RAW Superthread

daithi1989

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

As a rule of thumb, triple threats are almost never great.

Honestly, why do you watch WWE? You have, for weeks now, given out about the product every week?

You gave out they don’t give new people a chance with the EC, and now complaining about a new match up with new talent!

LineOfBeauty

daithi1989 wrote: »

Honestly, why do you watch WWE? You have, for weeks now, given out about the product every week?

You gave out they don’t give new people a chance with the EC, and now complaining about a new match up with new talent!

What chances were give here? Lashley smashed 2 of them. Riddle is in a Title match after being destroyed by Lashley last week and losing this week. Telle how does that warrant a Title match?

Lacey Evans gets a Title match after a DQ finish.

Jeff Hardy is in a World Title match even though he lost clean on Raw this week.

What new talents are getting a chance in the Chamber? Randy Orton? The Miz? Jeff Hardy? Where are these new talents getting a chance on this show that you're seeing that I'm certainly not?

And telling people to stop watching WWE is a pretty dodgy move considering this week's Raw drew 1.7 million in Wrestlemania season, only 2 weeks after the Royal Rumble. It'll go down as an all bad Raw rating and the thing doesn't even have any sporting competition at the moment so I'd be wary about telling people to switch the thing off, they just might.

J. Marston

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What chances were give here? Lashley smashed 2 of them. Riddle is in a Title match after being destroyed by Lashley last week and losing this week. Telle how does that warrant a Title match?

Lacey Evans gets a Title match after a DQ finish.

Jeff Hardy is in a World Title match even though he lost clean on Raw this week.

What new talents are getting a chance in the Chamber? Randy Orton? The Miz? Jeff Hardy? Where are these new talents getting a chance on this show that you're seeing that I'm certainly not?

And telling people to stop watching WWE is a pretty dodgy move considering this week's Raw drew 1.7 million in Wrestlemania season, only 2 weeks after the Royal Rumble. It'll go down as an all bad Raw rating and the thing doesn't even have any sporting competition at the moment so I'd be wary about telling people to switch the thing off, they just might.

And?

LineOfBeauty

J. Marston wrote: »

And?

And what happens when people stop watching?

Do you want that to be explained?

beakerjoe

I catch up on Sky plus each week of both Raw and Smackdown. Smackdown being less than 2 hours helps and its not great, but watchable in parts. Raw has been so hard to sit through. 3 hours, even less direction than probably nay other period in WWE, its just awful. Like there are positives but man the positives get drowned in the negatives.

WWE has the most stacked line roster arguably assembled ever, Raw has some great talent, yet the Chamber match has Orton (yet again), Jeff Hardy (yet again......why does he do this to himself) and The Miz (adds zero from an in ring POV). I can take Styles Drew and Shaymo, but I am not excited for this one. Looks like a lame duck with Drew winning. Appears too predictable and uninspiring.

WWE has a ton of great females on their books, yet they persist with Lacey. Granted shes trying god bless her, but shes just such a novice. Becky and Bayley failed to get much out of her, can't see that changing with Flair or Asuka.

Lee Riddle and Lashley is fine. I dont mind triple threats personally.

New Day vs Retribution has very little heat and seems like its just going through the motions. Less matches, more promo's, angles please.

Shane McMahon has zero value. After being over used as a performer in the last 3/4 years to the abysmal Raw Underground flop, he does zero for me. Why should I be excited?

Orton v McInytre yet again. It wouldnt be hard to book a better show here. Do WWE creative wait until 1 hour before a show before panic booking? I get that Vince, an over the hill micro manager, is still at the helm, but book anything but this again. Orton v Drew, Owens v Reigns..... its over done to death.

I like Priest, glad hes doing well and being paired with a celeb and Miz and Morrison will do him no harm (Miz will put him over, Morrison can bump for him and he will get a little rub from the celeb association) I get that Bad Bunny is a big star, but he's got no real acting chops. Comes off very nervous and bland.... very wooden.

riffmongous wrote: »

Were Christian or Carlito there last night?

Carlito is a nice guy, but he needs to be ditched. He isnt good enough to be taking a spot that a newer talent could use.

Christian surely will team with Edge to take on Reigns and Uso, seems a natural fit.

