Quays route for cycleway agreed

monument

Chuchote wrote: »

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

No, it's not. That's the new group opposing College Green (which Dublin Town are not doing).

http://www.dublintown.ie/who-we-are/

EDIT: There's not much there. It's a BID, which is explained here: http://www.dublincity.ie/bid-business-improvement-district-scheme

EDIT #2: Dublin Town also has a corporate site: http://www.wearedublintown.ie/who-we-are/overview

Chuchote

Is 'Dublin Town' a thing? London Town, yes; but I've never heard Dublin called anything but Dublin City.

Interesting board of directors http://www.wearedublintown.ie/who-we-are/staff-the-board/ from the first to the last

monument

DublinTown Board of Directors

• Ray Hernan, Chairman -- head of Arnotts, a Weston family company -- car park owners
• Ross McMahon, Company Secretary, David McMahon & Company
• Noel Flynn, Treasurer, FFA Chartered Accountants
• Paul Barry, McDonalds
• Philip Bergin, Penneys -- partly owned by a Weston family company
• Ciaran Tuite, The Ilac Centre -- car park owners
• Greg Devitt, Stephen’s Green Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Rose Kenny, Dublin City Council
• Lorcan Lynch, The Flowing Tide
• Derek Mc Donnell, Jervis Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Clare Tynan, Le Bon Crubeen/Celtic Lodge
• Lorcan O’Connor, Carrolls Gifts
• Vincent O’Gorman, The Westbury Hotel
• Stephen Sealey, Brown Thomas -- a Weston family company -- sell rights to car park to use their name
• Cól Campbell, Bewleys
• Alan Campbell, The Bankers Bar
• Cllr. Ciarán Cuffe, Dublin City Council
• Cllr. Mannix Flynn, Dublin City Council

Weston family also own the department store in Amsterdam which has held off further car restrictions there.

Ray Hernan was also Financial Officer at Brown Thomas, so he had that link before they took over Arnotts in the recent past. He has also held positions in Ryanair -- we know what that company's boss thinks of cyclists.

Just saying. Just some context behind the companies and names.

buffalo

Chuchote wrote: »

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

You're probably thinking of the Dublin City Traders’ Alliance, involving Brown Thomas, Arnotts and the Jervis and Ilac shopping centres.

DanDublin1982

Chuchote wrote: »

Is 'Dublin Town' a thing? London Town, yes; but I've never heard Dublin called anything but Dublin City.

Interesting board of directors http://www.wearedublintown.ie/who-we-are/staff-the-board/ from the first to the last

Everyone out my way calls the city centre 'town' (not Dublin Town mind, just town). I presume that's where they're coming from.

brocbrocach

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

Everyone out my way calls the city centre 'town' (not Dublin Town mind, just town). I presume that's where they're coming from.

Rollin down through Dublin town
Comin from the Northside headin southbound
The glare of the city .... da da da da da da

Spanish Eyes

My North Co. Dublin friends call it "going to Dublin". What!

It's going in to town dears.

Chuchote

DanDublin1982 wrote: »

Everyone out my way calls the city centre 'town' (not Dublin Town mind, just town). I presume that's where they're coming from.

Oh yes, it was always 'town'. In my youth the prosperous populace of Dalkey would hop on the Number 8 to 'go in to town' and shop for children's shoes in Bradley's in Nassau Street (free balloon! free foot X-ray where you could look at your bones without any fear of future cancers!), tweed jackets and yellow cotton string gloves in Switzer's in Grafton Street and coats in Collette Modes in George's Street, followed by a quick book shop in Hodges Figgis and a fresh salmon sandwich on thick batch bread and glass of Guinness (red lemonade for the sproglets) in Neary's, then back on the 8 and home.

But 'Dublin Town'? Sheesh!

monument

One councillor yesterday said cyclists should just dismount for the 450 metre pinch point!... http://irishcycle.com/2016/10/06/mixed-views-on-removing-cars-off-quays-for-bus-and-bicycle-priority/

Some fairly strong support for the project as well as it having its critics -- it was a mixed bag and that was not very clear from The Irish Times report.

