RAW Superthread

CastorTroy

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is Charlotte due back?

Was just replying to the previous comment. No idea when she's due back. Rumble would make more sense if she's cleared, though I guess returns won't be the same with no fans

J. Marston

beakerjoe wrote: »

The decline continues.

Id love AEW to go head to head with Raw or Smackdown. Just to see what woukd happen. AEW at this stage have a steady viewership and Raws is suffering. WWEs December programing habits are predictable, while you never know what will go down on Dynamite.

When fans return it will be interesting to see their reactions to WWEs efforts. Can you imagine fans ****ting on the Orton Wyatt feud? Or chanting boring at yet another Nia Jax push?

WWE has serious issues that arent being addressed and now the new kid on the block will put them to the sword slowly.

Khan was dead right, the balance has shifted.

The same thing that happened TNA 10 years ago, they'd immediately regret it and move back to Wednesdays after a few weeks. TNA made that move after years of steadily building themselves and still got crushed.

AEW have a steady viewership but it is steady between 700-800k viewers. The biggest advertised angle in Dynamite's history with a new world champion defecting and Sting's return interview still couldn't crack a million.

They should keep focusing on wittling away NXT's viewers and grind them into cancellation, if they can, and make Wednesdays their own.

oldtimeyfella

beakerjoe wrote: »

The decline continues.

Id love AEW to go head to head with Raw or Smackdown. Just to see what woukd happen. AEW at this stage have a steady viewership and Raws is suffering. WWEs December programing habits are predictable, while you never know what will go down on Dynamite.

When fans return it will be interesting to see their reactions to WWEs efforts. Can you imagine fans ****ting on the Orton Wyatt feud? Or chanting boring at yet another Nia Jax push?

WWE has serious issues that arent being addressed and now the new kid on the block will put them to the sword slowly.

Khan was dead right, the balance has shifted.

AEW aren't ready just yet but their run has been very impressive and it is definitely starting to effect WWE. Once it gets into younger wrestlers heads that the dream isn't a WWE contract any more then they are really ****ed.


Guys from the 90s/00s are going to start getting too old/too beatne up/dying off and WWE will have nothing other than the roster that they have spent the last decade or more hobbling for fear that they will get too big for the company.


You think anyone will be tuning in in 5 years time to watch Xavier Woods wrestle Braun Strowman? Also, stop trying to make Roman a thing. No one cares about him but the most rabid WWE fans.

RollieFingers

Flicked onto Raw last night while the ads were on during the darts.

Saw Matt Riddle asking a puppet to autograph a carrot.

Quickly went back to the darts.

Agent Coulson

Vince is going to throw all storylines out the window now and just react to those ratings calling in the retired big guns to promo those ratings up or Himself, Shane and Steph will return to TV.

oldtimeyfella

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Vince is going to throw all storylines out the window now and just react to those ratings calling in the retired big guns to promo those ratings up or Himself, Shane and Steph will return to TV.

Another "we're going to listen to the fans!" promo that will change absolutely nothing.



It's early days but they are in bother because they have real competition for the first time in 20 years.

ThePott

Well let's not forget that last time the ratings slumped we got the introduction of Retribution and Raw Underground.
So can't wait to see what they introduce this time.

Yeah I expect a Vince to make "major announcement" on Raw tweet from WWE in the next few days. Their usual thing to do to pop a rating.

Agent Coulson

Last weeks AEW beat this weeks RAW in the key demo so Vince will try something dramatic.

Lithium93_

https://twitter.com/SeanRossSapp/status/1339246258960084993

Coincidentally enough, 2 years tomorrow since The McMahon family gave their You the fans are the authority spiel.

Although being brutally honest, and rewriting it, what they should've said was, we're a multi billion dollar company, with the best (debatable) writers, armed with the most insanely talented roster (really just hoovering up any shiny new pro wrestlers to keep anyone else from having them) ever assembled but we're held hostage by the ever changing whims of a man in his 70's who doesn't have a god damn clue, but unfortunately has THE FINAL SAY on everything.

