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Choosing not to vaccinate

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    #62
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Hold on though, how could the possible side effects be listed if it hasn't been properly investigated?

    Did my post not make sense? Sorry. There's no need for the snide comments though ladies. Interesting I didn't give an opinion on vaccines yet I was attacked for explaining regrets position.....

    Merck listed the severe side effects on their PIL. The HSE then decided to only list the mild side effects so when parents gave consent they weren't fully informed.

    The second part of my post was in response to the poster who said there's no medical evidence the vaccine has caused the 400 girls to become ill. It's hard to find evidence without looking.
    I should have multiquoted, my fault.


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    #63
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    mountai wrote: »
    Google REGRET.IE cant do links
    No. Either provide links, or don't claim things.

    Google says that Big Foot is alive.
    notjustsweet wrote: »
    Merck listed the severe side effects on their PIL. The HSE then decided to only list the mild side effects so when parents gave consent they weren't fully informed.
    So... "big pharma" did actually give all the info?


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    #64
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    The second part of my post was in response to the poster who said there's no medical evidence the vaccine has caused the 400 girls to become ill. It's hard to find evidence without looking.
    I should have multiquoted, my fault.
    Please post a link to the findings that these girls got said illnesses because of the vaccine, and didn't get said illness because of their age. Basically causality vs correlation.


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    #65
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    the_syco wrote: »
    No. Either provide links, or don't claim things.

    Google says that Big Foot is alive.


    So... "big pharma" did actually give all the info?

    If you're going to quote me please don't misquote me. Or imply something I didn't say. Thanks.

    I'm just helping clarify something to help the discussion as someone else was making a complete hash of explaining it. I'm not antivaccine at all!!


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    #66
    sullivlo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    the_syco wrote: »
    Please post a link to the findings that these girls got said illnesses because of the vaccine, and didn't get said illness because of their age. Basically causality vs correlation.

    Careful. People don't like being asked to provide links to their hypothesis.

    Sure look at all the people that asked Maggie to provide links and there's radio silence. Yet she managed to thank the post of Zoe that said she didn't vaccinate her kids.


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    #67
    Maggie007
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Maggie007


    sullivlo wrote: »
    I'll just take my PhD in immunology (& current job in vaccine development) and be in my merry way so. I best leave the country if I'm gonna be out of a job soon! Given that so many people don't want to vaccinate.

    Look up herd immunity.
    The entire premise for vaccination compliance is based on the myth of "herd immunity". Herd immunity is a term used to describe a situation where an outbreak from an illness in a community is followed by natural immunity. When 65% of the community (herd) acquires the illness, the rest of the community becomes protected.
    Vaccine induced herd immunity is a myth borrowed from true, naturally acquired herd immunity. It only exists in theory, not reality. It's believed that approximately 95% (not 65%) of the community needs to be vaccinated in order to achieve herd immunity. We have *never* had 95% compliance, not even 65% complaince, yet where are all the deadly outbreaks?? THEY DON'T EXIST. Ironically, the only places we see outbreaks are in highly vaccinated communities such as schools. Students are required to be vaccinated, but the rest of the community is not. Therefore, the adult community is largely unvaccinated, as they are not not up-to-date on their vaccine boosters. So there is not even the possibility of herd immunity even taking place. Yet, this is the reasoning behind vaccine compliance, to protect the herd.
    Not only is the herd not protected, but either are the vaccinated. Live viruses and bacteria from vaccines shed/spread and infect others. The additives used in vaccines are highly toxic, and are purposely used to trigger an immune response in the body. But as the body works to fight off these foreign matters, suppression from fever/pain reducers etc takes place and causes an autoimmune response. Thus, the exponentially growing number of chronically ill children in our country. Asthma, diabetes, food allergies, ear infections, learning disorders, cancers etc are at a historical high. We have traded mild childhood illness for life-long health problems.
    If we stick to natural immunity, acquired from mild childhood illnesses, without the added toxins from vaccines, we'd be *much* better. We no longer live in the dark ages. With access to clean water and proper sanitation, proper diet and nutrition, we simply don't have the need for concern like we used to. Our bodies' immune systems are powerful gifts, when properly cared for. Synthetic, untested and dangerous medicine isn't the answer.
    Not to mention...almost all adults born before 1986 in the US did not receive hep a, hep b, rotavirus, varicella, pneumococcal, meningococcal, or hib vaccines. adults over the age of 30 make up about 65% of the population. almost all adults aren't vaccinated for many of the diseases children are vaccinated for, yet, adults are not experiencing epidemics of these diseases, nor are they spreading them to their children. with 65% of the population not vaccinated for 7 diseases, how can there ever be VACCINE-derived herd immunity as it's been defined? and things like typhoid & scarlet fever, and croup have declined right along with all the other diseases we vaccinate for...yet there's never been a vaccine for those diseases.


