Telegraph Investigations Megathread - Sam Allardyce resigns as England Manager

Unearthly

CSF wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with all the untenable shouts being thrown around. If the FA decide to just warn him about his future conduct instead of sacking him, I don't think it's going to affect him as manager going forward. Wins a few games and the media are off his back.

He may well wriggle out of this. All depends on whether the FA are willing to absorb this PR disaster.

It's the 400k bribe part which is the killer. 400k to give advice in how to circumvent rules. Can't see him surviving it

BorneTobyWilde

“FA are all about making money aren’t they? You know the FA’s the richest football association in the world? Well, I shouldn’t say that. They’re not the richest at all. What they do is they have the biggest turnover in the world with £325 million.They stupidly spent £870 million on Wembley, so they’re still paying that debt off. If they’d built it anywhere else, it would have cost about £400 million. Most of the money the FA makes will go to the interest on the debt.”

siblers

StringerBell wrote: »

The editing after it is a bit off putting though

"Sam has a pop at indecisive Woy"

"Sam takes aim at Gary Neville"

Both instances were pretty spot on if you listen to what he says, or at the very least reasonable. Roy and Gary arguing for 10 minutes over a sub? No, I'm the manager, sit the **** down and shut up Gary is pretty appropriate.

The getting around third party rules etc is enough of a story without resorting to gutter journalism imo.

That really annoyed me about the article, if I was an England fan, they are the things I'd want Big Sam to be saying about the previous English regime.

TheTownie

https://twitter.com/JOE_co_uk/status/780532201167392769

Iused2likebusts

The 400k may explains his dancing in marbella episode.

Ludo

callaway92 wrote: »

He'll prob resign though.

Can't see that happening.

Mr.Nice Guy

Uh oh, Sky Sports News now breaking out the yellow bar for Big Sam.

Guy:Incognito

"hey lads, we havent done the fake sheik thing in about 3 months, lets give it a go on the England manager"

"dont be a gob****e, no one will fall for that crap again"

"**** it, lets do it for a laugh then us and Sam can have a beer and a giggle after 5 mins when he figures it out".........................

UnitedIrishman

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Uh oh, Sky Sports News now breaking out the yellow bar for Big Sam.

They'll probably open a dedicated channel for it.

mikeym

Its all about the money.

greendom

He's a gonner.

No way will he survive this. In club football it would be pretty untenable but as manager of England absolutely impossible! The FA just can't be seen turning a blind eye to it.

~Rebel~

I'm no fan of Sam, but christ I hate this form of "journalism".

It's not even the sting aspect, it's the gutter presentation of the details. What the **** have Sam's private thoughts on Roy and Neville got to do with anything? it's just there to sensationalize things - if your story is good enough, and solid enough, it's much better off without the scummy sidelines.

Their little thing of "mocking Roy's voice", when not 3 months ago they printed this;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/28/euro-2016-punditwatch-humiliating-embarrassing--and-that-was-jus/

When Woy Hodgson praised the players during his resignation speech, the passionate Wright came straight back with “No, they haven’t been fantastic”.

I hate this holier than though approach from people who are absolutely no better than their target.

As for the actual facts of it - I'm not sure the bulk of it is actually that bad. The money he's being paid as far as I can tell, is to deliver a keynote speech about football in order to bring investors to the conference. he seems pretty clear that he won't be advising or be linked with advising in any way on players. He's just there to get them in the room, and have a few sociable pints afterwards. It's not something an international manager should really be doing, but nor do I think it's really that bad. Something that should be kept for post-retirement to be sure though.

The worst part of it really is when he's talking about getting around 3rd party ownership, but even then he's saying it's possible, and people do it. He's not admitting he does it, and the only example of him buying a previously 3rd party player was Enar Valencia, whose contract they bought outright taking over all entire ownership, which is perfectly fine. So, on the negative side, the fact he's talking at all about this stuff isn't great, BUT, he's in a casual environment and is asked if something goes on, to which he being an industry insider admits it does with other people.

I dunno...it's embarrassing, but below the grimy gutter press surface, i'm not sure really how much is there. It shows he's a bit greedy and opportunistic, but is that news?

If i'm picking some of this up wrong, let me know though.

kippy

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

doesn't look good for big sam, however i thought a journalists job was to report on stories. not create a story by entrapping someone?

he may get sacked but surly this form of journalism needs to be questioned?

Sometimes, when you cannot get proof that a person is up to no good, you have to manufacture a scenario to see how the person would behave in that scenario.
I wouldn't call this entrapment or indeed the creation of a story.
Due to libel laws as they are now it is damn near impossible to get enough proof to verify hersay and rumours.