J. Marston

Remember the short-lived mandate where every match was 2-out-of-3 falls?

CastorTroy

And all those only lasted a couple of months at most, maybe.
I wonder what would happen if Vince didn't change scripts at the last minute.

Remember the no rematch for titles yet however many times have we seen Drew w vs Randy. Don't even have to be the champ losing to have a rematch. Seems you can just challenge for the title multiple times in a row

oldtimeyfella

Lithium93_ wrote: »

https://twitter.com/SeanRossSapp/status/1339246258960084993

Coincidentally enough, 2 years tomorrow since The McMahon family gave their You the fans are the authority spiel.

Although being brutally honest, and rewriting it, what they should've said was, we're a multi billion dollar company, with the best (debatable) writers, armed with the most insanely talented roster (really just hoovering up any shiny new pro wrestlers to keep anyone else from having them) ever assembled but we're held hostage by the ever changing whims of a man in his 70's who doesn't have a god damn clue, but unfortunately has THE FINAL SAY on everything.

It isn't going to change a whole lot once Vince is gone.



NXT is fairly boring now because Hunter ran out of ideas and AEW murders them in the ratings every week. They aren't going to run the main card like that.


People are just losing interest in the WWE style and they don't seem willing to change it.

Smacruairi

To be fair I think people are just a bit burned out on wrestling in general. There is so much and it's relentless.

Loughc

Smacruairi wrote: »

To be fair I think people are just a bit burned out on wrestling in general. There is so much and it's relentless.

I wouldn’t worry about that for too much longer. WWE will get dumped from TV soon enough. So that’s Monday and Friday nights freed up.

oldtimeyfella

Smacruairi wrote: »

To be fair I think people are just a bit burned out on wrestling in general. There is so much and it's relentless.

Dynamite was the 2nd highest rated show on TV last Wednesday. People are tired of Sports Entertainment, not wrestling.

Loughc

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

Dynamite was the 2nd highest rated show on TV last Wednesday. People are tired of Sports Entertainment, not wrestling.

To be fair AEW is sports entertainment as well but they’ve got the perfect blend of storyline and in ring action.

LineOfBeauty

Loughc wrote: »

To be fair AEW is sports entertainment as well but they’ve got the perfect blend of storyline and in ring action.

What makes it sport entertainment? And what is sport entertainment aside from a term used by WWE people because they are embarrassed to call themselves wrestling promoters.

Loughc

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What makes it sport entertainment? And what is sport entertainment aside from a term used by WWE people because they are embarrassed to call themselves wrestling promoters.

What makes it Sports Entertainment is it’s a mix of storytelling and predeteRmined outcome. It’s not an out and out sport.

Wrestling is a legitimate sport professional wrestling is not.

LineOfBeauty

Loughc wrote: »

What makes it Sports Entertainment is it’s a mix of storytelling and predeteRmined outcome. It’s not an out and out sport.

Wrestling is a legitimate sport professional wrestling is not.

There's a name for what you described in paragraph 1. It's called Pro Wrestling, not some silly McMahon buzz word.

Loughc

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

There's a name for what you described in paragraph 1. It's called Pro Wrestling, not some silly McMahon buzz word.

It’s sports entertainment pal.

Insect Overlord

Loughc wrote: »

It’s sports entertainment pal.

Or, like, you know, Pro Wrestling...

Smacruairi

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Or, like, you know, Pro Wrestling...

Yeah the jericho mjf segment was totally not sports entertainment, all wrestling...

I enjoyed it but come on let's not split hairs here!

oldtimeyfella

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yeah the jericho mjf segment was totally not sports entertainment, all wrestling...

I enjoyed it but come on let's not split hairs here!

Are you referring to the segment that was called one of the performances of 2020 by a Pulitzer prize winning NYT journalist?


That's totally the same as Bray Wyatt in a cheesy Halloween mask being all spooky and whatnot, Roman Reigns insisting that he is totally important and really good you guys so take him seriosuly or a farting cuckold angle or whatever other ****e WWEs team of writers are churning out.

