HSE tried to get High Court Order to C-Section woman without her consent!

lazygal

Beanybabog wrote: »

That's actually disgraceful and that's how mistakes happen - i.e. jabbing someone with an allergy

I'm allergic to a common painkiller, not life threatening but I get a very nasty rash. This was written on the front of my folder and once admitted I was wearing a tag on my wrist that stated I was allergic to it. I lost count of how many times a nurse came in with the painkiller and I had to ask if it was the one I can't have. And I was able to speak up and had no language barriers. How do other people with no english or who are deaf or have other communication issues deal with this? It wasn't a case of busy staff run off their feet either, it was purely lack of care and attention.

volchitsa

I gave birth outside Ireland BTW, and I was told, before the birth, that the solution of choice when labour is blocked like that is an epidural, not syntocin.

I had an epidural anyway so didn't get a chance to test it, but apparently if you start off without one, and then labour stops progressing, very often an epidural will be enough to get it going again.

I don't remember if it was explained why though, but it wasn't just the pain relief aspect.

lazygal

volchitsa wrote: »

It's nonsense, you can't labour actively for hours, true, but the earlier stages of labour can go on for hours, some women even sleep during them - the problem in Ireland isn't the intervention itself, it's the systematic use of it far too early on in labour when it hasn't shown its usefulness and it can lead to complications.

A friend of mine nearly had a disaster when the injection of syntocin (IMUIC) sped up her labour so much it was suddenly out of control, and her little boy was born with shoulder dystocia because there wasn't time to adjust his position. The midwives were really panicking, and it was her third baby, so she knew what was normal at that stage.

(The baby was ok in the end, though he had to have physiotherapy for his arm, as they can be paralyzed if the damage is major - he wasn't, luckily. But the hospital admitted they caused the problem, and it could have been disastrous for the baby.)

A woman I know had a really traumatic first birth. She was booked in for induction because she was ten days over and that was the policy and she was given no choice but instead told all the horror stories about what might happen.
Very soon after she was on the syntocin drip her whole body crashed and she ended up in theatre under a general anaesthetic, which had huge knock-on effects for bonding and breatfeeding (she simply couldn't cope with it after everything) and triggered some mental health issues. It took her ages to come to terms with what happened.
There was no reason to induce her, baby was fine, she was fine and her body simply wasn't ready to have the baby. But because in that hospital the 'rule' was induction after ten days, she felt pushed into an intervention she never should have had.

Beanybabog

lazygal wrote: »

I It wasn't a case of busy staff run off their feet either, it was purely lack of care and attention.

I have come across this many times with my friend. She spent a long time in hospital on her kids. On One she had a catheter in her arm and when she told a number of midwives it was sore. Turned out they were supposed to flush it out every day and she didn't know to ask this so it was filthy and her arm got infected. Not life threatening but totally unnecessary. She swears that you need to learn as much as possible from the internet so you can follow up on and monitor your own care, which is scary

seamus

^^

This is an actual known phenomenon - patients (and their families) have a tendency to place themselves completely and utterly into the care of the hospital when they're admitted. They don't ask questions, they don't raise queries or concerns. They assume that medical staff are looking after them, are making all of the right decisions and they haven't been forgotten about.

It's not an Irish problem, it's a global phenomenon, part of the human condition. Medical staff are usually aware of this, but they too can get used to not being questioned, or making the reverse assumption - that if someone says nothing, they need nothing. A patient may think they're bothering medical staff, when in reality continuous feedback from patients is essential to better outcomes, and is something any half-competent professional will be glad to get. A silent patient is one you will see again very soon.

It's something everyone needs to be aware of - if you're admitted to a hospital, or a family member is, ask questions. Pester the staff until you're properly informed about what's going on. Ring the call bell, and ring it often. If you think something is wrong or hasn't been done correctly, question it. The worst thing that can happen is that someone comes and takes a look and says it's fine.

lazygal

I knew going into hospital you have to be 'that' patient. The pain in the ass who asks questions and for second opinions and to use the call button as often as required. I remember a nurse telling me how busy they were when I asked her to stop and explain something-we're all busy in work, we all have aspects of our work that are so routine we never question them and perhaps don't feel the need to explain to others. However, my busy day leading to me taking shortcuts doesn't put anyone's health or life at risk.