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Why is Adam Pearce and Shane O Mac on Raw, underground fight club returning?

I did LOL at Nia

I suspect shenaigans here. Shane making it look like Pierces idea so when it some how blows up, Pierce gets the blame I think. God knows what they are doing though.

Overall a poor episode of Raw. Usual negatives : Over produced, soulless presentation. Camera cut after camera cut after camera cut. Same stars from the past used in a big match (Hardy, Orton, Miz etc, but Lee or Riddle in there at least, push Ali even). Soulless, heatless matches.

Its just a slog

LineOfBeauty

beakerjoe wrote: »

I catch up on Sky plus each week of both Raw and Smackdown. Smackdown being less than 2 hours helps and its not great, but watchable in parts. Raw has been so hard to sit through. 3 hours, even less direction than probably nay other period in WWE, its just awful. Like there are positives but man the positives get drowned in the negatives.

WWE has the most stacked line roster arguably assembled ever, Raw has some great talent, yet the Chamber match has Orton (yet again), Jeff Hardy (yet again......why does he do this to himself) and The Miz (adds zero from an in ring POV). I can take Styles Drew and Shaymo, but I am not excited for this one. Looks like a lame duck with Drew winning. Appears too predictable and uninspiring.

WWE has a ton of great females on their books, yet they persist with Lacey. Granted shes trying god bless her, but shes just such a novice. Becky and Bayley failed to get much out of her, can't see that changing with Flair or Asuka.

Lee Riddle and Lashley is fine. I dont mind triple threats personally.

New Day vs Retribution has very little heat and seems like its just going through the motions. Less matches, more promo's, angles please.

Shane McMahon has zero value. After being over used as a performer in the last 3/4 years to the abysmal Raw Underground flop, he does zero for me. Why should I be excited?

Orton v McInytre yet again. It wouldnt be hard to book a better show here. Do WWE creative wait until 1 hour before a show before panic booking? I get that Vince, an over the hill micro manager, is still at the helm, but book anything but this again. Orton v Drew, Owens v Reigns..... its over done to death.

I like Priest, glad hes doing well and being paired with a celeb and Miz and Morrison will do him no harm (Miz will put him over, Morrison can bump for him and he will get a little rub from the celeb association) I get that Bad Bunny is a big star, but he's got no real acting chops. Comes off very nervous and bland.... very wooden.





Carlito is a nice guy, but he needs to be ditched. He isnt good enough to be taking a spot that a newer talent could use.

Christian surely will team with Edge to take on Reigns and Uso, seems a natural fit.




I suspect shenaigans here. Shane making it look like Pierces idea so when it some how blows up, Pierce gets the blame I think. God knows what they are doing though.

Overall a poor episode of Raw. Usual negatives : Over produced, soulless presentation. Camera cut after camera cut after camera cut. Same stars from the past used in a big match (Hardy, Orton, Miz etc, but Lee or Riddle in there at least, push Ali even). Soulless, heatless matches.

Its just a slog

Like there's a million things you could say about last night's Raw but just 2 things to focus in on because I do think it really hits home 2 of the things wrong with the product at the moment.

The 1st is how are some of these people who are losing clean (and have been losing matches for weeks) getting Title shots? Like wins and losses are just completely irrelevant so if they don't matter why should anyone care about who wins or loses a match?

The 2nd thing is Raw Underground was a thing they built up, a thing that happened every week. It disappeared, Shane returns, nobody mentions it. Like it was all a fever dream. How dumb do they think we are?

TimesArrow

Has strowman appeared on the last two Raws? Shows up at the rumble and then nowhere to be seen after

beakerjoe

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Like there's a million things you could say about last night's Raw but just 2 things to focus in on because I do think it really hits home 2 of the things wrong with the product at the moment.

The 1st is how are some of these people who are losing clean (and have been losing matches for weeks) getting Title shots? Like wins and losses are just completely irrelevant so if they don't matter why should anyone care about who wins or loses a match?

The 2nd thing is Raw Underground was a thing they built up, a thing that happened every week. It disappeared, Shane returns, nobody mentions it. Like it was all a fever dream. How dumb do they think we are?

