The Death (Sale) of TNA ?

A Rogue Hobo

Monokne wrote:

In terms of who is foolish, while you can see Corgan has some business savvy, I'm sorry but I'm just not having the idea he doesn't come off a fool here. I've been through this in prior posts, but if you look at in depth, TNA has literally no major income streams and no way of being profitable and he has sunk millions into it. May as well have just set fire to that money.

But this is the thing, I fully believe that Corgan bought in with the full intention of eventually owning the company sooner rather than later. Which, if rumours are to be believed he went about in the cheapest legal way possible, they bailed, he sued.

How is he a fool? He has already publicly said if he buys the company he will rebrand it because as a wrestling fan he knows himself it's a dead brand. I fully believe the Cody Rhodes deal for example where he can perform essentially anywhere whilst being on TNA wouldn't have happened if Corgan wasnt there, he knows that he needs to take advantage of the little mainstream USA Indies that aren't under the WWE umbrella.

I'm not saying he's a genius, I'm not saying he knows how to run any wrestling company, but what I am saying is he knows how to run a business to make a profit. He is a wrestling fan, if it fails spectacularly the fine, but at least give him the chance to run the thing.

leggo

All very good points raised and I can see the argument on both sides.

I think Corgan was led down the garden path here by Dixie, who's ultimately the main fool here and coming across as carney as ****, having led a lot of people the same way by her stubborn refusal to relinquish power. Even now it seems like she still wants TNA to survive and still wants to retain some kind of influence. Any sensible business person would've seen a sinking ship and tried to jump off for as much money as possible a couple years ago while they could.

If Corgan is guilty of anything, it's trusting that Dixie would do things above board, which is fair enough as wrestling does tend to operate in a world unto itself business-wise, bafflingly so at times. In those instances, I feel for the reputable person, not the amateur carney mark who'll run their business (and others' livelihoods) into the ground before admitting there's a problem.

You can see his logic: if you have money and want to be a major player in the wrestling business, you go for the no 2 promotion behind WWE. ROH and NJPW run tight ships and are never going to sell. He saw an opportunity and made his move. The outcome isn't his fault because nobody knew the true outcome until this week, and that's what's likely led to this lawsuit. So calling him a fool because of info we've all just learned (him included) is an ultimate hindsight 20/20 judgement. Like blaming a dude for trusting his girlfriend while she was cheating on him. It probably would've made the most sense for Dixie to sell to him a while back, the problem was she was like a gambling addict trying to recoup their losses and digging the hole deeper, whereas he took her for an honest, decent woman thinking logically.

Again, to me that makes her the fool here, not him. He's just found himself in a mess now with some harsh lessons learned, lessons he really shouldn't have had to have learned because this business can be backwards as **** sometimes.

Monokne

A Rogue Hobo wrote: »

But this is the thing, I fully believe that Corgan bought in with the full intention of eventually owning the company sooner rather than later. Which, if rumours are to be believed he went about in the cheapest legal way possible, they bailed, he sued.

How is he a fool? He has already publicly said if he buys the company he will rebrand it because as a wrestling fan he knows himself it's a dead brand. I fully believe the Cody Rhodes deal for example where he can perform essentially anywhere whilst being on TNA wouldn't have happened if Corgan wasnt there, he knows that he needs to take advantage of the little mainstream USA Indies that aren't under the WWE umbrella.

I'm not saying he's a genius, I'm not saying he knows how to run any wrestling company, but what I am saying is he knows how to run a business to make a profit. He is a wrestling fan, if it fails spectacularly the fine, but at least give him the chance to run the thing.

In my opinion, he is a fool because he is willing to pay a lot of money for a business that cannot make a profit and there is essentially no chance that it ever will.

- Their key TV deals, the only real way they make money, are both in jeopardy due to poor ratings (UK/India)
- There is little to no merch money.
- There is no live gate money.
- There is very little income from their US TV deal, the ratings for which are lower than the channel were hoping for by a country mile.
- They make no money on pay per view.

This is why they are bleeding money and why they are bleeding money.

