WW2 rifles

bushball

Hi, just wondering as to how, if possible, you woulf go about getting an old rifle like a kar98 or Mosin nagant in Ireland.
I don't know much about the laws so I'm not sure if they are banned but I cant see why a 5 round 100+yo bolt action would be illegal
Cheers

cavan shooter

bushball wrote:

Hi, just wondering as to how, if possible, you woulf go about getting an old rifle like a kar98 or Mosin nagant in Ireland. I don't know much about the laws so I'm not sure if they are banned but I cant see why a 5 round 100+yo bolt action would be illegal Cheers

Contact VCRAI they are shooting them all the time. In fact I'm sure some members are on here.

Vintage Classic Rifle Association of Ireland.

Cass

They are completely legal and regularly licensed here.

The process would be the same as any other rifle. Go to a dealer, find the gun you want, place deposit, apply for license, pay for license, collect gun, shoot.

John Kavanagh in Fingal Sports seems to be the man for classic and vintage stuff. As said above we have some members from the VCRAI on the forum and hopefully they will be along shortly to give you far more details on the firearms.

Tackleberry.

bushball wrote: »

Hi, just wondering as to how, if possible, you woulf go about getting an old rifle like a kar98 or Mosin nagant in Ireland.
I don't know much about the laws so I'm not sure if they are banned but I cant see why a 5 round 100+yo bolt action would be illegal
Cheers

Pat White has a few Vintage classic rifle not to far from ya in Claremorris

bushball

Cheers for all the advice.
Any rough idea on prices, know things like nagants are dead cheap in america but guessing theyre dearer here. And how easy is the ammo to get?

Brasros

bushball wrote:

Cheers for all the advice. Any rough idea on prices, know things like nagants are dead cheap in america but guessing theyre dearer here. And how easy is the ammo to get?

Is it a mosin your looking for get a hold of Fabian Connelly up in Lough Bo, he has/ had some nice ones with a little bit of tlc and elbow will be a great rifle and shooter.

Regarding value of these guns it all depends on the rifle itself, the condition, serial numbers, model, make and collectable.

Brasros

There is a classic rifle shoot on the 23rd of October in An Riocht. There you will see a lot of different service rifle.

deeksofdoom

Brasros wrote: »

There is a classic rifle shoot on the 23rd of October in An Riocht. There you will see a lot of different service rifle.

I wouldn't say there are too many shooting nagants at classic rifle, K31s and Swedish mausers would be more accurate.

Brasros

deeksofdoom wrote:

I wouldn't say there are too many shooting nagants at classic rifle, K31s and Swedish mausers would be more accurate.

There's a few, good shooter as well.😀

Grizzly 45

Considering it was the Soviet Unions and Finlands sniper rifle in ww2 anda favourite re issue war booty by the Wehrmacht as well as being used by all east bloc countries as a sniper rifle upto about the early 1970s...Dont think you need worry too much about Ivans smoke pole and fence post hole digger being inaccurate.Some guy posted on youtube a 1000 yard shooting M N with iron sights recently on a man sized steel plate.Not bad for a 100 year old gun .

deeksofdoom

Aww come off it they were mass produced by the Russians, the bores are off centred to the barrels on most of them. The only decent ones are the finnish ones which were largely rebuilt from leftover Russian rifles after ww1. And as for Russian ammo..... Corrosive ****e that destroyed the barrels.

You'll be lucky to find a good one and if you do you won't be winning any competitions with it.

Grizzly 45

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Aww come off it they were mass produced by the Russians, the bores are off centred to the barrels on most of them. The only decent ones are the finnish ones which were largely rebuilt from leftover Russian rifles after ww1. And as for Russian ammo..... Corrosive ****e that destroyed the barrels.

You'll be lucky to find a good one and if you do you won't be winning any competitions with it.