Take Jeff Hardy for example. I know he wont win. He literal is just a name from yesterday year thats being wheeled out to make it seem like a big deal, yet he isnt a big deal in 2021. After 3 years of 50/50 booking, terrible feuds, and most recently losing clean to other victims of said booking, why should I care about him. Why would anyone believe in him to win. What would happen if he beat Drew (it be stupid that's what).

Miz isnt a main eventer. Yes he can speak, one of the few in WWE I enjoy speaking each week, but come on..... to quote Bruce, then the bell rang. Again ten years ago, like Jeff Hardy, he was a bigger deal than now. Right now he isnt believable as a champion (and he was pushing that back in the day too).

Orton is just there based off past glories. Granted he had a good six months last year, but him and Drew has been done to death. I dont wanna see it nor would anyone want him as Champion now.

AJ, has been booked better than most (not saying much is it, a low bar). I dont mind him in the match. He has more recent consecutive wins. A some whast believable challenger. Proof that some (just a little) rehab (granted its probably unintentional) can elevate most meandering stars.

Sheamus is feuding with Drew, I'll give him a pass if hes pushed hard before the match. Still a big stretch that he can be a believable challenger.

Drew is a star, but hes not got much to support him.

A sorry state of affairs.

beakerjoe

TimesArrow wrote: »

Has strowman appeared on the last two Raws? Shows up at the rumble and then nowhere to be seen after

He needs some form of character evolution/change or repackaging. Looks in good shape but he is damaged from past bookings.

TimesArrow

beakerjoe wrote: »

He needs some form of character evolution/change or repackaging. Looks in good shape but he is damaged from past bookings.

Oh wait.. maybe that’s it.. Drew v Braun at mania with Shane as Braun’s mouthpiece

LineOfBeauty

beakerjoe wrote: »

Take Jeff Hardy for example. I know he wont win. He literal is just a name from yesterday year thats being wheeled out to make it seem like a big deal, yet he isnt a big deal in 2021. After 3 years of 50/50 booking, terrible feuds, and most recently losing clean to other victims of said booking, why should I care about him. Why would anyone believe in him to win. What would happen if he beat Drew (it be stupid that's what).

Miz isnt a main eventer. Yes he can speak, one of the few in WWE I enjoy speaking each week, but come on..... to quote Bruce, then the bell rang. Again ten years ago, like Jeff Hardy, he was a bigger deal than now. Right now he isnt believable as a champion (and he was pushing that back in the day too).

Orton is just there based off past glories. Granted he had a good six months last year, but him and Drew has been done to death. I dont wanna see it nor would anyone want him as Champion now.

AJ, has been booked better than most (not saying much is it, a low bar). I dont mind him in the match. He has more recent consecutive wins. A some whast believable challenger. Proof that some (just a little) rehab (granted its probably unintentional) can elevate most meandering stars.

Sheamus is feuding with Drew, I'll give him a pass if hes pushed hard before the match. Still a big stretch that he can be a believable challenger.

Drew is a star, but hes not got much to support him.

A sorry state of affairs.

I know the joke today is that it's a match straight out of 2009 but it's the joke for a reason. And the thing is, outside of The Fiend (who, let's face it, is a gimmick attraction at best) and the part timers, those are probably their 6 top guys on Raw right now. How is that possible? With that roster? With a 20 million dollar training centre? Like we can sit here and dump on the product but every so often it hits you the degree to which they've mismanaged the product for like a decade.

Sirsok

The other side is if you do throw the likes of Lee or Riddle into the chamber and they lose clean in the ring people will complain.

All guys in the Chamber can take a loss without much hullaboloo , and considering there needs to be five pinfals or submissions it kind of makes sense considering their current situation

beakerjoe

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I know the joke today is that it's a match straight out of 2009 but it's the joke for a reason. And the thing is, outside of The Fiend (who, let's face it, is a gimmick attraction at best) and the part timers, those are probably their 6 top guys on Raw right now. How is that possible? With that roster? With a 20 million dollar training centre? Like we can sit here and dump on the product but every so often it hits you the degree to which they've mismanaged the product for like a decade.

