UFC 204 - Bisping v Henderson 2 (Event Discussion)

Paully D

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I don't know what it was and maybe it was just me and tiredness from all the travel and booze but the atmosphere seemed a bit flat in there.

I thought it was pretty standard. It didn't blow me away or anything but it was fine, nothing to jump out at me to make me feel it was below par. During the main event it was really good IMO.

I asked my mate who watched on TV and he said he felt the atmosphere overall sounded good. He mentioned that Goldie and Stann commented a few times on it.

Depp

Bisping via Submission

Paully D wrote: »

What a brilliant card it was overall by the way. 9 finishes in a row including 5 submissions in a row and a superb main event. Fantastic.

really did turn into a cracker alright, really goes to show that what a card looks like on paper has very little bearing on how it actually turns out!

dilapidating

Mellor wrote:

What damage did Hendo do in the 2nd?

He knocked Bisping to the ground.

darced

Bisping via Decision

This post has been deleted.

Depp

Bisping via Submission

just rewatched it there and watched the second round a few times, when I watched it last night i scored one and two to hendo, then 3 4 and 5 to bisping. The more I watch it the more it seems to me bisping could have taken the second. very similar to mcgregor diaz 2, save for a late flurry, bisping dominated the majority of the round. Its kindve a strange grey area for me as I think a knockdown should have a lot of importance and i feel was correct with my 3-2 scoring, just makes me think hendo is making himself look a bit silly claiming it was the wrong decision. Great fight overall though really enjoyed the back and forth nature of it and bisping really showed the heart of a champion coming back from being two rounds down hurt badly with about a quarter of an eye to win three rounds on the trot

hendo111

Hendo looks silly for claiming that he won? you're not serious? rd 1 he nearly finished Bisping absolutely wrecked him clear 10-8 round,it was a close fight,Diaz comparison isnt great either Nate didnt hurt Conor in anyway similar to Hendo hurt Bisping.

martyos121

hendo111 wrote: »

Hendo looks silly for claiming that he won? you're not serious? rd 1 he nearly finished Bisping absolutely wrecked him clear 10-8 round,it was a close fight,Diaz comparison isnt great either Nate didnt hurt Conor in anyway similar to Hendo hurt Bisping.

You should look up the criteria needed to award a 10-8 round, it's some ways off what you believe it is.

Depp

Bisping via Submission

hendo111 wrote: »

Hendo looks silly for claiming that he won? you're not serious? rd 1 he nearly finished Bisping absolutely wrecked him clear 10-8 round,it was a close fight,Diaz comparison isnt great either Nate didnt hurt Conor in anyway similar to Hendo hurt Bisping.

pipe down dan you lost, accept it :D:D

arguable the first is a 10-8 definitely I just dont see anything other than a round where someone is completely dominant for the whole round (which hendo wasn't) as a fair 10-8. I dont see ''he nearly finished him'' as a valid justification when it was a very even round leading up to a late knockdown

re the second I agree hendo did more damage than diaz but it was the same story, bisping tooled hendo up completely for most of the round then hendo got his offence in late, but as I said I feel hendo took it 10-9 but I could see how someone would give it to bisping

hendo111

Wrong,the problem is the inconsistency in judges not giving them,if your dropped and nearly finished as far as im concerned it should be scored 10-8,Bisping at no stage of rd 1 had Henderson in any trouble (or for the whole fight to be fair),you nearly have to kill a man to get a 10-8 its a joke.

.ak

Swashbuckler wrote: »

That doesn't make any sense to me. All that damage could be caused in one round. That doesn't equate to winning a fight.

He didnt say that either. In context, we was talking about scoring a particular round that McGregor had won because he knocked Diaz down twice in that particular round.

I was speaking out of context, just adding to discussion that UFC judges do indeed score based on damage inflicted and there are indicators for that. I haven't seen the Besping fight so I'm assuming the damage was done in one round and not much else done in the others after seeing the score cards.