Ask Igor Valietsiv about that.Hero of the Soviet Union.Killed 295+/-German troops with a bog standard issue MN only difference was his had a 4power scope on it in Stalingrad.As for the Finnish ones.They are copies of the MN and a good few booty rifles from the Soviets disasterous Winter war of 1939 in Finland.The sniper who almost got gunny Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam was a MN user and had killed numerous South Vietnamese and Americans with one.Its a killer and has proably as many kill notches on its stock as the AK in its history by this stage..As for corrosive ammo .Well known with Russian ammo.Thats why the AK bore is chrome lined and Russian cleaning mandated whenever possible to flush the bore with hot water.

tac foley

Any m/39 with a Tikkakoski barrel will shoot well. Look for a stylised woodpecker stamp on the hexagonal Nocks Form and SA [Suomen Armijaa] in a cartouche.

Swiss manufacturer - Schweitzerische Industrie Gesellschaft - SIG, also made barrels. The barrel will have a little hammer stamp on it near the breech - often underneath.

The m/39: nicknamed "Ukko-Pekka" after the former President Pehr Evind Svinhufvud, is a compromise between the Army and White Guard requirments, was adopted so as to standardize Mosin–Nagant production. The m/39 was derived largely from the m/28-30, but included some alterations proposed by the Army. The m/39 also incorporated a semi-pistol grip into the stock, though some early examples used typical Mosin–Nagant straight stocks. Only ten rifles were completed by the end of the Winter War, but 96,800 were produced after the Winter War and used in the Continuation War. Small numbers were assembled from leftover parts in the late 1960s through 1970, bringing the total production to approximately 102,000.

Tikkakoski produced improved, high-quality model 1891/30 rifles in 1943 and 1944, designated m/30, using new barrels and parts from some of the almost 125,000 1891/30s captured in the Winter and Continuation Wars as well as 57,000 rifles bought from the Germans in 1944 (most of which were only suitable for use as parts donors). They were produced with both one- and two-piece stocks and either Soviet globe or Finnish blade foresights.

Again, look for the SA cartouche and hexagonal Nocks form.

Prvi Partizan makes suitable ammunition that is non-corrosive. So does Norma, if you are rich.

tac

deeksofdoom

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ask Igor Valietsiv about that.Hero of the Soviet Union.Killed 295+/-German troops with a bog standard issue MN only difference was his had a 4power scope on it in Stalingrad.As for the Finnish ones.They are copies of the MN and a good few booty rifles from the Soviets disasterous Winter war of 1939 in Finland.The sniper who almost got gunny Carlos Hathcock in Vietnam was a MN user and had killed numerous South Vietnamese and Americans with one.Its a killer and has proably as many kill notches on its stock as the AK in its history by this stage..As for corrosive ammo .Well known with Russian ammo.Thats why the AK bore is chrome lined and Russian cleaning mandated whenever possible to flush the bore with hot water.

No doubt in my mind that they were well capable rifles and had the Aud landed in Ireland with a load of German captures from the eastern front then I probably wouldn't be giving out about them at all.

But I just don't think they measure up to some of the other vintage rifles available.

Chiparus

Would the 7.9 mm k98 be restricted?
Would the 303?

Grizzly 45

deeksofdoom wrote: »

No doubt in my mind that they were well capable rifles and had the Aud landed in Ireland with a load of German captures from the eastern front then I probably wouldn't be giving out about them at all.

But I just don't think they measure up to some of the other vintage rifles available.

That's actually one of the myths about the Aud shipment that they were Nagants.They were mostly recaptured single shot 18 something Mausers from the Russian Imperial army by the Germans from the battles of Tannenberg and at the Masurian lakes.Proably were a few Nagants in there as well,but it was mostly obsolete booty guns and ammo. Sheer bad luck ,and a car accident,and no one with a back up plan to land the shipment screwed us back then.
Oh yeah they are as crude as anything compared to a LE or mauser,but they work and work well.So much so that the gun that was to replace them,the SVT Tokarev semi auto sniper rifle was recalled under direct orders from Stalin as not being up for the job. The whole SVT actually flexes when it is fired.Some exellent youtube videos showing this in ultra slow motion footage:eek:

Grizzly 45

Chiparus wrote: »

Would the 7.9 mm k98 be restricted?
Would the 303?