A lot of the talent are stale, Hardy, Orton, Miz, Braun, Sheamus, Charlotte, Nia Jax, Wyatt, etc..... Give some time off, hell let Jeff go, fire Nia and Wyatt, (hell let Orton go) repackage Kofi (love to see a heel Kofi), Braun, hell anything, move Lee, Ricochet, Ali up to those spots, maybe promote Cole, Gargano, Balor...... freshen it up. Give new guys a chance with older hands like AJ, Asuka, Drew Sheamus, .... let them be themselves. Its not rocket science.

Look at AEW, smart sensible booking has made stars of jungle Boy, MJF, Darby Allin, Wardlow, Kingston, ..... its not that hard. Give others a chance. Less of the old repeated guys (Miz, Orton, Hardy), less of the ****e (Wyatt (awful wrestler), Nia, Lana, Lacey , Miz again).

beakerjoe

Sirsok wrote: »

The other side is if you do throw the likes of Lee or Riddle into the chamber and they lose clean in the ring people will complain.

All guys in the Chamber can take a loss without much hullaboloo , and considering there needs to be five pinfals or submissions it kind of makes sense considering their current situation

People can lose without losing clean in the Chamber, a lot more protection. Even clean loses, if booked well can elevate guys.

Look at Uso v Reigns for a WWE example, Uso lost but he was elevated despite the lose from a strong showing.

LineOfBeauty

Sirsok wrote: »

The other side is if you do throw the likes of Lee or Riddle into the chamber and they lose clean in the ring people will complain.

All guys in the Chamber can take a loss without much hullaboloo , and considering there needs to be five pinfals or submissions it kind of makes sense considering their current situation

And ye you don't want all your top guys taking pinfalls. But I would absolutely argue that, aside from Bobby Lashley and Wyatt, these are the 6 most pushed guys on that roster and that is scary.

And I said it on Boards last week and I'll say it again now in light of that rating. At any other time, WWE would've moved away from Edge. Nobody cares about Edge. Nobody is interested in this road to Wrestlemania because there's nothing interesting on it. They've booked themselves into a mess and they've no ready made stars to easily replace Edge with.

beakerjoe

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

And ye you don't want all your top guys taking pinfalls. But I would absolutely argue that, aside from Bobby Lashley and Wyatt, these are the 6 most pushed guys on that roster and that is scary.

And I said it on Boards last week and I'll say it again now in light of that rating. At any other time, WWE would've moved away from Edge. Nobody cares about Edge. Nobody is interested in this road to Wrestlemania because there's nothing interesting on it. They've booked themselves into a mess and they've no ready made stars to easily replace Edge with.

The story is the best they have got.

Sadly this is story is a year late, with no direction. The lack of choice from Edge tells you they are scrambling and that indecision is hurting the story too.

Bad Bunny is doing wild merch numbers if you believe the hype, Hes their best option to switch which says it all. The ratings tells us that Edge just isnt working.

riffmongous

beakerjoe wrote: »

Carlito is a nice guy, but he needs to be ditched. He isnt good enough to be taking a spot that a newer talent could use.

Christian surely will team with Edge to take on Reigns and Uso, seems a natural fit.

Could use.. but won't unfortunately, so until WWE changes how they present their newer talent I'd much rather see Carlito out there than cookie cutter NXT guy. It's a serious problem at the moment

beakerjoe

riffmongous wrote: »

Could use.. but won't unfortunately, so until WWE changes how they present their newer talent I'd much rather see Carlito out there than cookie cutter NXT guy. It's a serious problem at the moment

Define cookie cutter NXT guy?

Gimme an example

Id rather see most guys not used on Monday than a mid carder from 16 years ago.

Ricochet should be used more ahead to Carlito. Cedric Alexander, Ali, Dijackovic, Mia Yim, Tozowa, Gulak..... I dont want Carlito in 2021.

Its not the newer talents fault, its how they use them. Carlito would easily fall fowl of the same booking problems.

LineOfBeauty

riffmongous wrote: »

Could use.. but won't unfortunately, so until WWE changes how they present their newer talent I'd much rather see Carlito out there than cookie cutter NXT guy. It's a serious problem at the moment

This is the equivalent of wanting more Tito Santana in 1998.

beakerjoe

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

This is the equivalent of wanting more Tito Santana in 1998.