dublin99

Interesting points made by AIMS Ireland on this case:

http://aimsireland.ie/7-points-on-the-high-courts-refusal-to-force-a-woman-to-undergo-a-c-section-against-her-will/

http://aimsireland.ie/statement-from-aims-ireland-on-the-lifting-of-in-camera-status-in-the-case-of-mother-b-vs-hse-heard-in-the-high-court-dublin-on-30th-september-2016/

Beanybabog

dublin99 wrote: »

Interesting points made by AIMS Ireland on this case:

http://aimsireland.ie/7-points-on-the-high-courts-refusal-to-force-a-woman-to-undergo-a-c-section-against-her-will/

http://aimsireland.ie/statement-from-aims-ireland-on-the-lifting-of-in-camera-status-in-the-case-of-mother-b-vs-hse-heard-in-the-high-court-dublin-on-30th-september-2016/

AIMS Ireland are aware of many cases in which heavily pregnant women have been threatened “with the guards coming to get them”

Sick sick country. Sounds like a perfect way to make a pregnant woman skip town and end up in labour with no medical assistance whatsoever.

rainbow kirby

Beanybabog wrote: »

Sick sick country. Sounds like a perfect way to make a pregnant woman skip town and end up in labour with no medical assistance whatsoever.

And why I'd like to complete my family here in the UK before considering moving back.

intheclouds

rainbow kirby wrote: »

And why I'd like to complete my family here in the UK before considering moving back.

If I were a pregnant woman in Ireland Id rather take my chances on a 2 hour drive to NI or a Ryanair flight if I thought anything at all was going wrong rather than face an Irish maternity hospital.

But even if things were going well, itd be better to be a pregnant woman NOT in Ireland.

This is the side of the 8th amendment that is overlooked by pro-lifers. Even on this thread someone was immediately jumping to "abortion" when in fact there was nothing in this case to do with abortion at all.

volchitsa

Beanybabog wrote: »

Sick sick country. Sounds like a perfect way to make a pregnant woman skip town and end up in labour with no medical assistance whatsoever.

Hopefully losing this case (and not being allowed to keep it quiet - good work, judge!) will make this sort of threatening behaviour impossible in the near future. That's why it's important that as many pregnant, or planning to be pregnant, women learn of this as soon as possible, so that women start to know their rights, and to insist on them.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

dudara

The biggest issue with the 8th amendment is how much it muddies the waters when it comes to healthcare of pregnant women. This is the single biggest reason to repeal it for me. Right now, while the 8th is still in effect, I would not feel 100% confident if I were a pregnant women in the Irish healthcare system.

volchitsa

intheclouds wrote: »

If I were a pregnant woman in Ireland Id rather take my chances on a 2 hour drive to NI or a Ryanair flight if I thought anything at all was going wrong rather than face an Irish maternity hospital.

But even if things were going well, itd be better to be a pregnant woman NOT in Ireland.

This is the side of the 8th amendment that is overlooked by pro-lifers. Even on this thread someone was immediately jumping to "abortion" when in fact there was nothing in this case to do with abortion at all.

Hmm. I don't want to pour cold water on your suggestion, but I'm from Northern Ireland and even without the 8th, the tradition of treating pregnant woman as though they'd lost their brains when they gained a fetus is not entirely unknown up here too. It's a deeply entrenched attitude, and the 8th makes it worse by giving a legal basis to it, but it's not the only reason for it.

Beanybabog

intheclouds wrote: »

This is the side of the 8th amendment that is overlooked by pro-lifers. Even on this thread someone was immediately jumping to "abortion" when in fact there was nothing in this case to do with abortion at all.

That's because the idea of dragging a woman, sedating her and cutting her open against her will is unlikely to gain as much sympathy for their position as the idea of women aborting late term healthy fetuses on a whim. But I believe some of the hard line pro-lifers wouldn't care

Beanybabog

I don't trust them either. I don't trust them to make decisions in my best interests. Maybe I should be ashamed to say it, but at least now I'm actually pregnant I know I still believe the same thing, but I am not willing to be a martyr. If that makes me a bad mother in some people's eyes so be it, but it should be my choice. I have told my husband numerous times not to let me die, and that he is my voice if something goes wrong - and it's disgraceful that I even have to think like that

Beanybabog

On a lighter note, at least I have thought on something to put on my birth plan!!