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    #68
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    sullivlo wrote: »
    Careful. People don't like being asked to provide links to their hypothesis.

    Sure look at all the people that asked Maggie to provide links and there's radio silence. Yet she managed to thank the post of Zoe that said she didn't vaccinate her kids.

    It wasn't that poster's hypothesis so yeah of course they don't like being asked to provide links when they were only clarifying something on behalf of another poster.


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    #69
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Maggie007 wrote: »
    The entire premise for vaccination compliance is based on the myth of "herd immunity". Herd immunity is a term used to describe a situation where an outbreak from an illness in a community is followed by natural immunity. When 65% of the community (herd) acquires the illness, the rest of the community becomes protected.
    Vaccine induced herd immunity is a myth borrowed from true, naturally acquired herd immunity. It only exists in theory, not reality. It's believed that approximately 95% (not 65%) of the community needs to be vaccinated in order to achieve herd immunity. We have *never* had 95% compliance, not even 65% complaince, yet where are all the deadly outbreaks?? THEY DON'T EXIST. Ironically, the only places we see outbreaks are in highly vaccinated communities such as schools. Students are required to be vaccinated, but the rest of the community is not. Therefore, the adult community is largely unvaccinated, as they are not not up-to-date on their vaccine boosters. So there is not even the possibility of herd immunity even taking place. Yet, this is the reasoning behind vaccine compliance, to protect the herd.
    Not only is the herd not protected, but either are the vaccinated. Live viruses and bacteria from vaccines shed/spread and infect others. The additives used in vaccines are highly toxic, and are purposely used to trigger an immune response in the body. But as the body works to fight off these foreign matters, suppression from fever/pain reducers etc takes place and causes an autoimmune response. Thus, the exponentially growing number of chronically ill children in our country. Asthma, diabetes, food allergies, ear infections, learning disorders, cancers etc are at a historical high. We have traded mild childhood illness for life-long health problems.
    If we stick to natural immunity, acquired from mild childhood illnesses, without the added toxins from vaccines, we'd be *much* better. We no longer live in the dark ages. With access to clean water and proper sanitation, proper diet and nutrition, we simply don't have the need for concern like we used to. Our bodies' immune systems are powerful gifts, when properly cared for. Synthetic, untested and dangerous medicine isn't the answer.
    Not to mention...almost all adults born before 1986 in the US did not receive hep a, hep b, rotavirus, varicella, pneumococcal, meningococcal, or hib vaccines. adults over the age of 30 make up about 65% of the population. almost all adults aren't vaccinated for many of the diseases children are vaccinated for, yet, adults are not experiencing epidemics of these diseases, nor are they spreading them to their children. with 65% of the population not vaccinated for 7 diseases, how can there ever be VACCINE-derived herd immunity as it's been defined? and things like typhoid & scarlet fever, and croup have declined right along with all the other diseases we vaccinate for...yet there's never been a vaccine for those diseases.

    Have you just reposted the same nonsense you posted previously that you were asked to provide credible links for?


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    #70
    Maggie007
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Maggie007


    sullivlo wrote: »
    Don't suppose you would like to provide the link that you copied and pasted the entire block of text from?

    Or if, on the off chance that you did write it, could you provide references for any of the claims that you have made? I'm bolding some bits that I am particularly interested in.

    Particularly the link to vaccines and childhood cancers.
    you give me a link to a study which shows the immunity levels of vaccinated children vs the unvaccinated... Oh wait there isnt one.


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    #71
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    the_syco wrote: »
    Please post a link to the findings that these girls got said illnesses because of the vaccine, and didn't get said illness because of their age. Basically causality vs correlation.

    You've quoted a post where I specifically said there's no evidence until someone looks for it to ask me for evidence. That's bizarre.


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    #72
    sullivlo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Tasden wrote: »
    It wasn't that poster's hypothesis so yeah of course they don't like being asked to provide links when they were only clarifying something on behalf of another poster.

    Yes. Which is why I didn't reference notthatsweet in the post, I referenced maggie, who has since reposted the same drivel sans references.


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    #73
    nkav86
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭nkav86


    Stheno wrote:
    Have you just reposted the same nonsense you posted previously that you were asked to provide credible links for?


    How do I thank this twice? I'd be very interested to have links just so I can give the other side a fair shout, surely OP you wouldn't mind sharing?