It is nothing personal against Billy. It's great that he loves wrestling enough to invest in it. It's great that you guys believe he can turn it around, seriously, I love the positivity. But I just look at all the facts above and reach the obvious conclusion that the company is for all intents and purposes dead and cannot be revived.

Monokne

leggo wrote: »

So calling him a fool because of info we've all just learned (him included) is an ultimate hindsight 20/20 judgement. Like blaming a dude for trusting his girlfriend while she was cheating on him.

For clarity, I believe he's a fool for getting in bed with them in the first place. I have sympathy with him for being lied to and led up the garden path. Dixie is also quite clearly a fool but she's also something much more insidious - dishonest.

Lord TSC

I suppose for Billy, the question he has to ask himself is...

"I want to run a wrestling promotion. Is it better to start from absolutely nothing, no contracts, no TV deals, no name recognition of any kind? Or should I buy out TNA, which would come with contracts of a pretty good roster, some TV deals (admittedly on the brink of vanishing), an established home base in Orlando, and some brand recognition, even if it's negative".

Jarrett tried to start GFW from scratch, and it went absolutely nowhere, because despite his experience, he had zero foundations to build on.

Is TNA dying and toxic? Sure. But if Billy had his heart set on getting into the rasslin' business, then I'd personally think he was better trying to take the burning ruins of TNA, trying to put out the fires and see if he can fix it up, as opposed to having to start with absolutely nothing at all. From a business perspective, I can see why he thought it was worth perusing as a venture.

leggo

I'm not saying I agree with his move to invest in TNA, I wouldn't (though I also wouldn't go near running a wrestling promotion either!), I just see what he was going for. Like Lord TSC said above, the slog he would've had starting from scratch would've made it next to impossible. He obviously had a vision and plan with TNA but overestimated his capacity to bring it to life. And it didn't help that, in her desperation for funds, Dixie probably promised him the sun and the moon so he invested on the basis that he would be able to execute said plan. Hence the lawsuit now. The only thing is if she promised him anything that could legally stand up in court. If she didn't then, yeah, it's a bit on him, but he seems to think he can prove she did.

Monokne

Lord TSC wrote: »

I suppose for Billy, the question he has to ask himself is...

"I want to run a wrestling promotion. Is it better to start from absolutely nothing, no contracts, no TV deals, no name recognition of any kind? Or should I buy out TNA, which would come with contracts of a pretty good roster, some TV deals (admittedly on the brink of vanishing), an established home base in Orlando, and some brand recognition, even if it's negative".

Jarrett tried to start GFW from scratch, and it went absolutely nowhere, because despite his experience, he had zero foundations to build on.

Is TNA dying and toxic? Sure. But if Billy had his heart set on getting into the rasslin' business, then I'd personally think he was better trying to take the burning ruins of TNA, trying to put out the fires and see if he can fix it up, as opposed to having to start with absolutely nothing at all. From a business perspective, I can see why he thought it was worth perusing as a venture.

I understand your viewpoint. I do think it's key to mention that Jarrett isn't and will never be $10 million in the hole on GFW, mind you.

Anyway, GFW is thriving. They have that SWEET database AND in my opinion they are the most prestigious indie out there.



#Hanging from the rafters

Chain Smoker

Monokne wrote: »

For clarity, I believe he's a fool for getting in bed with them in the first place. I have sympathy with him for being lied to and led up the garden path. Dixie is also quite clearly a fool but she's also something much more insidious - dishonest.

This is pretty much my stance, but I'd look to stress that of its a battle of foolishness, Billy doesn't hold a candle to dixie.

briany

I'm a bit out of the loop regarding this whole story. Current developments appear to be contradicting earlier reports. For example, I read one story that said WWE had bought the tape library and the rest of the assets would be sold to Corgan for a possible rebrand. Then I read another one that said only part of the library was sold and Corgan was suing the company. Another story stated that TNA had secured funding for the rest of the year, but now the 'walls are closing in'.

I've been heard the reports for a long time, as I'm sure everyone else has, that TNA has been on the edge of oblivion. Given that long-standing situation plus the conflicting reports above, I'm having a little bit of trouble getting a clear picture of the current situation. Anyone care to summarise?

