European unveiling of new Prius PHV

zilog_jones

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/european-unveiling-of-new-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid?utm_source=ToyotaOwnersClub&utm_medium=ForumLinks

So it looks like it'll be called the "Prius PHV" in Europe, which matches the Japanese branding (1st gen was "Prius Plug-in Hybrid" in Europe). The new one will be the "Prius Prime" in the US.

The transmission has been designed so both MG1 and MG2 can drive the wheels, hence the 68 kW max power and higher max speed in EV mode.

Seems like the solar panel (which can actually charge the batteries this time!) will be standard in Europe - although not confirmed yet.

360 litre boot space sounds quite small (was 440 in the ZVW35) - a lot smaller than the US claims of 19.75 cu ft (559 litres) but I would be suspicious of the latter.

Having a heat pump will be a great addition - I saw mentions of a secondary heat source elsewhere but not this specific. In the old model you the ICE has to run to get heat (it's heated from the cooling system like any normal car), or use the heated seats.

30 mile claimed EV range is probably based on the NEDC test cycle which as we know has little bearing on reality - I would trust the US EPA figures more (22 mi/35 km).

Not mentioned here, but I believe it will weigh about 100kg more than the standard Prius - however this doesn't seem to have made handling worse according to reviews in Japan. Weight distribution is actually better (53:47) due to extra weight in the back.

Prices? Will Toyota Ireland sell it? God knows :rolleyes:

n97 mini

Jebus, that's one ugly car from behind.

zilog_jones

I think I like the look of the car better than I did at the start of the year (it's not much different to the standard 4th gen Prius), but still not so sure about the rear...

One other thing of note is it will have a "Battery Charge Mode" to force charging while in HV mode. In the original PHV once you went below the EV Mode threshold it would just function like a standard Prius (HV Mode) and only maintain a SOC of around 20-30%. This sounds like you'll be able to charge it further, but I'm not sure if that would be really more efficient or just a gimmick.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

I think I like the look of the car better than I did at the start of the year (it's not much different to the standard 4th gen Prius), but still not so sure about the rear...

One other thing of note is it will have a "Battery Charge Mode" to force charging while in HV mode. In the original PHV once you went below the EV Mode threshold it would just function like a standard Prius (HV Mode) and only maintain a SOC of around 20-30%. This sounds like you'll be able to charge it further, but I'm not sure if that would be really more efficient or just a gimmick.

No, it's just a gimmick. We haven't invented an lossless energy conversion...

stesaurus

I really don't understand the point of a Prius and never have really. Its a poor car that has always looked terrible and its only benefit seems to be a slightly better mpg than a standard ice.
Massive meh from me. They could have at least tried to have a decent usable range but again another pathetic low EV range phev.

The Prius was a terrific car , and miles better than diesel. Ultra reliable and excellent fuel economy for a petrol automatic. I had the Mk II and loved it and it was more spacious than the Leaf with a better boot. Still, I wouldn't go back.

The MK II was released in 2004, 12 years ago, it's a terrible shame most manufacturers never went hybrid at all. There's no reason we couldn't all have been driving hybrids by now, every make and model. Diesel was a disaster and unnecessary, it didn't have to be that way.

It's a shame Toyota decided to invest so much money in Fuel cells because they're never going to sell them. And Batttery cars are already much better, no one will want them.

stesaurus

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Prius was a terrific car , and miles better than diesel. Ultra reliable and excellent fuel economy for a petrol automatic. I had the Mk II and loved it and it was more spacious than the Leaf with a better boot. Still, I wouldn't go back.

The MK II was released in 2004, 12 years ago, it's a terrible shame most manufacturers never went hybrid at all. There's no reason we couldn't all have been driving hybrids by now, every make and model. Diesel was a disaster and unnecessary, it didn't have to be that way.

It's a shame Toyota decided to invest so much money in Fuel cells because they're never going to sell them. And Batttery cars are already much better, no one will want them.

Terrific how? The last thing I consider with a car is fuel economy. It looked horrid, drove horrid and was nothing special at all unless as a taxi.

Tbh I dont want a compromise hybrid and I would really like car manufacturers to skip the stage completely. Unfortunately most will move to phev now to take advantage of tax breaks/incentives.

I'm assuming the rear is intentionally supposed to look like a set of lips?


... but why?

grogi

s.welstead wrote: »

Tbh I dont want a compromise hybrid and I would really like car manufacturers to skip the stage completely. Unfortunately most will move to phev now to take advantage of tax breaks/incentives.

I personally think that's great. Everyone will benefit from it too...

