Anyways we added my name this year as joint herd number, would this class me as a new entrant with new herd number?
Or is scheme not worth joining in my case.
Thanks all for replies and all info supplied on sheep forum.

Green farmer

Lads, can we submit the application form ourselves, or is the department going to make us go through advisor for scheme ?

Sheep breeder

BannerBarry wrote: »

The scheme is a godsend but did the Minister ever mention when they would pay out on the scheme for successful applicants?

The scheme is far from a godsend @ 10 euros a ewe, with extra paperwork and inspection and a quota to maintain and more than likely teagasc and sheep ireland to get a bit of the pie.
Average flock of 100 ewes 1000 euro won't in courage too many people to keep sheep, go to any mart and look at the age profile of the sheep farmer and how many will be there in 5 to 10 years and how many will come in to replace them at the price of sheep now,

roosky

Sheep breeder wrote:

The scheme is far from a godsend @ 10 euros a ewe, with extra paperwork and inspection and a quota to maintain and more than likely teagasc and sheep ireland to get a bit of the pie. Average flock of 100 ewes 1000 euro won't in courage too many people to keep sheep, go to any mart and look at the age profile of the sheep farmer and how many will be there in 5 to 10 years and how many will come in to replace them at the price of sheep now,

I dont know how much money you make but a 1000 euro would be a welcome addition to my bottom line.... there will be minimal paper work, what quota?, why would teagasc or sheep ireland get ur money? ...... i think you being a bit drastic, its christmas week ! Also age profile at mart is not representitive cos only auld lads have time for standing round marts

BannerBarry

Sheep breeder wrote: »

The scheme is far from a godsend @ 10 euros a ewe, with extra paperwork and inspection and a quota to maintain and more than likely teagasc and sheep ireland to get a bit of the pie.
Average flock of 100 ewes 1000 euro won't in courage too many people to keep sheep, go to any mart and look at the age profile of the sheep farmer and how many will be there in 5 to 10 years and how many will come in to replace them at the price of sheep now,

To me it's a good step in the right direction.. its long overdue ... its fixed income annually .... not based on market prices and Larry humour etc.

I am at the younger end of the sheep mart age scale and have over 300 sheep so €3000 to me is more than I have made in the last 2 years on the sheep side of the farm.
If there is a fixed income like this younger farmers will follow.. especially those with off farm jobs.

paddysdream

roosky wrote: »

I dont know how much money you make but a 1000 euro would be a welcome addition to my bottom line.... there will be minimal paper work, what quota?, why would teagasc or sheep ireland get ur money? ...... i think you being a bit drastic, its christmas week ! Also age profile at mart is not representitive cos only auld lads have time for standing round marts

Money is money and anything extra is a bonus.But regarding the age profile he is correct.Think the average sheep farmer is almost 60.

Buford T. Justice XIX

paddysdream wrote: »

Money is money and anything extra is a bonus.But regarding the age profile he is correct.Think the average sheep farmer is almost 60.

I think the average age of farmers is 61 atm. And there are more farmers over 80 than under 35 iirc.

MayoAreMagic

Anyone know why 'Meal feeding lambs post-weaning' and 'Mineral supplementation lambs pre-weaning' both have an asterisk (*) after them in the table of actions for this scheme?

paddysdream

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Anyone know why 'Meal feeding lambs post-weaning' and 'Mineral supplementation lambs pre-weaning' both have an asterisk (*) after them in the table of actions for this scheme?

Are they for hill sheep only?

MayoAreMagic

paddysdream wrote: »

Are they for hill sheep only?

Well they are already in the hill flock section, so why would they need an asterisk? Plus the flystrike action is a lowland only option, and there is no indicator on that... So I would be surprised if that is it, but maybe you are right.

roosky

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I think the average age of farmers is 61 atm. And there are more farmers over 80 than under 35 iirc.

It is on paper, but there is a huge amount of people that are farming under a parents herd number such as myself where the person running the flock is a lot younger than the name on the deeds to the land and farm which is what the figures come from.

Teagasc had a survey of 720 sheep farmers and the average farmer age there turned out to be 48 years old

charolais0153

I would say it'd be about 55 or so

roosky

charolais0153 wrote: »

I would say it'd be about 55 or so

Oh dont get me wrong the Average age is high alright but its not as bad as people let on, there is a lot of young lads and lassies very interested in sheep, especially when the beef side of things is going so bad!

charolais0153

roosky wrote: »

Oh dont get me wrong the Average age is high alright but its not as bad as people let on, there is a lot of young lads and lassies very interested in sheep, especially when the beef side of things is going so bad!

True but in my ag science class in school we have to do a project on one type of livestock .pigs , cattle,dairy,sheep etc I asked the lads that have an interest and sheep and they all said cattle. I was surprised of I'm honest. I'll probably do the sheep myself

rangler1

roosky wrote: »

Oh dont get me wrong the Average age is high alright but its not as bad as people let on, there is a lot of young lads and lassies very interested in sheep, especially when the beef side of things is going so bad!

I'm nearer to 65 and the sheep suit me better than cattle, they;re not as fast as cattle or as strong either.....dogs do most of the running,
We've 400 in now and they take less than 2 hrs to feed including the 150 that's out wintered and that's it for the day,
Alright it'll be busy in march april and then back to 2 days/week for the summer, so unless you get bad health, there's no reason to quit

Just edited to say that doesn't mean I wouldn't quit if i found a different 'hobby'

BannerBarry

rangler1 wrote: »

I'm nearer to 65 and the sheep suit me better than cattle, they;re not as fast as cattle or as strong either.....dogs do most of the running,
We've 400 in now and they take less than 2 hrs to feed including the 150 that's out wintered and that's it for the day,
Alright it'll be busy in march april and then back to 2 days/week for the summer, so unless you get bad health, there's no reason to quit

Just edited to say that doesn't mean I wouldn't quit if i found a different 'hobby'

If Minister Creed announced a €10 per can reduction in the price of Terramycin I think it would put more money in my pocket... without the footrot the sheep would be very easy care compared to cattle.

sheepfarmer92

Im 24 and farming with my father who is 69, around here there are only round 3 people my age who will probably farm some sheep in the future, thats in an area ofsay ten square miles, when i was in ag collage, all they talked about was dairying, and how drystock is unprofitable no wonder not many young lads dont want to farm sheep, if ye listened to some if the things our sheep lecturer told us, you would be gone bust!

roosky

sheepfarmer92 wrote: »

Im 24 and farming with my father who is 69, around here there are only round 3 people my age who will probably farm some sheep in the future, thats in an area ofsay ten square miles, when i was in ag collage, all they talked about was dairying, and how drystock is unprofitable no wonder not many young lads dont want to farm sheep, if ye listened to some if the things our sheep lecturer told us, you would be gone bust!

Its the reality but dairy isn't always and option, and for me at least sheep is teh second best option!

rangler1

BannerBarry wrote: »

If Minister Creed announced a €10 per can reduction in the price of Terramycin I think it would put more money in my pocket... without the footrot the sheep would be very easy care compared to cattle.

Footrot is very infectious
We never have footrot here, but I need 150 replacement ewe lambs here every year and if we were buying them in instead of breeding them we'd have every disease and foot ailment as well.
Last time I bought in much sheep I had scab and enzootic abortion introduced into the flock, so avoid buying in now