JP Liz V1

CastorTroy wrote: »

Unless there's a turn during the match then having Asuka and Charlotte lose would be crazy.
A shocking return for Kairi? So Nia can injure her again.

But it's going to be Natalya, isn't it?

Is Nattie on SD, or does that even matter anymore?

Smacruairi

oldtimeyfella wrote: »

Are you referring to the segment that was called one of the performances of 2020 by a Pulitzer prize winning NYT journalist?
/quote]

Yup, performance, entertainment, not wrestling... Kinda my point... Entertainment isn't a dirty word you know, it means fun and enjoyable!

ThePott

CastorTroy

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Is Nattie on SD, or does that even matter anymore?

Oh yeah forgot that. Though when it comes to Nattie, I tend not to remember her appearances.

JP Liz V1

CastorTroy wrote: »

Oh yeah forgot that. Though when it comes to Nattie, I tend not to remember her appearances.

Big RR return for Lana, eliminating Nattie and Nia, winning the ladies RR?

LineOfBeauty

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yeah the jericho mjf segment was totally not sports entertainment, all wrestling...

I enjoyed it but come on let's not split hairs here!

No, let's.

One brand proudly calls itself pro wrestling. The other brand invented a term which they've used for decades now that nobody, not even the most hard-core of their fanbase, uses. The other brand "tell stories" not do "wrasslin." The other brand have wondered aloud in the past if there was a way to simply get rid of the matches (you know, the wrestling part). So, no. One is distinctly pro wrestling, and everything that encompasses, the other can carry on being sports entertainment.

oldtimeyfella

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Big RR return for Lana, eliminating Nattie and Nia, winning the ladies RR?

Has Lana learned how to run the ropes yet?


Is Io Shirai still working for WWE? Why isn't she the ace of the division if she's still there?

Smacruairi

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

No, let's.

One brand proudly calls itself pro wrestling. The other brand invented a term which they've used for decades now that nobody, not even the most hard-core of their fanbase, uses. The other brand "tell stories" not do "wrasslin." The other brand have wondered aloud in the past if there was a way to simply get rid of the matches (you know, the wrestling part). So, no. One is distinctly pro wrestling, and everything that encompasses, the other can carry on being sports entertainment.

Matt Hardy can teleport and use drones, like in impact. One other lad puts his hands in his pockets while he does the graps. Maybe just like what you like but to the 90% of casuals out there, they're very similar entities. Sure how many of the lads have appeared in both companies now at this stage...

CastorTroy

Io is NXT champion.

Is Lana genuinely injured or taking time off or is she just being written off to free up the spot?

LineOfBeauty

Smacruairi wrote: »

Matt Hardy can teleport and use drones, like in impact. One other lad puts his hands in his pockets while he does the graps. Maybe just like what you like but to the 90% of casuals out there, they're very similar entities. Sure how many of the lads have appeared in both companies now at this stage...

And as stupid and dumb as those things are, the difference is when Tony Khan talks publicly he refers to his company as pro wrestling. Again, your sports entertainment quite literally does not exist outside of the minds of a few higher ups in WWE.

Smacruairi

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

And as stupid and dumb as those things are, the difference is when Tony Khan talks publicly he refers to his company as pro wrestling. Again, your sports entertainment quite literally does not exist outside of the minds of a few higher ups in WWE.

And yet a rose by any other name still smells as sweet. Call it the graps, rasslin, sports entertainment whatever, its all the same thing. it's not an M and S advert, it's lads and lassies (and sometimes a dinosaur) pretending to fight.

LineOfBeauty

Smacruairi wrote: »

And yet a rose by any other name still smells as sweet. Call it the graps, rasslin, sports entertainment whatever, its all the same thing. it's not an M and S advert, it's lads and lassies (and sometimes a dinosaur) pretending to fight.

If that's the case then why do you think Vince McMahon created the term sports entertainment?

And I don't think it's too much of a push to say that AEW would probably rather not be associated with the stench of that term and the connotations it has.