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    #74
    sullivlo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Maggie007 wrote: »
    you give me a link to a study which shows the immunity levels of vaccinated children vs the unvaccinated... Oh wait there isnt one.

    You first ;)


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    #75
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    sullivlo wrote: »
    Yes. Which is why I didn't reference notthatsweet in the post, I referenced maggie, who has since reposted the same drivel sans references.

    You quoted the post where he asked said poster to provide links!


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    #76
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Maggie007 wrote: »
    sullivlo wrote: »
    Don't suppose you would like to provide the link that you copied and pasted the entire block of text from?

    Or if, on the off chance that you did write it, could you provide references for any of the claims that you have made? I'm bolding some bits that I am particularly interested in.

    Particularly the link to vaccines and childhood cancers.
    you give me a link to a study which shows the immunity levels of vaccinated children vs the unvaccinated... Oh wait there isnt one.

    I'm on the app but a quick googles shows hundreds of peer reviewed articles the first one being about measles in kids in Africa http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673698023642


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    #77
    Maggie007
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Maggie007


    sullivlo wrote: »
    You called people on the thread morons - if that doesn't classify as abuse I don't know what is.

    Nobody is abusing you. People are querying your decisions as there is an absolutely overwhelming amount of evidence FOR vaccination.

    You might think that vaccination is a ploy for big pharma. But really it isn't. My job currently is to produce a more effective vaccine for whooping cough because the one that was developed requires a thing called an adjuvant. The aim of my work is to remove the adjuvant and increase the efficacy of the vaccine. Not because the adjuvant is dangerous or unsafe, but to optimise the activity as the adjuvant can initiate a different response.

    Note I say different - not always bad.

    I have seen first hand the devesation caused by not vaccinating. I had a family member lose his legs because of polio. I had a good friend develop encephalitis from polio and now he is so brain damaged he can't live alone.

    I'm not trying to abuse you, I'm just trying to present the facts that it's overwhelmingly safer to vaccinate than to not.
    I didnt come here to discuss my choice or to seek advice whether i should vaccinate, i simply asked a parent who stated she want vaccinating for advice in reg to school regulations and ppl started telling me to go to idiot.com and that i was a bad parent to me thats abuse so i called them a moran in return


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    #78
    secondrowgal
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭secondrowgal


    the_syco wrote: »
    Please post a link to the findings that these girls got said illnesses because of the vaccine, and didn't get said illness because of their age. Basically causality vs correlation.

    I haven't seen any and here is a link to say exactly the opposite: (PRAC is the European Committee that investigates all adverse reactions to all medicines in the EU and also takes into account global data)

    "The PRAC concluded that the available evidence does not support that CRPS and POTS are caused by HPV vaccines. Therefore there is no reason to change the way the vaccines are used or amend the current product information."


    http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/news_and_events/news/2015/11/news_detail_002429.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1

    http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/medicines/human/referrals/Human_papillomavirus_vaccines/human_referral_prac_000053.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac05805c516f

    I appreciate that the above links are quite scientifically worded, but surely this is exactly what you want when you are looking for proof for/against something? Informed, scientific, reasoned argument based on the facts.


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    #79
    Anne_cordelia
    Registered Users Posts: 446 ✭✭Anne_cordelia


    I'm not anti vaccine and my child is vaccinated against all the normal diseases. However I won't be getting the chicken pox or rotavirus vaccinations as I think the severity of the illness isn't enough to warrant the risk of the vaccine.


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    #80
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    notjustsweet wrote: »
    You've quoted a post where I specifically said there's no evidence until someone looks for it to ask me for evidence. That's bizarre.
    Ah. Without quoting the post that you were replying to, it seemed you were stating it. Quotes are your friend.


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    #81
    Stone Deaf 4evr
    Registered Users Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭Stone Deaf 4evr


    Maggie007 wrote: »
    I didnt come here to discuss my choice or to seek advice whether i should vaccinate, i simply asked a parent who stated she want vaccinating for advice in reg to school regulations and ppl started telling me to go to idiot.com and that i was a bad parent to me thats abuse so i called them a moran in return

    Before we go any further, the spelling is M.O.R.O.N.


    Carry on.


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    #82
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    the_syco wrote: »
    Ah. Without quoting the post that you were replying to, it seemed you were stating it. Quotes are your friend.

    It really didn't. It explicitly stated what they were referring to.


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    #83
    Kerry2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Kerry2016


    I've been reading through this thread and I think Maggie is just doing a very good job of trolling us all, surely she's not being serious? I stopped taking her seriously as soon as she accused us all of being "brainwashed by big pharma"… watch out or we'll be getting accused of being in the illuminati if we keep up disagreeing with her


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    #84
    livedadream
    Registered Users Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭livedadream


    Maggie007 wrote: »
    sullivlo wrote: »
    You called people on the thread morons - if that doesn't classify as abuse I don't know what is.