John_D80

Bisping via Decision

Is genuinely confusing to me how anybody saw the first round as a 10-8.

Isn't the stated definition of a 10-8, ''overwhelming domination'' or something similar. Getting a knockdown and a few elbows in, is far far from overwhelming.

Not even remotely related to a 10-8 round.

Mellor

Bisping via Submission

dilapidating wrote: »

He knocked Bisping to the ground.

Right, so that one knockdown. (Which was a bit softer than the first round. He stumbled back, rather than dropped on the spot). And he did nothing else . Bisping landed almost triple the strikes Hendo did.
Surely you can see how there has to be a point where a knockdown doesn't cancel out an entire one sided round.

The case can be made to give the second to either of them. Depending on how heavily you score the knockdown.
For that reason I think a 10-10 is a better score than 10-9 to either of them.

hendo111 wrote: »

Wrong,the problem is the inconsistency in judges not giving them,if your dropped and nearly finished as far as im concerned it should be scored 10-8,Bisping at no stage of rd 1 had Henderson in any trouble (or for the whole fight to be fair),you nearly have to kill a man to get a 10-8 its a joke.

A 10-8 is about dominance, not how close somebody was to finishing. Or else close sub attempts would scored 10-8s.
You can't say Hendo was overwhelmingly dominated when he was losing and on the back foot for 4 minutes of the round.

Even if you gave Hendo a 10-8 in the first, and gave him the second too, it'd be a draw. Hendo still doesn't win.
Bisping would still be champ, and Hendo still retires.

hendo111

Bisping's volume numbers are misleading imo,Dan wasnt in any bother at any stage people are making out Bisping was lighting him up because he landed more strikes 3 to 1,I personally gave Dan round 1 2 and 5,no problem with people going bisping 3 4 and 5 tbh dont think either could claim to be robbed if they got the decision,


Not sure if its been mentioned by my god Albert Tumemov is a horrific grappler needs to go away and work hard on it such a promising striker let down by his grappling.

Axwell

Depp wrote: »

re the second I agree hendo did more damage than diaz but it was the same story, bisping tooled hendo up completely for most of the round then hendo got his offence in late, but as I said I feel hendo took it 10-9 but I could see how someone would give it to bisping

Think you are getting your names mixed up. You had only just posted a few minutes ago how you watched the second round a few times and you feel Bisping won it.

Depp

Bisping via Submission

Axwell wrote: »

Think you are getting your names mixed up. You had only just posted a few minutes ago how you watched the second round a few times and you feel Bisping won it.

what i actually said was after watching it again I could see bisping winning the round but still feel hendo took it with the knockdown, could've worded it a bit better i guess. my point was the round could have gone either way depending on how much weight you give to the knockdown

Mellor

Bisping via Submission

hendo111 wrote: »

Bisping's volume numbers are misleading imo,Dan wasnt in any bother at any stage people are making out Bisping was lighting him up because he landed more strikes 3 to 1,I personally gave Dan round 1 2 and 5,no problem with people going bisping 3 4 and 5 tbh dont think either could claim to be robbed if they got the decision,

I don't think anybody has said Bisping was close to finishing him. He landed a few good shots, and Dan back peddled hard and covered up just before that knockdown.
Dan wasn't remotely close to finishing Bisping either in the second round.

As I said, scoring round 2 either way is defendable. But I've no idea how you gave him the 5th. He lost that pretty clearly imo. The 4th was closer than the 5th.