And what normal human being actually refers to pro wrestling as sports entertainment? "hey bud, you watching the big sports entertainment show tonight?" You'd be in a white van in double quick time.

Smacruairi

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

If that's the case then why do you think Vince McMahon created the term sports entertainment?

And I don't think it's too much of a push to say that AEW would probably rather not be associated with the stench of that term and the connotations it has.

And what normal human being actually refers to pro wrestling as sports entertainment? "hey bud, you watching the big sports entertainment show tonight?" You'd be in a white van in double quick time.

Its a marketing tool, you shouldn't let it trigger you so much...

Also the casual non watcher wouldn't call it pro wrestling or sports entertainment, they'd do what my mum does and call it the wwf, the way everyone calls it tippex rather than correction fluid.

LineOfBeauty

Smacruairi wrote: »

Its a marketing tool, you shouldn't let it trigger you so much...

Also the casual non watcher wouldn't call it pro wrestling or sports entertainment, they'd do what my mum does and call it the wwf, the way everyone calls it tippex rather than correction fluid.

I am triggered. I'm a pro wrestling fan, I have been for the overwhelming majority of my life. I'm not a sports entertainment fan. You can be a sports entertainment fan if you like and you can reside in the WWE Universe and whatever other made up garbage they've got going on, but I'm a pro wrestling fan and it's not the same thing.

Then you need to sit your mother down and have a talk with her about the pro wrestling world outside of WWE, and maybe mention how the panda people are actually the WWF.

ThePott

I think you'd need to clarify what makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment.
Vince used Sports Entertainment so that wrestling wouldn't face the same regulation as other competitive sports. So if other promotions and wrestling in general are not facing regulation then are they not sports entertainment as well?

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment?

Insect Overlord

Not all stouts are Guinness, but Guinness is the best-known brand.

Likewise, the biggest pro-wrestling company in the world calling itself "sports entertainment" does not mean you can call all the other companies by the same name.

ThePott

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Not all stouts are Guinness, but Guinness is the best-known brand.
Likewise, the biggest pro-wrestling company in the world calling itself "sports entertainment" does not mean you can call all the other companies by the same name.

That's not comparable at all as Guinness is a brand. That would only work if everyone called other promotions WWE. Or if someone put out a stout but insisted it wasn't, that it was a dark beer. That works for marketing but is deceptive. This whole argument to me is like the whole I don't read comic books I read graphic novels, that is an ill-definted distinction.

I'm asking very simply what makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment, because I guarantee AEW will have elements of both. It's not a catch all term. I don't care either way, I watch both and can enjoy both and don't care about what it calls itself, I'm just curious what people say.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

I think you'd need to clarify what makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment.
Vince used Sports Entertainment so that wrestling wouldn't face the same regulation as other competitive sports. So if other promotions and wrestling in general are not facing regulation then are they not sports entertainment as well?

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment?

Because sports entertainment is a completely made up thing. When it suits McMahon it's a way to dodge the sports boards and committees because "we're entertainment pal" and when it suits him when he's in negotiations for TV contracts it's "we do live sports pal." Ultimately, it's down to McMahon, who always found pro wrestling to be a "southern" thing, hates that what he's known for is "wrasslin'." He wants to be known as anything other than a pro wrestling promoter so much that he created a new term for it "sports entertainment" and has gone out of his way, to the point where the incomprehensible lexicon of WWE now saturates their TV product, to create a Universe in which WWE is anything but pro wrestling.

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment? Pro wrestling is a craft hundreds of years old that can encompass anything from Kobashi/Misawa, a man wrestling a bear, cages, bloody, hand gun gestures, anything and sports entertainment is a made up term to placate the ego of one man. That's the difference.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What makes something pro wrestling and not sports entertainment? Pro wrestling is a craft hundreds of years old that can encompass anything from Kobashi/Misawa, a man wrestling a bear, cages, bloody, hand gun gestures, anything and sports entertainment is a made up term to placate the ego of one man. That's the difference.