Chuchote

monument wrote: »

One councillor yesterday said cyclists should just dismount for the 450 metre pinch point!... http://irishcycle.com/2016/10/06/mixed-views-on-removing-cars-off-quays-for-bus-and-bicycle-priority/

Some fairly strong support for the project as well as it having its critics -- it was a mixed bag and that was not very clear from The Irish Times report.

I dismount happily enough at pinch points, but if everyone were to do it it would be more like a clamp point for the cars following!

buffalo

Chuchote wrote: »

I dismount happily enough at pinch points, but if everyone were to do it it would be more like a clamp point for the cars following!

My only dismount points are where cyclists have not been considered - short-cuts through pedestrian zones, kissing gates along the canal, etc. It would be pretty ridiculous to build dedicated cycling infrastructure which didn't allow for cycling!

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

What is the story with Irish political representatives...

We were stuck with two unconnected Luas lines for 13 years now they want to build a liffey cycle super highway with a 0.5 km gap in the middle where cyclists must dismount and walk. A pointless waste of time if they go with that route.

Infuriating :mad:

Where's the walkative gap in the middle? :eek:

monument wrote: »

DublinTown Board of Directors

• Ray Hernan, Chairman -- head of Arnotts, a Weston family company -- car park owners
• Ross McMahon, Company Secretary, David McMahon & Company
• Noel Flynn, Treasurer, FFA Chartered Accountants
• Paul Barry, McDonalds
• Philip Bergin, Penneys -- partly owned by a Weston family company
• Ciaran Tuite, The Ilac Centre -- car park owners
• Greg Devitt, Stephen’s Green Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Rose Kenny, Dublin City Council
• Lorcan Lynch, The Flowing Tide
• Derek Mc Donnell, Jervis Shopping Centre -- car park owners
• Clare Tynan, Le Bon Crubeen/Celtic Lodge
• Lorcan O’Connor, Carrolls Gifts
• Vincent O’Gorman, The Westbury Hotel
• Stephen Sealey, Brown Thomas -- a Weston family company -- sell rights to car park to use their name
• Cól Campbell, Bewleys
• Alan Campbell, The Bankers Bar
• Cllr. Ciarán Cuffe, Dublin City Council
• Cllr. Mannix Flynn, Dublin City Council

Weston family also own the department store in Amsterdam which has held off further car restrictions there.

Ray Hernan was also Financial Officer at Brown Thomas, so he had that link before they took over Arnotts in the recent past. He has also held positions in Ryanair -- we know what that company's boss thinks of cyclists.

Just saying. Just some context behind the companies and names.

Hm

Eamonnator

I partook in a Red C Poll about this yesterday.
Even though I don't live in "Dublin Town", I gave this project my full support.
You're welcome!

magicbastarder

Deedsie wrote: »

We were stuck with two unconnected Luas lines for 13 years now

off topic, but there are valid concerns as to whether luas cross city is a good idea - whether it will inconvenience more bus users than it will 'convenience' luas users.

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

off topic, but there are valid concerns as to whether luas cross city is a good idea - whether it will inconvenience more bus users than it will 'convenience' luas users.

Yeah, I live on the Green Line and have all my in-laws on the Red Line, so I'm very much in favour, but I've never looked into whether it's the upsides outweigh the downsides.

mcgratheoin

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yeah, I live on the Green Line and have all my in-laws on the Red Line, so I'm very much in favour, but I've never looked into whether it's the upsides outweigh the downsides.

In-laws on the other line, I assume that means you're in favour of keeping them separate?

monument

Eamonnator wrote: »

I partook in a Red C Poll about this yesterday.
Even though I don't live in "Dublin Town", I gave this project my full support.
You're welcome!

Do you remember how they phrased the question/s about the route and the detour?

magicbastarder wrote: »

off topic, but there are valid concerns as to whether luas cross city is a good idea - whether it will inconvenience more bus users than it will 'convenience' luas users.

I think the Luas could and maybe should have went around TCD but concerns are academic at this stage.

Eamonnator

monument wrote: »

Do you remember how they phrased the question/s about the route and the detour?.