    Nobody is abusing you. People are querying your decisions as there is an absolutely overwhelming amount of evidence FOR vaccination.

    You might think that vaccination is a ploy for big pharma. But really it isn't. My job currently is to produce a more effective vaccine for whooping cough because the one that was developed requires a thing called an adjuvant. The aim of my work is to remove the adjuvant and increase the efficacy of the vaccine. Not because the adjuvant is dangerous or unsafe, but to optimise the activity as the adjuvant can initiate a different response.

    Note I say different - not always bad.

    I have seen first hand the devesation caused by not vaccinating. I had a family member lose his legs because of polio. I had a good friend develop encephalitis from polio and now he is so brain damaged he can't live alone.

    I'm not trying to abuse you, I'm just trying to present the facts that it's overwhelmingly safer to vaccinate than to not.
    I didnt come here to discuss my choice or to seek advice whether i should vaccinate, i simply asked a parent who stated she want vaccinating for advice in reg to school regulations and ppl started telling me to go to idiot.com and that i was a bad parent to me thats abuse so i called them a moran in return

    Hope you teach your kid better mate just coz someone calls you names doesn't mean you have to lower to their level take the higher ground it's playground nonsense. Ring the school and ask them but as I've said in my original post I'd prefer if you home schooled and didn't allow your kid to socialise with at risk kids. How's health you could potentially out at serious risk


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    #85
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    the_syco wrote: »
    Ah. Without quoting the post that you were replying to, it seemed you were stating it. Quotes are your friend.

    That's fair enough, quoting multiple posts from a mobile is no ones friend sadly!!

    Think it's all worked out now anyway :)


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    #86
    Stone Deaf 4evr
    Registered Users Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭Stone Deaf 4evr


    Anne_cordelia wrote: »
    I'm not anti vaccine and my child is vaccinated against all the normal diseases. However I won't be getting the chicken pox or rotavirus vaccinations as I think the severity of the illness isn't enough to warrant the risk of the vaccine.

    My child had the rota virus. 5 days and nights in isolation in a hospital with a 2 year child who can't leave a 6 foot by 8 foot room might convince you otherwise.


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    #87
    lolli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭lolli


    As someone who almost died from meningitis I would definitely think that the vaccine is the lesser of two evils!


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    #88
    sullivlo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Maggie007 wrote: »
    you give me a link to a study which shows the immunity levels of vaccinated children vs the unvaccinated... Oh wait there isnt one.

    As requested:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com.elib.tcd.ie/science/article/pii/S0264410X05009977?_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_origin=gateway&_docanchor=&md5=b8429449ccfc9c30159a5f9aeaa92ffb&ccp=y

    On my phone so I'm not 100% sure if this will work but that's an article about immunity to hepB in Iranian children who were and were not vaccinated.


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    #89
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    To answer your specific question OP, most creches request proof of adherence to the vaccine schedule. I think the ones that don't might be few and far between.

    And with the demand for creches spaces and waiting lists they can pick and choose which kids they want. Which will likely be the ones who's parents trust conventional medical practices. Our creche is strict on infectious conditions - any child appearing unwell, their parents will be called to take the child home. No if's or buts. And not allowed back until they are well, or following doctors orders and medicating appropriately.

    I'm in my forties. I remember older relatives since passed away, who never got vaccinated and who were disabled as a result of a childhood infection that we now vaccinate for. And they were the lucky ones, because many died. It was commonplace for my parents to return after the school holidays and every year one or two of their little friends never did because their parents had buried them over the school break.

    We, ironically have become immune to the horror of these diseases because we rarely see them anymore, so we have no idea how terrible they were.

    Can I ask you OP, what's your plan of action if your child contracts whooping cough /measles/ tetanus / TB? You have one I'm sure, since you researched it all so well and given your massive distrust of drug companies and doctors, I'm curious as to what you'll treat the condition with.


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    #90
    sullivlo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Tasden wrote: »
    You quoted the post where he asked said poster to provide links!

    Ah but I wasn't asking notthatsweet to provide links. I was referring to the lack of links from people in general in the thread.


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    #91
    Maggie007
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭Maggie007


    the_syco wrote: »
    Other way around, actually; it's the unvaccinated kids that spread the disease.


    List these doctors.


    Welcome to a discussion board where people discuss your viewpoint.
    how can you be worried that your child will get sick from my unvaccinated child, dont you believe that vaccinations work? Then you have nothing to worry about


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