Paully D

CSF wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with all the untenable shouts being thrown around. If the FA decide to just warn him about his future conduct instead of sacking him, I don't think it's going to affect him as manager going forward. Wins a few games and the media are off his back.

He may well wriggle out of this. All depends on whether the FA are willing to absorb this PR disaster.

The same organisation who ran an investigation not yet 10 years ago, but yet appointed him anyway in 2016 despite the results of their own previous investigation implicating him, are not going to sack him, especially not when he has barely been in the job for 2 months (it may be a bit different if he'd been in the job a while and had racked up a few poor results) IMO.

One of the most surprising things for me is how the likes of Panorama and the aforementioned investigation wasn't all over the papers etc when he was first strongly linked to the job in July. I literally can't remember reading one article in a reputable paper or news site which brought it up. It was like it never happened. Strange.

ben.schlomo

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I'm no fan of Sam, but christ I hate this form of "journalism".

It's not even the sting aspect, it's the gutter presentation of the details. What the **** have Sam's private thoughts on Roy and Neville got to do with anything? it's just there to sensationalize things - if your story is good enough, and solid enough, it's much better off without the scummy sidelines.

Their little thing of "mocking Roy's voice", when not 3 months ago they printed this;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/28/euro-2016-punditwatch-humiliating-embarrassing--and-that-was-jus/

When Woy Hodgson praised the players during his resignation speech, the passionate Wright came straight back with “No, they haven’t been fantastic”.

I hate this holier than though approach from people who are absolutely no better than their target.

As for the actual facts of it - I'm not sure the bulk of it is actually that bad. The money he's being paid as far as I can tell, is to deliver a keynote speech about football in order to bring investors to the conference. he seems pretty clear that he won't be advising or be linked with advising in any way on players. He's just there to get them in the room, and have a few sociable pints afterwards. It's not something an international manager should really be doing, but nor do I think it's really that bad. Something that should be kept for post-retirement to be sure though.

The worst part of it really is when he's talking about getting around 3rd party ownership, but even then he's saying it's possible, and people do it. He's not admitting he does it, and the only example of him buying a previously 3rd party player was Enar Valencia, whose contract they bought outright taking over all entire ownership, which is perfectly fine. So, on the negative side, the fact he's talking at all about this stuff isn't great, BUT, he's in a casual environment and is asked if something goes on, to which he being an industry insider admits it does with other people.

I dunno...it's embarrassing, but below the grimy gutter press surface, i'm not sure really how much is there.

A reasoned take on the thing but i think the FA may just run a mile from it, especially given the recent culture of corruption at Fifa and UEFA etc.

Paully D

greendom wrote: »

He's a gonner.

No way will he survive this. In club football it would be pretty untenable but as manager of England absolutely impossible! The FA just can't be seen turning a blind eye to it.

The FA appointed him despite having first hand experience of his past form when it comes to this sort of stuff. They completely turned a blind eye to it only 2 months ago in making him their manager.

kippy

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I'm no fan of Sam, but christ I hate this form of "journalism".

It's not even the sting aspect, it's the gutter presentation of the details. What the **** have Sam's private thoughts on Roy and Neville got to do with anything? it's just there to sensationalize things - if your story is good enough, and solid enough, it's much better off without the scummy sidelines.

Their little thing of "mocking Roy's voice", when not 3 months ago they printed this;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/28/euro-2016-punditwatch-humiliating-embarrassing--and-that-was-jus/

When Woy Hodgson praised the players during his resignation speech, the passionate Wright came straight back with “No, they haven’t been fantastic”.

I hate this holier than though approach from people who are absolutely no better than their target.

As for the actual facts of it - I'm not sure the bulk of it is actually that bad. The money he's being paid as far as I can tell, is to deliver a keynote speech about football in order to bring investors to the conference. he seems pretty clear that he won't be advising or be linked with advising in any way on players. He's just there to get them in the room, and have a few sociable pints afterwards. It's not something an international manager should really be doing, but nor do I think it's really that bad. Something that should be kept for post-retirement to be sure though.

The worst part of it really is when he's talking about getting around 3rd party ownership, but even then he's saying it's possible, and people do it. He's not admitting he does it, and the only example of him buying a previously 3rd party player was Enar Valencia, whose contract they bought outright taking over all entire ownership, which is perfectly fine. So, on the negative side, the fact he's talking at all about this stuff isn't great, BUT, he's in a casual environment and is asked if something goes on, to which he being an industry insider admits it does with other people.