Chain Smoker

The WWE story seems to have been false, and the overall story has shifted from potential buyers to potential lawsuits over unpaid debts.


Meltzer seems to think the details of Corgan's case in particular will become public on Thursday for some reason.

Monokne

TNA owes $3.4 million in debt to Aroluxe Entertainment & Anthem Entertainment(subsidiary of The Fight Network) for money loaned to them to fund TV tapings

TNA owes several million dollars to Billy Corgan for the same reason. Corgan is now suing TNA and Dixie Carter personally. Carter owes him money personally as well as TNA owing him. It is believed the basis of the suit is that Corgan was not informed about the $3.4 million owed to others.

The state of Tennessee has placed a tax lien against the company for an unspecified amount of back taxes that the company hasn't paid.

TNA has sold a part of its library already to Anthem Entertainment so WWE will not be getting the entire thing if they get it.

In short...

TNA is FU<KED.

chopperbyrne

I assume it was Dixie who signed off on selling a partial tape library, thus making the rest of the library significantly less valuable.

She really is a moron.

Feel sorry for the talent and general staff to have such inept leadership.

Monokne

It was Dixie. THose in the know have been very clear - this is ALL Dixie's ****ing mess. And what a ****ing mess it is.

mooonpie

I'm really curious as to how a library like this would be split ... The only way I can think to split it somewhat "cleanly" would be based on a particular era and/or particular programming.

Maybe the all PPVs? Or the early weekly PPVs? Or the weekly show during NWA-TNA? Or the weekly programming from the Impact Wrestling era? etc.

Are there any whispers about what part of the tape library now belongs to Anthem?

Monokne

Nothing has come out on that.

Monokne

Another day, TNA another $300k in the whole:

http://www.f4wonline.com/tna-news/tna-allegedly-owes-more-money-another-lawsuit-unearthed-222991

Looks like they will just have to file for bankruptcy.

Agent Coulson

So who do people think will the WWE pick up from the roster?

Monokne

No one immediately. Galloway, Carter, Lashley and the Hardys are the only ones who'd be of any real value and all have baggage there. I expect the Hardys in within a year though.

Chain Smoker

American Express? Uh, does that mean they're 300k in credit card bills?

Monokne

American Express Travel is a sister company. They're kind of like Expedia.

Lithium93_

Billy Corgan's restraining order states TNA is insolvent

http://wrestlingnews.co/billy-corgans-restraining-order-states-that-tna-is-insolvent/

As demonstrated in the memorandum of law filed herewith, plaintiff is likely to prevail on the merits of its claims because Impact Ventures LLC is insolvent, and, as a result, plaintiff is entitled to exercise controlling voting rights in the company pursuant to an equity pledge agreement between the plaintiff, Ms. Salinas and Impact Ventures. Furthermore, if not enjoined, defendants’ conduct will cause irreparable hard to Plaintiff.

Ball firmly in Billy's court now by the looks of it.

The_Mac

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Billy Corgan's restraining order states TNA is insolvent

http://wrestlingnews.co/billy-corgans-restraining-order-states-that-tna-is-insolvent/



Ball firmly in Billy's court now by the looks of it.

CAN BIG TUNES BILLY SAVE THE DAY

Monokne

Two great TNA stories:

In this weeks Observer, Dave reported that when they were evicted from their office in Cummins Station a while back, they refused to give a forwarding address, so that all the people they owed money too would have the post returned undeliverable, in the hopes they may give up chasing it. TNA apparently thought there was a possibility their business partners would just assume they'd gone bust. Meanwhile they'd continue to air a 2 hour TV show that is available in 60+ million homes! Amazingly, this didn't work.

Bruce Prichard told a fantastic story on this week's 'Something to Wrestle'. He was head of talent relations at TNA for a period. At one point, 5 of the male talent were 5 full weeks behind on pay. They would ordinarily get a weekly cheque but none had. Prichard enquired what was happening with payroll. Payroll sent him proof that the cheques had been cut & they'd been run through the postal machine, insisting the problem must be with the post office. Problem being this was 5 different talent in different parts of the country. Eventually TNA were due for TV tapings and some of the guys said they could not afford to travel (nor even pay for airport parking) until they were paid. Prichard's solution was to tell payroll to cancel all the mysterious cheques that had disappeared, then cut a single cheque for 5 weeks pay and send it FedEx overnight.