Mellor

Bisping via Submission

Hendo's power in his right hand was his biggest asset during his career. But it was also a sizable weakness imo. The big right was so good that he was knocking guys out despite having quite poor striking. They was really evident last night. The success with the right hand also meant he discarded grappling years ago. Hendo's grappling has look really average over the last few years. Nowhere near what you'd expect for a former Olympian.
When he landed the knockdown in the first he charged with double ape-fists looking for the KO. If he actually tried to use some sort of control, he probably could have elbowed his way to the win. He did land that nice knee tap later on (which isn't allow in Greco-Roman wrestling), but when it was on the ground, he was trying some weird holddown drip and Bisping just stood up. If he flattened him out and landed some strikes and he might have taken that round, and the fight, on the scorecards.

mrkiscool2

hendo111 wrote: »

Bisping's volume numbers are misleading imo,Dan wasnt in any bother at any stage people are making out Bisping was lighting him up because he landed more strikes 3 to 1,I personally gave Dan round 1 2 and 5,no problem with people going bisping 3 4 and 5 tbh dont think either could claim to be robbed if they got the decision,


Not sure if its been mentioned by my god Albert Tumemov is a horrific grappler needs to go away and work hard on it such a promising striker let down by his grappling.

Erm no, he was rocked in the 2nd right before he smacked Bisping down to the ground with a great punch. I had 5 being very close until Hendo rolled in and got pummeled on the ground for the last 3-5 seconds. I think the judges got it right, don't think Henderson won at all.

Axwell

John_D80 wrote: »

Is genuinely confusing to me how anybody saw the first round as a 10-8.

Isn't the stated definition of a 10-8, ''overwhelming domination'' or something similar. Getting a knockdown and a few elbows in, is far far from overwhelming.

Not even remotely related to a 10-8 round.

A 10-8 round for the most part is subjective and down to interpretation of what deserves it or is considered as a fighter who 'overwhelmingly dominates'.

There was more than a knockdown and a few elbows, he also bust Bisping open and based on the unified rules and definition of effective striking as regards visual impact then that has more weight.

Heavier strikes that have a visible impact on the opponent will be given more weight than the number of strikes landed. These assessments include causing an opponent to appear stunned from a legal blow, causing the opponent to stagger, appearance of a cut or bruise from a legal strike and causing the opponent to show pain.

In round 2 Bisping landed more effective strikes and was wining 10-9 until Hendo dropped him - that knockdown was enough to convince 2 of the judges to turn give the round 10-9 to Hendo even though Bisping landed 3 times the number of total and significant strikes.

If the knockdown was enough to do that in round 2 then a 10-8 to Hendo in round 1 shouldn't be that shocking had he scored it considering the round was even up to that point and then he managed to drop Bisping to the canvas with a right hand and bust him open leaving him bloodied and stunned when he did get up after taken a few elbows on the ground. If anyone dominated the round it was Hendo and when you factor in the visual impact of those strikes one could say it leans more towards a 10-8 in his favour than a 10-9 which he would have scored for just landing a few more strikes to win it by a 'close margin' which is what a 10-9 is described as.

Again its subjective and many websites and notable correspondents and pundits gave it as a 10-8 and I would not have been surprised to see that on the scorecards for round 1 after the fight. A 10-9 is expected but a 10-8 would have neither been surprising or shocking.

In the end I think the result was right and Bisping deserved the win and im glad to see Hendo hang up the gloves before its too late and something happened to him inside the cage. He should have packed it in after the Mousasi fight but at least he was able to walk out last night head held high on a great career.

dilapidating

Mellor wrote:

Right, so that one knockdown. (Which was a bit softer than the first round. He stumbled back, rather than dropped on the spot). And he did nothing else . Bisping landed almost triple the strikes Hendo did. Surely you can see how there has to be a point where a knockdown doesn't cancel out an entire one sided round.

Mellor wrote:

The case can be made to give the second to either of them. Depending on how heavily you score the knockdown. For that reason I think a 10-10 is a better score than 10-9 to either of them.

A singular shot which knocks down an opponent and brings the potential for a finish whether the finish is successful or not should be weighed heavier than several shots which do not cause damage to the opponent.