The massive introduction of PHEV is not a leap forward as the EV would be. However, with the limited supply of batteries for EV, if we use those bateries to build PHEV it would contribute much more into pollution reduction than pure EVs would.

s.welstead

s.welstead wrote: »

Terrific how? The last thing I consider with a car is fuel economy. It looked horrid, drove horrid and was nothing special at all unless as a taxi.

Tbh I dont want a compromise hybrid and I would really like car manufacturers to skip the stage completely. Unfortunately most will move to phev now to take advantage of tax breaks/incentives.

Terrific technologically , not a looker sure but I was happy enough with it for 4 years. I loved the ride quality on Irish roads too. I spend more time in the car so the looks are less important.

As I said hybrids were good in 2004 and we should have had plug ins years ago also , Check out the patents for the NiMh battery to find out the reason why an oil company made sure that didn't happen !

zilog_jones

European press release here, with some more detail: http://newsroom.toyota.eu/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=CD8B16AD2E9DE8BD1E9E8C206D5826B0?&id=5285&allImage=1&teaser=prius-plug-hybrid-new-benchmark-fuel-efficiency&mid=

s.welstead wrote: »

They could have at least tried to have a decent usable range but again another pathetic low EV range phev.

The energy density with batteries just isn't there. They already had to reduce boot space significantly and remove the centre rear seat to get an 8.8 kWH battery (and related components) in there. With the 43 litre petrol tank (maybe larger on EU models) you still have a range of about 1000 km. The real benefit with PHEVs is EV driving at slow speeds e.g. city driving, where ICEs are at their least efficient. If you have a short commute you can do it with zero emissions. No point in comparing range with a BEV.

s.welstead wrote: »

It looked horrid, drove horrid and was nothing special at all unless as a taxi.

Which one? 2nd generation (2003-2009) would fit that description, but they've improved significantly since then. I have a 2012 Plug-in and would not describe it as "horrid" to look at (certainly more interesting than any other Toyota of the time), and ride and handling are much improved over previous versions (and I think it drives better than the Leaf - I really hate light steering). The 4th gen Prius has a lower centre of gravity and independent rear suspension - I've heard many good reports in how handling has improved. I'm not a taxi driver either

Unfortunately most will move to phev now to take advantage of tax breaks/incentives.

You cannot deny they are better for the local environment than the equivalent diesel. Even if you ignore the environmental side of things, modern diesels have too many expensive things to go wrong in them (DPFs, DMFs, EGR valves, etc.). Sure a hybrid has even more expensive components, but they tend to go wrong a lot less often

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm assuming the rear is intentionally supposed to look like a set of lips?

They got a drag coefficient of 0.25 somehow - not sure if that explains some of the weird design choices (Leaf is 0.28, Tesla Model S is 0.24).

Renault are releasing the 40 Kwh Zoe in October, Nissan will follow with a 40 Kwh then in 2018 they will have 60 Kwh so there really is no need for plug ins at all.

Sooner or later Toyota will realise this. Probably later.

A 40 Kwh Leaf or Zoe should get 210 kms with hard driving and 280 Kms with more normal driving. Possibly 300 kms with gentle driving.

A 60 Kwh should get 315 Kms with hard driving and 360 Kms, normal driving and close to 400 kms with gentle driving, obviously gentle driving is not driving fast or accelerating hard.

With more range you depend less on the public charging network, with 350 kms range you will rarely use it and your home becomes your primary means of charging, home charging is most EV owners primary means of charging anyway even with current range.

So Toyota are fooling themselves that batteries are not good enough, German car companies have made it clear now that there is no future in Diesel, and also Renault, Renault are considering abandoning diesel altogether. So if Toyota thinks Fuel Cells are still the way forward then someone needs to be fired and fast.

The Germans are not releasing any fuel cars any time soon nor do they have any plan, I wonder why !!!

porsche boy

Deleted User wrote:

I'm assuming the rear is intentionally supposed to look like a set of lips?

Deleted User wrote:

... but why?

Gives a look of resting bitch face.

porsche boy

Deleted User wrote:

... German car companies have made it clear now that there is no future in Diesel, and also Renault, Renault are considering abandoning diesel altogether.

source?

A 1.8 petrol auto was the worst choice of engine for the Prius IMO. I know a diesel engine is heavier and will effect the EV side but the latest Avensis have all alloy engines that would make a much better mpg figure overall.

grogi

porsche boy wrote: »

source?

A 1.8 petrol auto was the worst choice of engine for the Prius IMO. I know a diesel engine is heavier and will effect the EV side but the latest Avensis have all alloy engines that would make a much better mpg figure overall.