Yeah that's part of our brilliant gun law here.:rolleyes::rolleyes: the 303 isnt restricted ,the Mauser K 98 is because of its 7.9mm cartridge.Obviously a bigger bullet like the 7.9 is much more dangerous and can punch holes in modern battle tanks at a five mile range.:rolleyes:

tac foley

Interesting indeed, when you remember that the .303 British calibre bullet, originally made for a BP-era rifle, is actually at least .311", and often up to .315" in diameter, depending on the age and manufacturer of the rifle.

And JFI, 7.92mm is 0.3118"..............................

The correlation between big old BP-era calibres and power/velocity is a complex one, with many of the old HUGE calibre BP-era rifle beaten into near-insignificance by modern calibres that are way smaller in diameter, but hugely faster in velocity.

An comparative example is the Mauser cartridge used in the 'Aud' rifles, the 11x60mm Mauser BP cartridge, also known as the .43 Mauser.

That huge 370gr bullet trundles out of the muzzle at 1430 fps, producing just 1680 ft lb of muzzle energy.

The popular .308 Winchester; shooting a 168gr bullet, leaves the muzzle at 2700 fps and produces 2671 ft lbs of muzzle energy.

One is easily obtained, but the other, with far less ballistic performance, but with a historical interest like very few other firearms of the era, is unheard of in the Republic of Ireland.

tac

meathstevie

Wasn't all early center fire ammunition corrosive regardless of who manufactured and used it. Or is it a matter of the USSR producing it more recently than others ?

tac foley

meathstevie wrote: »

Wasn't all early center fire ammunition corrosive regardless of who manufactured and used it. Or is it a matter of the USSR producing it more recently than others ?

All Tsarist-Russian then then Soviet-era military ammunition was corrosive, as was most British stuff, military and civilian, well into the middle of the last century, due to the use of Mercuric priming instead of the later lead stifnate and its eventual replacement by more 'lively' and less corrosive compounds. The Russkies worked on the principle that boiling water was always available to clean out the bore, and so too did the British and the rest of the British Empire/Commonwealth that shot the .303 British cartridge. This includes, of course, the Irish Armed Forces of the time. Modern Russian-produced military ammunition made in Barnaul, or commercial Wolf-brand, is SAID to be non-corrosive, but my advice is to give any gun in which you have shot it a good deal off post-shooting attention. The Barnaul .223, for instance, is VERY suspect in that regard - with apologies to any dealers here who sell it.

The Swiss, by contrast, made the original GP90 ammunition with corrosive priming, but that was changed in 1903 to the GP90/03 round. Its successor, the near-match-grade 7.5x55 GP11, still available today in vast amounts, has always been non-corrosive. GP90/03 has not been made since 1923, and that I've seen in CH is only in a collection.

tac

gunny123

I always fancied a svt40, gewehr 43 or probably the best of the lot an m1 garand. However the way the stupid gunlaws are here in ireland, it makes getting a licence for a semi-auto centrefire a pita to get.

tac foley

Semi-auto centrefires, of which I had eight, including your M1 Garand, have been prohibited firearms here in UK since 1988. You, on the other hand, CAN have them, even if it means a certain amount of hoop-jumping.

Count your blessings, sir.

tac

Grizzly 45

Questionable anymore since last Sept when Frannie brought out the amendments to the legislation.It looks like another grandfathered category,and there has been no reply yet from DOJ whether this will apply to pre 1950 designs as well.Looks like straight pull,pump action or MARS systems for those that want anything resembling a modern rifle here as well.:(

tac foley

tac

gunny123

I am still waiting for the penny to drop with these various ministers, that prohibiting civilian firearms usage, does very little to nil, to deter criminals or terrorists using firearms. There is currently a gang war going on in dublin, much publicised in the mejia, and it has come to light that the minister won't approve or fund more gardai manhours to bring it to an end. If the minister was that concerned about firearm crime, she would do better targetting the rubbish running around murdering people.