Axwell

dilapidating wrote: »

A singular shot which knocks down an opponent and brings the potential for a finish whether the finish is successful or not should be weighed heavier than several shots which do not cause damage to the opponent.

Well clearly it was by 2 of the judges - in the second round Bisping landed 3 times as many strikes as was pointed out, Hendo landed the knockdown and 2 of the judges scored the round 10-9 even though the most strikes and damage up to that had been done by Bisping. As Mellor said based on that a 10-10 in that round would be more justified if the judges were gonna weigh the knockdown so heavily instead of just giving a 10-9 to Hendo.

Mellor

Bisping via Submission

dilapidating wrote: »

A singular shot which knocks down an opponent and brings the potential for a finish whether the finish is successful or not should be weighed heavier than several shots which do not cause damage to the opponent.

A knockdown strike is weighted more heavily. Everyone agree with that I'd imagine.
But it's not an infinite weighting. As some point, multiple significant strikes will equal a single knockdown. That point can't be quantified and has to be decided on a case by case basis.

For reference.
Hendo landed 3 head shots in rd 2. A shot to the body and a few light kicks.
Bisping landed 19 shots to the head. 3 bodyshots and a few kicks.
You have to give the knockdown a huge weighting to give that round to Hendo. And the second wasn't as big a shot as the first.

Regardless, two of the judges gave that round to Hendo anyway. He still lost.

EagererBeaver

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Erm no, he was rocked in the 2nd right before he smacked Bisping down to the ground with a great punch. I had 5 being very close until Hendo rolled in and got pummeled on the ground for the last 3-5 seconds. I think the judges got it right, don't think Henderson won at all.

In fairness he got kicked in the balls right then as well, which was missed by the ref.

hendo111

@mrkiscool2 err no Hendo was never in any harm for the 5 rounds,the time your on about he wasnt hurt he was kicked in the balls and the ref missed it actually.

callaway92

Bisping via Submission

Nice to meet some of the boards lads before the event. Hope ye enjoyed it.

The main event was an absolute cracker as was the Mike Perry fights. Honestly don't want to go to a card at those times again though. It was tough going for a couple of the fights. In work today and in bits haha.

Met Gegard Mousasi at the airport yesterday and he stopped for a chat - Seemed very nice if slightly boring perhaps! His personality never seems to change!

TimRiggins

Henderson via Decision

hendo111 wrote: »

@mrkiscool2 err no Hendo was never in any harm for the 5 rounds,the time your on about he wasnt hurt he was kicked in the balls and the ref missed it actually.

I think thats enough internet for you today, Dan.

DrPhilG

Great event after the opening snoozer.

Great seat too. Apart from the fella falling asleep on my shoulder.

shrapnel222

Henderson via Decision

callaway92 wrote: »

The main event was an absolute cracker as was the Mike Perry fights. Honestly don't want to go to a card at those times again though. It was tough going for a couple of the fights. In work today and in bits haha.

!

really??thought it was a pile of shite myself. apart from the 2 knockdowns, it was rubbish. How anyone, especially a slow and broken 46 year old, can go 5 rounds, lose, and still look like he's just walked out of training session is beyond me. He was gassed after round 1, his kicks wouldn't hurt a child, yet Bisping couldn't find a way to finish him in 5 rounds of turgid stick and move.

callaway92

Bisping via Submission

shrapnel222 wrote: »

really??thought it was a pile of shite myself. apart from the 2 knockdowns, it was rubbish. How anyone, especially a slow and broken 46 year old, can go 5 rounds, lose, and still look like he's just walked out of training session is beyond me. He was gassed after round 1, his kicks wouldn't hurt a child, yet Bisping couldn't find a way to finish him in 5 rounds of turgid stick and move.

Ah come on - Especially with the atmosphere it made it a great fight. Calling it a pile of shíte is really weird - Do you enjoy the sport at all? Even the story of the fight made it great.