I dunno...it's embarrassing, but below the grimy gutter press surface, i'm not sure really how much is there. It shows he's a bit greedy and opportunistic, but is that news?

If i'm picking some of this up wrong, let me know though.

Football is rife for the kind of stuff these reporters are trying to uncover and I have little doubt that corruption and brown envelopes are all over the place with people skirting in and out of legality on a regular basis. The figures are too large for this not be be the case.
While the quality of journalism can be questioned, what it is trying to uncover cannot.

TheTownie

Henry Winter;

Henry Winter ‏@henrywinter 17m17 minutes ago
Talked to a few FA people tonight. Allardyce is in for a painful inquisition starting properly tomorrow. Touch and go whether he survives.

ricero

Blatter

Not surprised by this at all.

He's been linked to corruption throughout his career. The bung investigation, the Ravel Morrison agent story, the Steve Kean comments (he called Allardyce a 'crook' and was sued over it)

The FA would have known all this though. They will of course only care now that he's been caught.

Blatter

TheTownie wrote: »

Henry Winter;

I'll be astonished if he survives this. It's just way too dodgy to be able to put a 'he didn't really do anything wrong' spin on it. When you double it up with the unprofessional and nasty 'Woy' comment, I don't think there's any coming back.

Chancer3001

He didnt actually say anything that bad or do anything that bad.

When it comes to bungs he said no no bo absolutely not

Pretty clean really.

He asked for 100k to fly to Singapore for a talk. Why not? He's a millionaire...not gonna go for cheap.

Slagging woy and nev...it was very very minimal stuff. Barely even qualifies as banter

TheTownie

Martyn Ziegler;

Martyn Ziegler ‏@martynziegler 23m23 minutes ago
FA chairman tells me time to "take a deep breath" as launches investigation into BigSamgate. And it's a lot more serious than this:

Blatter

Chancer3001 wrote: »

He didnt actually say anything that bad or do anything that bad.

When it comes to bungs he said no no bo absolutely not

Pretty clean really.

He asked for 100k to fly to Singapore for a talk. Why not? He's a millionaire...not gonna go for cheap.

Slagging woy and nev...it was very very minimal stuff. Barely even qualifies as banter

He thought he was advising investors as to how to circumvent FA rules regarding third party ownership and accepted money from said investors.

Clean as a whistle alright...

Arghus

He could go but I think he could easily survive. The media help to annoint him England manager only a few weeks ago, he's got plenty of friends, a brass neck and I think issues of people taking somewhat dubious money are kinda abstract in a lot of football fans minds, whether it's right or wrong many couldn't care less, and can be swept under the carpet or blow over. It's more embarrassing than anything for him. Allegations about him have circulated for years, and yet his career has only got bigger: he has an ability to survive, when others would get a P45.

It all depends if the story catches fire properly of course, but I don't think he's a certain goner: not at all.

The manner in which the story was manufactured is a bit grubby though - making the news, rather than reporting on it.

StringerBell

Ah ffs I hate the way gate gets slapped on to everything these days

#gategate
#ohsooriginalgate
#dickheadgate

Feels like I have gotten a break from them, all coming flooding back with this one you can be sure in big neon lights

BorneTobyWilde

There is more to come. This is just a teaser, I can imagine it gets much worse for him.
Should of gave job to Bentiez to begin with .

TheTownie

StringerBell wrote: »

Ah ffs I hate the way gate gets slapped on to everything these days

#gategate
#ohsooriginalgate
#dickheadgate

Feels like I have gotten a break from them, all coming flooding back with this one you can be sure in big neon lights

#StringerBellgate

Billy86

What happened to all the "good, decent, honest Sam deserves the spot" talk from only a few weeks ago?

~Rebel~

Blatter wrote: »

He thought he was advising investors as to how to circumvent FA rules regarding third party ownership and accepted money from said investors.

Clean as a whistle alright...

That's really not what it sounds like though...that's the spin the Telegraph are pushing towards, but in the actual videos and in his quoted pieces, he's directly saying the opposite - that he'll only be there to do the keynote and talk about football, and have a casual pint afterwards, and won't be in a position where he's advising anyone on anything - just being there to get them in the door. That's its a loose relationship, which he'll check out with the powers that be, but should be fine. And down the line after he's finished working with the FA, they could have a more advisory relationship.

On the third party stuff, thats the worse bit alright, but there was nothing actively implicating him in what he actually said. He's asked direct questions and says "yeah, there's definitely ways around it" and mentions a bunch of names of lads who do it. Again, it's grotty, but it's nothing we don't know. It's like being asked if there's a way around speed traps, and pointing out that there are websites that keep updated with that info, without saying you ever use them. He has inside info, and says he knows it done, but isn't ever saying he's ever done it, or that he'll ever help them do it.