There is no efficiency to be gained by going from the Atkinson engine to a diesel one.

zilog_jones

Deleted User wrote: »

Renault are releasing the 40 Kwh Zoe in October, Nissan will follow with a 40 Kwh then in 2018 they will have 60 Kwh so there really is no need for plug ins at all.

315 km is still not enough for a round trip from Dublin to Cork for example. Charging along the way still adds significant time - could get the train quicker - and charging at the destination may not be convenient or available at all. There's still something to be said for getting 900km+ range on a 3 minute "charge", with fuel that you can get in pretty much any village in the country.

So if Toyota thinks Fuel Cells are still the way forward then someone needs to be fired and fast.

They still have better energy density and faster fuelling times than BEVs - there is still potential there. Problem is the fuelling infrastructure. I'm sure people had similar thoughts about petrol ICE cars in the 1890s

porsche boy wrote: »

A 1.8 petrol auto was the worst choice of engine for the Prius IMO. I know a diesel engine is heavier and will effect the EV side but the latest Avensis have all alloy engines that would make a much better mpg figure overall.

Diesels don't work efficiently with the duty cycle required for a hybrid. They take too long to warm up to optimal temperatures and do not start or stop smoothly. PSA tried diesel hybrids and they barely made any improvement on fuel consumption. Diesel engines are also bigger at the same displacement, and will require DMFs, particulate filters, etc. = more weight. The terrible particulate and NOx emissions also goes against the ideology of a hybrid.

Diesels are doomed anyway

porsche boy

zilog_jones wrote:

Diesels are doomed anyway

Never!!!! The day of derv shall live forever!

porsche boy

porsche boy wrote: »

source?

A 1.8 petrol auto was the worst choice of engine for the Prius IMO. I know a diesel engine is heavier and will effect the EV side but the latest Avensis have all alloy engines that would make a much better mpg figure overall.

I can't look for links right now but at least google Renault considers dropping diesel or something like that.

Diesel hybrids were tried and failed. They are extremely polluting when cold and have to run much more frequently to provide heat to the cabin and to keep the engine itself warm. so mpg was actually worse than the Prius. Peugeot tried.

Diesel hybrids make no sense, they're not necessary.

n97 mini

There were a couple of Honda Insights (first generation) in the US where the owners replaced the 1.0 3-cyl petrol engines with VW 1.2 TDI engines. Google for Honda Insight diesel for loads of links.

The diesel conversion did improve fuel economy slightly, but more tellingly the owners had to get special permits from the EPA to import the engines due to their pollution levels. Doubt the diesel will have the same longevity as the very simple petrol engine it replaced either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gQRbuZoVzM

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

315 km is still not enough for a round trip from Dublin to Cork for example. Charging along the way still adds significant time - could get the train quicker - and charging at the destination may not be convenient or available at all. There's still something to be said for getting 900km+ range on a 3 minute "charge", with fuel that you can get in pretty much any village in the country.

I doubt the train is quicker unless you live in the rafters of Houston and your destination is the sweet shop in Cork Station !!!!!

charging adds approximately 20% of the travel time at 100 Kmph or in my case about 20 minutes per 1h30m of driving . personally I stop anyway for a coffee at this duration and hence my total elapsed time on a one charge journey is not much greater then in my ICE. Where you do notice it is long journeys , with two or three fast charges , but these are rare

900km+ range on a 3 minute "charge", with fuel that you can get in pretty much any village in the country.

there is also a lot to be said for 150Km costing €1.50

They still have better energy density and faster fuelling times than BEVs - there is still potential there. Problem is the fuelling infrastructure. I'm sure people had similar thoughts about petrol ICE cars in the 1890s [/QUOTE

fuel cells are going nowhere, the energy density is appalling and the current fuels are hydrocarbon based. Its dead end engineering and virtually everyone except Toyota has given up on it. BEVs are the way forward

Diesels don't work efficiently with the duty cycle required for a hybrid. They take too long to warm up to optimal temperatures and do not start or stop smoothly. PSA tried diesel hybrids and they barely made any improvement on fuel consumption. Diesel engines are also bigger at the same displacement, and will require DMFs, particulate filters, etc. = more weight. The terrible particulate and NOx emissions also goes against the ideology of a hybrid.

Diesels are doomed anyway

Ive nothing against hybrids, they should not receive any subvention from the state and the NEDC test should be modified to ensure that its tests hybrids properly , the slow speed and limited distance in the test overly benefits hybrids and gives them much lower c02 tax bands then they deserve