Just behind Perry v Roberts as the FOTN for me.

shrapnel222

Henderson via Decision

callaway92 wrote: »

Ah come on - Especially with the atmosphere it made it a great fight. Calling it a pile of shíte is really weird - Do you enjoy the sport at all? Even the story of the fight made it great.

Just behind Perry v Roberts as the FOTN for me.

Those 2 knockdowns made that fight somewhat exciting, the rest was dross, and yes i do really enjoy the sport.

didn't watch the early prelims so will look that fight up.

callaway92

Bisping via Submission

shrapnel222 wrote: »

Those 2 knockdowns made that fight somewhat exciting, the rest was dross, and yes i do really enjoy the sport.

didn't watch the early prelims so will look that fight up.

Ok so. Nice to see differing opinions I spose.

hendo111

Hendo Bisping was a pile of ****? ffs ive seen it all now,the same 46 year old who ko'd lombard dead only a few months ago (something nobody has done) It wasnt a classic in terms of the actual exchanges but a pile of ****? you must've started watching mma when at UFC 202 with them standards if your expecting wars like McGregor Diaz every fight you'll be in for a surprise.

shrapnel222

Henderson via Decision

hendo111 wrote: »

Hendo Bisping was a pile of ****? ffs ive seen it all now,the same 46 year old who ko'd lombard dead only a few months ago (something nobody has done) It wasnt a classic in terms of the actual exchanges but a pile of ****? you must've started watching mma when at UFC 202 with them standards if your expecting wars like McGregor Diaz every fight you'll be in for a surprise.

what has the previous fight got to do with this fight?

Apart from the 2 knockdowns, please tell me what henderson brought to the fight? nothing. he was gassed after the 1st round, managed just about to connect the right in round 2 and then just backed away and away and away for 3 rounds doing absolutely nothing, hoping to land that right. His leg kicks were a complete joke, and his jabs were just moving air pretending to actually fight until he got a chance to throw his only weapon.

As for Bisping, come on! he dominated that fight in a complete lacklustre and boring manner. jab jab. combo back away. 4 rounds of controlled, dominant fighting, but incredibly dull, especially against such a one dimensional, exhausted fighter like Hendo (that was definitely one fight too many for the legend).

hendo111

Hendo was not gassed after the first round,he arguably won the 5th round imo,fair play if it wasnt your taste Im not gonna try change your opinion,I was entertained anyways.

callaway92

Bisping via Submission

shrapnel222 wrote: »

what has the previous fight got to do with this fight?

Apart from the 2 knockdowns, please tell me what henderson brought to the fight? nothing. he was gassed after the 1st round, managed just about to connect the right in round 2 and then just backed away and away and away for 3 rounds doing absolutely nothing, hoping to land that right. His leg kicks were a complete joke, and his jabs were just moving air pretending to actually fight until he got a chance to throw his only weapon.

As for Bisping, come on! he dominated that fight in a complete lacklustre and boring manner. jab jab. combo back away. 4 rounds of controlled, dominant fighting, but incredibly dull, especially against such a one dimensional, exhausted fighter like Hendo (that was definitely one fight too many for the legend).

He doesn't throw leg kicks to cause damage, he used them for distance control (prob to set up big haymakers). They are ugly but a fine strategy.

Mellor

Bisping via Submission

callaway92 wrote: »

He doesn't throw leg kicks to cause damage, he used them for distance control (prob to set up big haymakers). They are ugly but a fine strategy.

Using kicks for distance control is grand if you want to keep the fight on the outside, but this is the way Bisping wanted the fight to go. Dan needs him to press in so he can throw the H-bomb.
I don't remember him setting up any haymakers with those kicks, maybe I'm forgetting some. But they were mostly thrown as random single kicks. Most there to facilitate him catching his breath.

As was the 2 min rest when he caught a kick in the balls.

JJayoo

Bisping via Decision

What are the chances that the winner of Wonderboy vs woodly will challenge Bisping to a superfight?