He had a decent push on his debut but it slowly all went down hill. By the end of his run he was forgettable at best.

Yeah hes in shape that surely will appeal to Vince, but beyond that, and coupled with modern era WWE booking..... no, just no.

PTH2009

Will the Fiend (now with a melted face mask) randomly appear in Randy Orton's EC pod ?

beakerjoe

PTH2009 wrote: »

Will the Fiend (now with a melted face mask) randomly appear in Randy Orton's EC pod ?

Yes....

Real question is, will anyone care?

riffmongous

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

This is the equivalent of wanting more Tito Santana in 1998.

I think you need to read what I wrote again, you cant compare how the WWE were presenting new guys back then to now

LineOfBeauty

riffmongous wrote: »

I think you need to read what I wrote again, you cant compare how the WWE were presenting new guys back then to now

I've written a million times on here about both the issues with the performance centre and how WWE present/debut their wrestlers.

The answer is not a guy over 40 years old whose most notable run was 16 years ago. The comparison stands.

riffmongous

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I've written a million times on here about both the issues with the performance centre and how WWE present/debut their wrestlers.

The answer is not a guy over 40 years old whose most notable run was 16 years ago. The comparison stands.

No..it doesn't. If you'd said 2010 or something maybe but 98 is just stupid

LineOfBeauty

riffmongous wrote: »

No..it doesn't. If you'd said 2010 or something maybe but 98 is just stupid

It's really not. Santana's career high in the WWF is 83/84 so him returning as a pushed commodity in 98/99 (keeping in mind the change of tone and age of the headliners at that time) would have been utterly ludicrous. In the same way, Carlito returning in 2021 as a pushes commodity given that his WWE career high is around 2004/2005 should be just as dumb an idea.

TimesArrow

Even to add the likes of Cedric, Lee, Ali, Riddle to the chamber match ( even though I’m not particularly high on any of them) would be FAR more interesting than Hardy, Miz and Orton

beakerjoe

Jeff Hardy is so beat up yet continues, and most likely will continue, his crazy spots at this show.

Hes gonna be crippled in retirement doing this ****.... and in all fairness its stale watching him nearly murder himself at each big event hes booked.

TimesArrow

beakerjoe wrote: »

Jeff Hardy is so beat up yet continues, and most likely will continue, his crazy spots at this show.

Hes gonna be crippled in retirement doing this ****.... and in all fairness its stale watching him nearly murder himself at each big event hes booked.

Tbh, I’ve never seen the appeal of the Hardy’s.. especially both of them as singles wrestlers.. and Matt Hardy gimmicks in recent years are absolute garbage

riffmongous

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

It's really not. Santana's career high in the WWF is 83/84 so him returning as a pushed commodity in 98/99 (keeping in mind the change of tone and age of the headliners at that time) would have been utterly ludicrous. In the same way, Carlito returning in 2021 as a pushes commodity given that his WWE career high is around 2004/2005 should be just as dumb an idea.

Again, youre just not getting it. Read it another time

LineOfBeauty

riffmongous wrote: »

Could use.. but won't unfortunately, so until WWE changes how they present their newer talent I'd much rather see Carlito out there than cookie cutter NXT guy. It's a serious problem at the moment

So here we are. You don't like how WWE present new talent. You find that the WWE PC produces cookie cutter wrestlers. You'd rather see Carlito over one of these until it improves. What's not to get here?

And still, the comparison stands.

JP Liz V1

PTH2009 wrote: »

Will the Fiend (now with a melted face mask) randomly appear in Randy Orton's EC pod ?

Randy's face healed up well

CastorTroy

Sure he just got what was basically a sunburn. Imagine if we wore masks like that every time we got sunburned.

beakerjoe

The problem to how WWE present, book or promote new talent isnt answered by bringing in an old hand, who was a middle of the road talent from the past whos best year was his debut year.

Yes they present new talent poorly and hamstring them from the off, but the answer isnt bring in a mildy succesful vet. Look at how Jeff Hardy is booked for that answer.

They have amazing talent criminally underutilised. The answerbis they need to totally reboot how the book talent.