Grizzly 45

Hate to use this cliche,but "Fear the government that fears your guns". We see this on a national level and the EU level,and we hear ministers ,politican,,police officers and whatnot say that they KNOW that bans won't stop criminal or terrorist misuse of guns,but insist that banning certain types of guns or restrictions on type or magazine capacity "will make us safer". We have had 35 years of the most strictest gun control in the EU,and did it stop a virtual open civil war or our ongoing crime in our country??
The only thing I can come up with is simply the majority of Western governments do not trust their citizens in any shape or form anymore,but belive we are capable of great harm to ourselves and the state.Least of all with private gun ownership.Ironic that the countries that suffered the most under communist dictatorships in Europe take the concept of democracy a lot more seriously than those that have had it for generations.:(:(

tac foley

Grizzly and all - WE are the 'fish in the barrel' that have our guns strictly controlled by those who have absolutely NO control over illegal guns. Making yet more useless but impressive [to some] lgislation makes Mr Joe Public happy, because he can see that the gubmint is making a real effort to control them wicked guns and stuff.

Here in UK we are now required to list the serial number of the gun that we shoot on the club range. The purpose of this is undoubtedly to ensure that we actually DO use all the guns we may have. For me, and many like me here, that is more than a mere problem, it is a further reduction of what remains of my so-called civil liberties, and is a reminder that gubmint serves more as a means of jerking our chains, that safeguarding the general public from the vast numbers of illegal firearms in this country.

How those many of our club members - about a third of the 340-ish - who shoot over land, and only use the range facilities to sight in their rifles once a year get on with this has yet to be explone. The person tasked with examining our range log will see just one or two entries a year in that case - does that constitute enough 'use' to justify the ownership of a firearm? [shrug]

I have nineteen Section 1 firearms - am I expected to shoot each and every one of them during the year? Who knows?

tac, seriously p*ssed on the other side of the Irish Sea

BattleCorp

tac foley wrote: »

Making yet more useless but impressive [to some] lgislation makes Mr Joe Public happy, because he can see that the gubmint is making a real effort to control them wicked guns and stuff.

The Government and the Gardaí know right well that taking guns off us will do nothing to prevent criminals accessing firearms. It's all for show.

Here in UK we are now required to list the serial number of the gun that we shoot on the club range.

We must record our firearm serial numbers with the club (range) but we don't have to do this every time we use the range.

tac foley

I apologise for thread-drifting, and will try hard not to engage in any form of politicing.

Whinemeal - here is a list of long arms that can reasonably be expected to qualify as having been used in the era of WW2, of the kind that we are all permitted to own. With the exception of the previously-noted semi-autos and ANY model of bolt-action Mauser in German or Austrian service [these are restricted in Irish firearms law] -

1. Any model of Lee-Enfield rifle or carbine [UK and Commonwealth/Empire].

2. Any bolt-action Springfield model '03 [USA].

3. Any model of Swedish Mauser [Sweden - also to include Norway and Denmark].

4. Any model of Carcano, Terni or Mannlicher-Carcano [Italy].

5. Any model of Arisaka [Japan].

6. Any of the bolt-action Mauser derivatives, either licence or German-made, in service with Argentina, Chile, Mexico, Venezuela. All of these are sub-7.92mm calibre. Same deal for Spanish Mausers].

7. Any model of Steyr M95 [Greece, most of the Balkans]

8. Any model of K11 or K31 [Switzerland].

9. Any model of Mosin-Nagant, Soviet or Finnish-built [Soviet Union and Finland].

10. Any model of MAS36 [France and colonies].

That should be enough to be getting on with.

tac

Grolschevik

tac foley wrote:

ANY model of bolt-action Mauser in German or Austrian service [these are restricted in Irish firearms law] -

As a matter of interest, does anyone know why these in particular have been singled out?

tac foley

Yes, see post #18. They are calibre-restricted in Irish law. The German WW1 and 2 service rifles and later carbines [Gew98 and Gew98k] are both 7.92x57 - usually called 8mm Mauser by the lazy.

tac