Outlaw Pete

Nice to see Bisping get his revenge. Was deserved.

EagererBeaver

JJayoo wrote: »

What are the chances that the winner of Wonderboy vs woodly will challenge Bisping to a superfight?

Unlikely I imagine. Too many options at middle, especially after bisping ripped them apart on air. Neither Woodley or Wonderboy have the kind of star power needed to make that fight (yet).

Subcomandante Marcos

Henderson via Decision

Mellor wrote: »

Using kicks for distance control is grand if you want to keep the fight on the outside, but this is the way Bisping wanted the fight to go. Dan needs him to press in so he can throw the H-bomb.
I don't remember him setting up any haymakers with those kicks, maybe I'm forgetting some. But they were mostly thrown as random single kicks. Most there to facilitate him catching his breath.

As was the 2 min rest when he caught a kick in the balls.

He throws half hearted mid level kicks to get the other guy to drop their hands so he can throw an overhand. It's not a terrible idea tbf.

Subcomandante Marcos

Henderson via Decision

JJayoo wrote: »

What are the chances that the winner of Wonderboy vs woodly will challenge Bisping to a superfight?

No. Just no.

Bisping can sit on the couch until Dana decides which of the top 4 gets to decapitate him.

Outlaw Pete

I wanna see Nick Diaz fight Bisping.

I think Nick would get battered but would be a fight I'd wanna see nonetheless.

Earlier this year they had this exchange:


https://twitter.com/bisping/status/704159339116941313

Wrongway1985

Bisping via Decision

It's been 5 years since Nick won a fight I just wanna see him get back in there against a top 10 at welterweight Lorenz Larkin or Robbie Lawler 2 would be my preference. GSP is probably more likely but if people remember that fight zzzzzzzzzz.

Outlaw Pete

Wrongway1985 wrote: »

GSP is probably more likely but if people remember that fight zzzzzzzzzz.

The nurse spiked him!!! :mad:

MartyDublin

Rockhold back in for rematch then roxkhold and if weidman can put a run together a rematch.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The nurse spiked him!!! :mad:

WTF???

"Hey Nick, someone from your opponents team wants to give you an I.V."
"Sure!"

How the feck do you agree to something like that, the night before a fight?

Swashbuckler

Bisping via Submission

Hail 2 Da Chimp wrote:

How the feck do you agree to something like that, the night before a fight?

Presumably he was stoned off his t*ts.

So after finally re-watching the event replay last night I scored it 47-47, giving Hendo 10-8 for Rd1, 10-9 Rd2 and Bisping taking Rd3,4,5.

I was at it live and on the night (full of drink and bias) I was convinced Hendo won it, but after re-watching and actually scoring the rounds I came to a draw.
I would have loving to see Hendo connect with that follow up in round 1 when Bisping hit the floor, if that connected it was lights out again. Fair play to Bisping though he took 2 big shots and some solid g&p and recovered to edge out a win.

I think if all falls into place Bisping v Weidman would be a good fight and winnable for Bisping.

Wrongway1985

Bisping via Decision

Of all the fights I thought would be discussed again the Martins Santos bout is up in controversy, Martins team are looking to get the result overturned as one of the Judges was absent for the whole first round and only appeared with nearly half a minute gone in the second round.

On the night snoozefest aside I scored it for Martins and can see some mediascores in the link below 6 had Santos 4 a draw and 8 for Martins. Judge Mullen is the Judge in question and his award of the second round to Santos was clearly pivotal to Santos getting the nod.

http://mmadecisions.com/decision/7368/Leonardo-Santos-vs-Adriano-Martins

Mellor

Bisping via Submission

The media are pretty split on the that one. Hard to make a case with that.

A judge missing a round is crazy obviously, but that round went to Santos on the other two cards. He seen most of rd2 so that score will probably stand.

Best he can hope for is to void the first score and go with a 19-19 for a split draw.