volchitsa

Beanybabog wrote: »

I don't trust them either. I don't trust them to make decisions in my best interests. Maybe I should be ashamed to say it, but at least now I'm actually pregnant I know I still believe the same thing, but I am not willing to be a martyr. If that makes me a bad mother in some people's eyes so be it, but it should be my choice. I have told my husband numerous times not to let me die, and that he is my voice if something goes wrong - and it's disgraceful that I even have to think like that

Of course it doesn't make you a bad person, nor a bad mother, (but as an aside you better get used to the first rule of motherhood : A mother's place is in the wrong" - once you know everyone will try to guilt you into doing what they think you should, you can just shrug it off and do your best!)

Anyway, on the actual point, I remember as a teen discussing this with my parents, and my dad saying (and my mother agreeing) that he would never have chosen to let her die so a baby could live. I took a while to get my head around that (we were being emotionally blackmailed at school by SPUC at the time) but he was right, he married her, not his children. And yet I know my father would have laid down his life for any of us - but he wouldn't have sacrificed my mother, nor left a newborn baby without a mother, never mind once there were other children at home who needed their mother too.

So no, I wouldn't give that thought a moment's hesitation. You and your husband are the basis of the family you've created together. Without you, there'd be no family, just a struggling single father. Not the same thing.

I'm sure he's aware of that too, even if it seems a bit harsh to say it like that.

Neyite

Beanybabog wrote: »

On a lighter note, at least I have thought on something to put on my birth plan!!

It's not really worth the paper it's written on tbh.

The real medical stuff you'd like on the birth plan ultimately gets decided by a doctor and potentially a judge. You can ask for stuff like delayed cord clamping or skin to skin - which while it's nice, its not you deciding your actual medical care. You indicate a preference on your birth plan but realistically you get to decide what whalesong to labour to and they get to decide how your labour will ultimately go.

dublin99

Just imagine being in Mother B’s shoes, having had 3 previous caesarean sections, she would be well aware of the possible complications and longer recovery time following another c section, as well as the need to look after 3 other young ones and a new born. The last thing she needed, on her due date, having gone into hospital with the hope of trying a natural birth (having weighed up all the pros and cons), was to be pressurised then be told the HSE was seeking a Court Order to section her. Imagine the stress! It was fortunate that, under the circumstances and the enormous pressure, she was able to seek assistance and put together her own legal team within hours to argue her case in the High Court.

According to the Judgment, the case was “heard at great haste”. The HSE, despite having two obstetricians giving expert evidence for its case, was unable to convince the Judge to grant the Order. On the other hand, “no contrary medical evidence was provided” in support of Mother B’s case, as the Judge noted that Counsel for Mother B was only instructed at 10am that morning of the urgent hearing, and had little time to prepare let alone produce expert witnesses to give evidence!

The HSE had come across as extremely high handed in this case, threw its weight around, and went even further to try to block the mother’s application to lift the “in camera rule” and have the case reported, although it is a case of public interests. The HSE was essentially throwing tax payers money away in legal fees, as they even engaged a separate legal team for the baby! This money should have been spent more wisely on real medical services!

AFAIK, Mother B made an informed decision not to have an elective caesarean. After her water broke, she agreed to a caesarean few hours later as labour had not progressed in a satisfactory manner. It was a wise and logical decision, as according to the AIMS statement, the case was heard in court on 30 September, so she probably had her section the following morning on 1 October, and therefore probably avoided causing disruptions for any of the medics who may have planned to watch the GAA finals (replay) that afternoon!

Beanybabog

What hospital was it?

fits

Neyite wrote: »

It's not really worth the paper it's written on tbh.

.

I see where you are coming from but i dont fully agree. It can let your carers know the type of birth you want eg re pain relief. Also a lot of decisions are negotiable eg continuous monitoring, regularity of internal examinations, rupture of membranes. Some hospitals will have you on a clock as soon as you go in, some are more flexible.

January

It's not indicated which hospital.

lazygal

fits wrote: »

I see where you are coming from but i dont fully agree. It can let your carers know the type of birth you want eg re pain relief. Also a lot of decisions are negotiable eg continuous monitoring, regularity of internal examinations, rupture of membranes. Some hospitals will have you on a clock as soon as you go in, some are more flexible.