Necro

TimesArrow wrote:

Tbh, I’ve never seen the appeal of the Hardy’s.. especially both of them as singles wrestlers.. and Matt Hardy gimmicks in recent years are absolute garbage

There was a period where Jeff could have been huge, they even gave him the breakout moment winning the title and pinning HHH relatively clean

He was hugely over back then, but between his own demons and everything it just didn't pan out

Same thing happened in TNA (to a lesser degree) and 'that' match with Sting.

After that he was never going to be relied on again by any company in a massive way.

JP Liz V1

I wish they'd do something with Morrison, take the briefcase from Miz or his chamber spot etc.,

beakerjoe

Necro wrote: »

There was a period where Jeff could have been huge, they even gave him the breakout moment winning the title and pinning HHH relatively clean

He was hugely over back then, but between his own demons and everything it just didn't pan out

Same thing happened in TNA (to a lesser degree) and 'that' match with Sting.

After that he was never going to be relied on again by any company in a massive way.

Jeff Hardy had it. He was booked to his strengths. From 99, he and Matt were so over. What they and others were doing was so fresh and was a far cry from the mid 90's tag scene of Smoking Gunns vs The Body Donnas and the Godwins.

Jeff was a star, he had the look, never spoke much (which helped with his overall aura) and he could go in the ring. I believe he had a ceiling due to his poor mic skills and his personality once he began cutting promos was very wooden. WWE did well with him to a point and his demons ultimately meant he couldnt be trusted. WWE has to take a share of the blame with that, his drug dependency/ habit was a result of how much pain he was in from the crazy stunts they encouraged.

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

I wish they'd do something with Morrison, take the briefcase from Miz or his chamber spot etc.,

Morrison is obviously the more talented in ring, but to be fair his character is so well suited in his current role. Miz and he bounce so well off eachother. Id like to see their roles altered to Johnny being the star and Miz being his hype man.

Necro

beakerjoe wrote: »

Jeff Hardy had it. He was booked to his strengths. From 99, he and Matt were so over. What they and others were doing was so fresh and was a far cry from the mid 90's tag scene of Smoking Gunns vs The Body Donnas and the Godwins.

Jeff was a star, he had the look, never spoke much (which helped with his overall aura) and he could go in the ring. I believe he had a ceiling due to his poor mic skills and his personality once he began cutting promos was very wooden. WWE did well with him to a point and his demons ultimately meant he couldnt be trusted. WWE has to take a share of the blame with that, his drug dependency/ habit was a result of how much pain he was in from the crazy stunts they encouraged.

Not sure why they didn't bring back his singles theme music for his current run, especially when coming back from injury that time, I always preferred it to be honest

But yeah - he definitely had it.

JP Liz V1

Jeff was over the levels of Daniel Bryan, Becky, SCSA and The Rock at one time

hynesie08

Necro wrote: »

Not sure why they didn't bring back his singles theme music for his current run, especially when coming back from injury that time, I always preferred it to be honest

But yeah - he definitely had it.

He said it'd come back when crowds did, could see him busting it out for mania.

JP Liz V1

https://twitter.com/WWE/status/1361435125347680256

PTH2009

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/WWE/status/1361435125347680256

Not the worst expect some shenanigans

Actually could the miz cash in on whoever wins the EC match if/when he is eliminated ?

TimesArrow

Really have had enough of the Miz. He’s not a bad wrestler but hes never had a truly great match and has been stale for years. Even though he can talk ( main reason he’s on the show), the promos are virtually always the same.

PTH2009

Braun or John Morrison to replace the Miz in the MITB ?

TimesArrow

They specifically said this chamber match was for former wwe champs last week?!

TimesArrow

Sweet Jesus they actually went there with the Flair/ Evans angle.. painful to watch.. can ric flair just retire for good, for real forever please

hynesie08

So, does the winner of this match have to go into the gauntlet?

PTH2009

TimesArrow wrote: »

Sweet Jesus they actually went there with the Flair/ Evans angle.. painful to watch.. can ric flair just retire for good, for real forever please

They prob think Ric is bringing ratings, jesus christ WTF does this bring to the table. Suppose if Mick Jagger can father children at his age Ric can

J. Marston

Ric's reaction to that made me laugh out loud.

PTH2009

Kofi replacing the miz in the EC it is

Christ why does Orton always have these backstage speechs