At the taping a few days later, a couple guys approached him with their FedEx envelopes. Inside were 5 individual envelopes, each containing a cheque, the envelopes & cheques dated the 5 previous weeks. Payroll had cut the cheques, run them through the postal machine, left them sitting there unsent and lied to Prichad, the head of talent relations!!!! VINTAGE TNA

Blue_Dabadee

I neither understand why they neither stayed small and neutral like ROH. It always thought it was a bad idea moving out of iMPACT zone on a permanent basis and when they went live every week.

rossie1977

Blue_Dabadee wrote: »

I neither understand why they neither stayed small and neutral like ROH. It always thought it was a bad idea moving out of iMPACT zone on a permanent basis and when they went live every week.

Because they were what grew out of the death of wcw and have spent 15 years chasing and trying to pass out WWE. Go listen to the press conference introducing Hogan back in 2009 and it gives you an idea of the tna mindset with regards where they believe their true standing is..a mindset I might add that the tna hardcore fanbase have tried their hardest to foster

sky88

rossie1977 wrote: »

Because they were what grew out of the death of wcw and have spent 15 years chasing and trying to pass out WWE. Go listen to the press conference introducing Hogan back in 2009 and it gives you an idea of the tna mindset with regards where they believe their true standing is..a mindset I might add that the tna hardcore fanbase have tried their hardest to foster

Always found the tna hardcore fans a bit strange as they really wouldn't accept any criticisms about tna at all. probable the opposite to wwe fans as they do everything to criticize.

JohnMc1

sky88 wrote: »

Always found the tna hardcore fans a bit strange as they really wouldn't accept any criticisms about tna at all. probable the opposite to wwe fans as they do everything to criticize.

TNA's fanbase was made up of former WCW fans who were dreaming of a Monday Night Wars 2 and ECW fans that didn't want to support WWE.

beakerjoe

Nonsense. It was made up of wrestling fans that wanted an alternative to WWE. Id say most fans watched both

Monokne

The demographics and viewership patterns are such that it can be said definitively that only a very small portion of TNA's audience was old WCW fans. When WCW died, WWE's ratings did not improve even slightly. That audience just stopped watching wrestling. When TNA & WWE went head to head, TNA lost more than 50% of it's audience. Considering the WCW audience didn't watch WWE from 2001 onwards, it's fair to assume they didn't start watching TNA and then abandon it for WWE when they were on at the same time in 2010.

In terms of demographics, TNA's audience skewed much older than what WCW's would be today. WCW's audience was late 20's/early 30's. TNA's audience has skewed heavily toward people in their 50's and up.

What you can deduce by the 4 months the companies were head to head on Monday in 2010 is that roughly 50% of TNA's fans were just WWE fans who wanted to watch wrestling on Thursdays too. Given the choice of the shows, they were watching Raw, and they weren't even flicking back and forth. The other half million or so were TNA's own hardcores. I would be willing to wager that 80% of the tiny viewership they do still have is still from that half mill.

rossie1977

Having interacted with alot of tna hardcores over the years it clearly obvious to me those that are very vocal online/social media/youtube consist of three groups mostly

1. Former wcw fans. This isn't surprising as tna is what emerged from death of wcw. If wcw hadn't died in 2001 tna would never have existed
2. The newer fans. This is a group that started watching wrestling post January 4th 2010. They are usually hugely positive about current tna (or at least were until problems emerged) and quite negative about tna pre 2010..if they have an opinion.
3. The British fan, obviously grown out of the success of tna on challenge. These might be newer fans or former wwe attitude era fans but they are usually very loyal and very vocal

Now the watching public its a different story of course. Yes demos tell us the audience is over 50 yet couple of years ago demos were telling us smackdown audience was over 50 but when you went to a live taping it was 90% young families and kids whereas raw and ppvs were a more hardcore male 18-39 audience