They started off by asking how often I visited different shopping centres and shopping areas in Dublin.(Blanchardstown, Dundrum S.C., North City centre, South City centre etc.)
How often, I visited these places.
Then what mode of transport I used: bike, car, Luas, Dart, Bus, Train.
How often I used these.
I was shown a map of the proposed project.
I was asked how it would impact on my use of the area, would I visit the area more or less often.
A few more questions, that I can't remember.
There was a comment bit at the end, that I completed.

Carawaystick

monument wrote: »

I think the Luas could and maybe should have went around TCD but concerns are academic at this stage.

It does go around TCD. It sure doesn't go through it.



The college green plaza is a separate thing to the tram line. And it will impact on public transport.

Will there be any access for cyclists in the Liberties to get to the cycle route other than by Church st bridge or Military road?

Moflojo

Chuchote wrote: »

Dublin Town is a bunch of people who own car parks, yes?

This agglomeration of studies has some figures http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2015/03/the-complete-business-case-for-converting-street-parking-into-bike-lanes/387595/ including one on Dublin…

Further to Chuchote's excellent link above, here is the direct link to the Dublin study referenced therein, which is a report on shopper travel behaviour in Dublin city centre - specifically Grafton Street and Henry Street. One of the big takeaways from the study is how much the traders overestimated the value of car & Luas shoppers, and how much they underestimated bus, pedestrian and cycle shoppers.

http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=comlinkoth

DublinTown purports to represent all business interests in Dublin city centre, including pubs, restaurants, and cafes - not just retailers. Given the data from the survey above, which suggests only around 10% of shoppers travel by car, one can assume that an even lower percentage of those coming to the city centre for pubs, restaurants and cafes travel by car.

In conclusion, >90% of the customers for businesses that DublinTown represents are not travelling into the city by car, but DublinTown will be damned if those travelling by car are inconvenienced in any way.

Oh, and the fact that >30% of DublinTown's board members have vested interests in private car parks is completely irrelevant. Are you guys trying to suggest some kind of bias?

monument

Carawaystick wrote: »

It does go around TCD. It sure doesn't go through it.



The college green plaza is a separate thing to the tram line. And it will impact on public transport.

Will there be any access for cyclists in the Liberties to get to the cycle route other than by Church st bridge or Military road?

I meant around the other way, the east side.

College Green plaza is very much so linked to Luas -- the right turn junction would have been only been able to handle very few routes if the north-south route with Luas and buses was to be kept moving. This was capacity-wise and also a hazard to cyclists. The RPA were at one point trying to suggest a cycling ban around here -- not sure if it was the council or the NTA that told them no way, but they were told that.

The planning for Luas really had loads of failings and the RPA for ages were trying to maintain there'd be no need even for a bus gate at College Green.

Re access to the Liberties from the Liffey Cycle Route -- Watling Street should be seen as an important link and at least contra-flow, if not a two-way cycle path should be provided. I've looked for it and will be pushing it again.

monument

Moflojo wrote: »

Further to Chuchote's excellent link above, here is the direct link to the Dublin study referenced therein, which is a report on shopper travel behaviour in Dublin city centre - specifically Grafton Street and Henry Street. One of the big takeaways from the study is how much the traders overestimated the value of car & Luas shoppers, and how much they underestimated bus, pedestrian and cycle shoppers.

http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=comlinkoth

DublinTown purports to represent all business interests in Dublin city centre, including pubs, restaurants, and cafes - not just retailers. Given the data from the survey above, which suggests only around 10% of shoppers travel by car, one can assume that an even lower percentage of those coming to the city centre for pubs, restaurants and cafes travel by car.

In conclusion, >90% of the customers for businesses that DublinTown represents are not travelling into the city by car, but DublinTown will be damned if those travelling by car are inconvenienced in any way.

Oh, and the fact that >30% of DublinTown's board members have vested interests in private car parks is completely irrelevant. Are you guys trying to suggest some kind of bias?

There was actually a new survey presented to the transport committee yesterday which also found only 10% of shoppers coming by car and DublinTown and a few councillors, disliked its findings. I will be covering it, but it's worth watching the webcast recording.