I say this with the greatest of respect, but everything can go out the window once you're admitted. You may have to deal with a consultant you've never met before who suggests a course of action you do not want and have to battle a little. This is what happened to me second time around-I had agreed a course of action, it was written in my notes, when things didn't go to plan I had another doctor I had never spoken to before put a lot of pressure on me and my husband to pursue what I knew would lead to a very poor outcome for me and my baby. Thankfully it worked out fine, but that hour of stress caused by a doctor who deferred to my husband over me is something I will never forget.

Beanybabog

Volchitsa, your parents position would be my position however it's fairly clear that's not a position we are allowed take by law. And that scares me

lazygal

Beanybabog wrote: »

Volchitsa, your parents position would be my position however it's fairly clear that's not a position we are allowed take by law. And that scares me

In Ireland, even though my husband is my next of kin legally the foetus inside me would have legal representation in EOL decisions for me, as in NP case of a dead woman kept alive because she was pregnant. My husband and children might have to watch me gradually decompose in front of them if I technically died during pregnancy but could be kept alive to continue gestation.

fits

lazygal wrote: »

I say this with the greatest of respect, but everything can go out the window once you're admitted. .

Do you think I dont know that? Im expecting twins. A singleton pregnancy and labour is unpredictable, a multiple is even more so. But if you dont have an idea of how you would like things to go. If youre not informed about the various possible courses of action, if you dont understand if interventions are necessary, desirable or evidence based well then youre definitely not going to have any meaningful input into your care. A birth plan is mostly about informing yourself as well as the medical team.

Neyite

fits wrote: »

I see where you are coming from but i dont fully agree. It can let your carers know the type of birth you want eg re pain relief. Also a lot of decisions are negotiable eg continuous monitoring, regularity of internal examinations, rupture of membranes. Some hospitals will have you on a clock as soon as you go in, some are more flexible.

Yes, I do know what a birth plan is. I had one. And I do have actual experience of labour and birth so I know the process and what options may be involved, thank you all the same.

ShaShaBear

I was forced into AML with my first. Induction at 10 days overdue despite the best of interference by the lovely women in the MLU I originally registered with. I was put on a ward with 5 other women and my partner was promptly removed. There was no explanations of what to expect the next morning. I cried myself to sleep in that bed and at 8am the following morning, they came to cart me off for ARM. I told them I wanted to wait for my partner and they tried to lift me into a wheelchair while telling me "there's no need to be a baby" and I lost it. Told them I wouldn't even be staying in a hospital if they didn't wait for him. The procedure was not explained to me. I was man-handled. I was so utterly terrified I started to wet myself and clenched muscles I didn't even know I had. My poor OH didn't know what was normal and he cried along with me. Luckily my clenching made it impossible to break my waters, so they got someone else in. The second she laid eyes on me, she knew. She told me to relax and "pretend its a sweep" and "itll be over before you know it". Granted, it still wasn't asking my permission but she did calm me down. I ended up covered in my own diarrhea 20 minutes later and sitting on a commode in a shower screaming for the pain to stop. Got nothing but abuse from the nurse sent to take me to the labour ward to give the other women peace. The two midwives who assisted were very nice but wouldn't let me up to move and as one was a student, I had to get two internals every time they checked without ever asking my permission for the first, let alone the second. Another midwife came in at 1pm and threatened me with "intervention" if I didn't hurry up with pushing and that she could clearly see I was fit for three pushes instead of two on the trace.
It was not a traumatic birth, but it has scared me beyond belief with regards to consultant care.

MLU on my second. My permission was asked before everything, including helping to take my pants off before I got into a bath. Permission to tie my hair back, permission to wrap me in a towel, permission to examine me, permission to check for cuts or grazes afterwards, permission to weigh the child after 20 minutes of skin-to-skin and full acceptance when I asked for more time. Asked me if I wanted to walk, sit on a ball, lie on a bean bag, wanted to see baby coming, wanted to catch baby myself etc. Very, very much an empowering labour and birth compared to my first.

I definitely agree with what others say. You really do need to be "that" patient when you are a pregnant woman in a hospital. Your needs and wishes are all but shat on

volchitsa

That's unforgivable that you were put through that, Shashabear, it's quite upsetting reading even for an uninvolved outsider. And I'm so glad for you that you were able to have such a great experience for your second birth, it would have been such a shame of that had put you off having another (TBH I could have understood it!)