Of course it's made-up. Everything is made-up dude. Yes, it was made to avoid sports regulation but by that logic anyone not regulated as a sport is not pro wrestling. This isn't really an explanation of what it is.

If you're saying pro wrestling can encompass all of those things what makes AEW not sports entertainment and WWE sports entertainment. It seems like you're just using Sports Entertainment to classify the things you don't like and Pro Wrestling for the things you do like. That's not how definitions work.

The term is made up but half the stuff you mentioned has been present in WWE too so by that logic it is pro wrestling and not sports entertainment. Is it just sports entertainment because Vince says so and AEW is pro wrestling because they insist they are not sports entertainment.

In that case it's a meaningless label.

LineOfBeauty

ThePott wrote: »

Of course it's made-up. Everything is made-up dude. Yes, it was made to avoid sports regulation but by that logic anyone not regulated as a sport is not pro wrestling. This isn't really an explanation of what it is.

If you're saying pro wrestling can encompass all of those things what makes AEW not sports entertainment and WWE sports entertainment. It seems like you're just using Sports Entertainment to classify the things you don't like and Pro Wrestling for the things you do like. That's not how definitions work.

The term is made up but half the stuff you mentioned has been present in WWE too so by that logic it is pro wrestling and not sports entertainment. Is it just sports entertainment because Vince says so and AEW is pro wrestling because they insist they are not sports entertainment.

In that case it's a meaningless label.

I think you've completely misunderstood all of my points. Wrestling can be anything. Some things I hate deeply. I don't need to see a man work a bear. I don't need Matt Hardy teleporting. But if it happens on a wrestling show and they call it wrestling then sure, why not, it's a broad church. That's not a matter of "oh you like this so it's wrestling."

What I'm saying is that if Vince McMahon died in the morning (hypothetically) and WWE stopped using the term "Sports Entertainment (again, not going to happen) do you think anybody, fan, wrestler, or wrestling company, would use the term again (outside of irony or recapping a truly awful period in the history of WWE)? Of course they wouldn't.

So, in summarization, no AEW would not refer to themselves as sports entertainment. And, on a different topic than this, they are far more similar in terms of their presentation and overall booking style to other pro wrestling companies (both past and present) than they are to WWE.

ThePott

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So, in summarization, no AEW would not refer to themselves as sports entertainment. And, on a different topic than this, they are far more similar in terms of their presentation and overall booking style to other pro wrestling companies (both past and present) than they are to WWE.

I don't think I am missing your point. Would they use the term, probably not. Unless someone called for regulation, then I guarantee most places would clamour to say they were sports entertainment.

AEW has a different style certainly than WWE but styles evolve. I don't think you can compare current WWE to past WWE in some ways either. They are an alternative so they should be different, I just take issue with people doing mental gymnastics (not you specifically) saying sports entertainment and pro wrestling are vastly different.

I see far more people complaining about the sports entertainment label than l see WWE calling themselves sports entertainment too.

beakerjoe

Sports entertainment to me is just a marketing tool. Vince and WWWE use it to market wrestling. It doenst work, he is still in the wrestling business no matter what he calls it.

Its all wrestling.

TimesArrow

https://wrestlingnews.co/wwe-news/vince-mcmahon-is-looking-to-shake-things-up-again-this-monday-on-raw/

CastorTroy

Oh oh

The White Wolf

Carmella....ah c'mon ffs. A one note heel. Can't genuinely take that tweet seriously. Cesaro is just a go to name for such lists with the fandom, while Peyton and Garza are popular with the IWC.

oldtimeyfella

TimesArrow wrote: »

https://wrestlingnews.co/wwe-news/vince-mcmahon-is-looking-to-shake-things-up-again-this-monday-on-raw/

This should be hilarious. One week of jobbers winning matches that make no sense for them to win and Adam Cole gets the big call-up and is utterly buried by the second week in January.


The ratings barely change and Vince goes back to shoving Roman, Seth and Bray Wyatt In a Halloween Costume down peoples throats.