NiallBoo

A big step forward.

...but am I the only one that thinks taxis shouldn't be allowed on this?

Chuchote

Deedsie wrote: »

In an ideal world but they are public transport so for now they definitely should be included.

And there are enough groups opposing Option 7 without adding taxi drivers into the mix.

When taxis were allowed in bus lanes I think it was before PD 'deregulation', and the few taxis had plates that cost thousands? Now it's everyone who loses work but still has a car, as far as I can see.

Moflojo

monument wrote: »

There was actually a new survey presented to the transport committee yesterday which also found only 10% of drivers coming by car and DublinTown and a few councillors, disliked its findings. I will be covering it, but it's worth watching the webcast recording.

Thanks monument, I had a quick look through the webcast (first time doing that, didn't realise it was available or so convenient) and there seems to be a real muddying-the-waters tactic by the opponents to the scheme. The opponents were simply rejecting the report's findings out of hand and suggesting the report, by an independent research company, was biased in favour of the transport proposals.

Fuppin' politics, wha?

NiallBoo

Deedsie wrote: »

In an ideal world but they are public transport so for now they definitely should be included.

And there are enough groups opposing Option 7 without adding taxi drivers into the mix.

Public...yes but not so sustainable.
still a very big cause of congestion and IMO not really deserving of promotion in that bracket.

Fair point though about picking your battles.

Carawaystick

monument wrote: »

I meant around the other way, the east side.

I was being a bit Tongue in Cheek,

monument wrote: »

College Green plaza is very much so linked to Luas -- the right turn junction would have been only been able to handle very few routes if the north-south route with Luas and buses was to be kept moving. This was capacity-wise and also a hazard to cyclists. The RPA were at one point trying to suggest a cycling ban around here -- not sure if it was the council or the NTA that told them no way, but they were told that.

but ABP gave permission for the tramline to go ahead without any mitigation on College green. They were too busy worryin their superanuated backsides about a tram halt on Dawson st...

monument wrote: »

Re access to the Liberties from the Liffey Cycle Route -- Watling Street should be seen as an important link and at least contra-flow, if not a two-way cycle path should be provided. I've looked for it and will be pushing it again.

Bridgefoot st has loads of space, its 3 lanes wide(one for parking) up from the quay to the Dual carriageway, and a lane could be taken from the queen st bridge, making vehicular traffic use Benburb st and the James Joyce bridge to go up the Liffey. But again the whole thing is done piecemeal, like the bachelors walk car ban proposal, or the college green traffic management proposal happening long after the tramline planning.

magicbastarder

monument wrote: »

I will be covering it, but it's worth watching the webcast recording.

do you have a link to it?

monument

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you have a link to it?

Here's the overall meeting webcast link, select from the agenda to pick an item to watch

https://dublincity.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/245944

Carawaystick wrote: »

but ABP gave permission for the tramline to go ahead without any mitigation on College green. They were too busy worryin their superanuated backsides about a tram halt on Dawson st...

Agreed, ABP have a lot to answer for.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Bridgefoot st has loads of space, its 3 lanes wide(one for parking) up from the quay to the Dual carriageway, and a lane could be taken from the queen st bridge, making vehicular traffic use Benburb st and the James Joyce bridge to go up the Liffey. But again the whole thing is done piecemeal, like the bachelors walk car ban proposal, or the college green traffic management proposal happening long after the tramline planning.

Queen Street -- Liam Mellows Bridge -- Bridgefoot Street is part of the BRT route from Blanch to UCD which is currently in pre-planning. It will make the route two-way and hopefully they won't try to legally exclude cycling over the bridge. On both streets after the bridge there's space for cycle paths, if that's a priority for the NTA.

I think the east side of Church Street -- Bridge Street -- High Street could be both suitable for (low number of junctions) and have the space for a two-way cycle path. But it's a battle for another day after the Liffey route goes some way of proving itself.

tomasrojo

Speaking of the Luas, cycling up around Parnell Street might well get worse.
http://irishcycle.com/2016/10/10/luas-cross-city-plan-for-parnell-street-puts-priority-on-lanes-for-cars-removes-cycle-lanes/