There may well be more to come, but just judging from the information we actually have so far.

Potential Underachiever

StringerBell wrote: »

Ah ffs I hate the way gate gets slapped on to everything these days

#gategate
#ohsooriginalgate
#dickheadgate

Feels like I have gotten a break from them, all coming flooding back with this one you can be sure in big neon lights

K-9

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's a bit meh tbh.

Funny as hell if he's the one hanged over it, but I'd imagine a lot of FA and probably most if not all PL clubs are corrupt somehow by breaking financial rules, there's too much money there for there not to be an abundance of greed to follow.

Off the ball had a great podcast a few weeks back about agents and managers. An Irish guy who is an established, respected agent in England was complaining about the amount of times a deal is about to be done and a third agent mysteriously appears out of thin air. The deal can't be done unless this "independent" agent gets a share.

Must dig it out tomorrow. (poor choice of words)

Rayne Wooney

K-9 wrote: »

Off the ball had a great podcast a few weeks back about agents and managers. An Irish guy who is an established, respected agent in England was complaining about the amount of times a deal is about to be done and a third agent mysteriously appears out of thin air. The deal can't be done unless this "independent" agent gets a share.

Must dig it out tomorrow. (poor choice of words)

What's to stop a player creating a "company" based around them and having investors in it who happen to get a piece of transfer fees? Nothing I imagine.

The third party rules are a joke like FFP, I read somewhere they did it as it was seen as some kind of slavery which is pretty laughable, the FA trying to position themselves as bastions of clean football.

I'm all for investigative journalism when there is a real cause but they don't come off very well out of this, what'll come out of this information? He wasn't exactly selling secrets to the Russians, did they even tell him beforehand what the consulting was about or did they spring that question on him without prior knowledge?

Talisman

TheTownie wrote: »

Henry Winter;

Winter works for the paper so it's in his interest to talk up the situation. Printed newspapers are dying as a news medium, sensationalising the story with get them more clicks on their website and also boost sales.

The meetings took place over a month ago, yet the people working on the story waited until 12 hours before going to press to send their questions to those involved. They also sent their questions to the FA without providing any context to what was said in the meetings. It doesn't exactly seem like professionalism was a concern on their part, it's the kind of sensational tabloid journalism that the likes of the BBC would get into trouble for.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Just watched the videos, not sure what Allerdyce has done wrong here? Didn't advise anyone on how to circumvent third party ownership of players, outlined he would only work for the 100,000 per day if it was just a meet and greet with investors and deliver a keynote speech, he totally shut down suggestions of players/managers/CEO's taking "bungs"...

So the telegraph deliberately went out to catch big sam up to no good by setting him up... what a wonderful media outlet. IMO they didn't succeed. Its maybe something the England manager shouldn't be getting involved in at the same time but I don't see a whole lot wrong here.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

... also "The Fake Sheikh" thing is only done by scumbag journo's and rags. The telegraph is now as bad as the S*n.

Rag.

Chancer3001

Glad other people see sense and agree he didn't actually say anything that bad.

In fact he looks quite well from it.

Tells then about third party ownership- it happens lads ...

Ah yeah, we know that. Pogbas agent just got 25 million from the latest transfer. Sam didn't say anything remotely bad.
If you think he should be sacked, point to a quote which you think is bad enough to justify that?

Imo there isn't one.

Taking money from investors....well I'm shocked...can you imagine a man doing work for money

Stinks of spite to me.

Somebody on their career path was probably embarrassed or insulted by Sam and they are now attempting to exact revenge. You have to be some piece of work to think this is journalism.

Did Sam actually incriminate himself or did he say he'd have to run it by the powers that be ?

I wouldn't be his biggest fan, although I think he is an excellent manger, but this seems pretty pathetic to me.

You'd think the FA contract would have some clause whereby all the managers dealings would be run by them first. If only to prevent a clash with their own sponsors and associates.

POKERKING

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd think the FA contract would have some clause whereby all the managers dealings would be run by them first. If only to prevent a clash with their own sponsors and associates.

Did he not say he would have to check with FA first?

There has always been something of the night about Allardyce.

Ironically, I was slightly beginning to warm to him since he got the England job. The enthusiasm and joy seemed genuine.

He's got a few questions to answer now though

POKERKING

POKERKING wrote: »

Did he not say he would have to check with FA first?

But even in terms of entering negotiations, you'd think in effect they'd be the agent for the manager.

sReq | uTeK

Deleted User wrote: »

There has always been something of the night about Allardyce.

Ironically, I was slightly beginning to warm to him since he got the England job. The enthusiasm and joy seemed genuine.

He's got a few questions to answer now though

The only question he should be asked is why hasn't he resigned.

It's the equivalent of an employee working in a security firm such as Symantec and taking money from outsiders for telling them how to bypass Symantecs security.

He should be sacked immediately. If the FA want to maintain "ANY" credibility then they will do it asap!

Howard the Duck

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I'm no fan of Sam, but christ I hate this form of "journalism".

It's not even the sting aspect, it's the gutter presentation of the details. What the **** have Sam's private thoughts on Roy and Neville got to do with anything? it's just there to sensationalize things - if your story is good enough, and solid enough, it's much better off without the scummy sidelines.

Their little thing of "mocking Roy's voice", when not 3 months ago they printed this;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/28/euro-2016-punditwatch-humiliating-embarrassing--and-that-was-jus/

When Woy Hodgson praised the players during his resignation speech, the passionate Wright came straight back with “No, they haven’t been fantastic”.

I hate this holier than though approach from people who are absolutely no better than their target.

As for the actual facts of it - I'm not sure the bulk of it is actually that bad. The money he's being paid as far as I can tell, is to deliver a keynote speech about football in order to bring investors to the conference. he seems pretty clear that he won't be advising or be linked with advising in any way on players. He's just there to get them in the room, and have a few sociable pints afterwards. It's not something an international manager should really be doing, but nor do I think it's really that bad. Something that should be kept for post-retirement to be sure though.

The worst part of it really is when he's talking about getting around 3rd party ownership, but even then he's saying it's possible, and people do it. He's not admitting he does it, and the only example of him buying a previously 3rd party player was Enar Valencia, whose contract they bought outright taking over all entire ownership, which is perfectly fine. So, on the negative side, the fact he's talking at all about this stuff isn't great, BUT, he's in a casual environment and is asked if something goes on, to which he being an industry insider admits it does with other people.

I dunno...it's embarrassing, but below the grimy gutter press surface, i'm not sure really how much is there. It shows he's a bit greedy and opportunistic, but is that news?

If i'm picking some of this up wrong, let me know though.

Agree with everything said here. They were probably fuming he turned down their "Sting Coke"

sReq | uTeK

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

The only question he should be asked is why hasn't he resigned.

It's the equivalent of an employee working in a security firm such as Symantec and taking money from outsiders for telling them how to bypass Symantecs security.

He should be sacked immediately. If the FA want to maintain "ANY" credibility then they will do it asap!

The full facts will need to be identified, so I don't think anything is going to happen immediately. But certainly the whole thing appears grubby and sinister.

sReq | uTeK

Deleted User wrote: »

The full facts will need to be identified, so I don't think anything is going to happen immediately. But certainly the whole thing appears grubby and sinister.

I agree, but I'd be doing damage control and sacking him before the rest hits, there is no way the telegraph doesn't have a lot more. They're not going to leave themselves open to liable.

You can be guaranteed them coming out with this story, especially against Sam who is well liked in the media was given the utmost thought.

There is a lot more to come I'd imagine.

with that all said and done, I'm actually a bit annoyed, I liked him and have always thought he did a good honest job (regards his team). I'd have liked to see where he got too.

keeponhurling

He'll freely talk about circumventing FA rules.
Problem is he works for the FA now, and they pay him apparently 3 million for this.
The FA would be right to be very very annoyed by this.

It's probably good that it's early in the Sam's reign. The FA may decide that to take the PR disaster is better than have to restart the whole search for a new manager, doubt there's much appetite for that. Also it's not ideal for the players to have their 3rd manager in the space of a few months.

keeponhurling

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

I knew his appointment would be comedy gold. Just didn't expect it to happen so quickly.

ahlookit

If Allardyce goes then surely the team that appointed him will have some serious questions to answer too? Its not as if his reputation was squeaky clean to begin with. So Ashworth, Glenn and Gill will have a lot of focus on them if they hang Big Sam out to dry.

Time for a safe pair of hands to take over. Step forward 'Arry. All payments will naturally be routed through his dog's bank account.

keeponhurling

ahlookit wrote: »

Time for a safe pair of hands to take over. Step forward 'Arry. All payments will naturally be routed through his dog's bank account.

Hehe, regardless of Sam's fate, I think this episode has ruled out any possibility of Harry ever getting the job