Would a Leaf work for my commute?

fricatus

I recently test drove a 141 Nissan Leaf and really liked it. As long as I could live with the range, it would be ideal for me, so I'm trying to understand whether it could put up with my commute (from near University Hospital Waterford to Purcellsinch in Kilkenny)

I reckon my commute to be 110 km (55 there, the same back), and the car I drove was charged up and showing 122 km on the range indicator.

I'm thinking that might be too tight, especially since a good deal of that is on the motorway, and I need to factor in wind, and heating in winter, etc. Also, even if it's doable, I don't know whether that would be charged to 100% and then nearly empty when I get home, or within a more sensible band of 80% down to 20% left. I know that deep usage followed by high charging is not ideal for the battery, and if I understand correctly, its life would be longer if I always stayed within say 40-80%.

There are places I could do a fast charge (Barlo Nissan and Carrol's in Knocktoper), but to be honest, I'd rather dispense with all that faffing around. I've no work charging, so I'd just want to charge it up at home and then go to work and back, and not be stopping on the way (this doesn't bother me on the occasional longer trip).

Would it work for me, or would I just be better off waiting for a newer model?

A 30 Kwh would do it easily enough ,it would be tight enough in the 24 Kwh but do-a-ble

Just 5 mins on a fast charger can make a big difference. I have a 135 km commute and used to charge at Naas for 10 mins and that got me home with about 18-30% depending on how hard I drove, weather etc.

I drove it on one charge before and can just about make it in cooler weather. But that's restricting my speed a lot more than I like. And actually just remembering I took a back road home through Punchestown and into Kilcullen and down the Old N9, no big deal great road to drive but it was at 60-80 and some 100 Kph stints once I know I was home free lol. This knocked a few kms off the trip.

Anyway 110 kms will be tight enough but I bet you'll find 5-10 mins may be all you need but if your budget can stretch to the 30 Kwh it would guarantee it comfortably, at normal speeds. I'd get the 6.6 Kw charger in the leaf also, it's handy to have and you should find some 2nd hand ones with the 6.6 Kw charger, maybe head to the U,K, good bargains there you might even pick up a 30 Kwh with 6.6 Kw charger at a good price.

The 6.6 Kw charger can mean a lot less trips to fast chargers if you can plug in in town at a standard AC point.

peposhi

fricatus wrote: »

I recently test drove a 141 Nissan Leaf and really liked it. As long as I could live with the range, it would be ideal for me, so I'm trying to understand whether it could put up with my commute (from near University Hospital Waterford to Purcellsinch in Kilkenny)

I reckon my commute to be 110 km (55 there, the same back), and the car I drove was charged up and showing 122 km on the range indicator.

I'm thinking that might be too tight, especially since a good deal of that is on the motorway, and I need to factor in wind, and heating in winter, etc. Also, even if it's doable, I don't know whether that would be charged to 100% and then nearly empty when I get home, or within a more sensible band of 80% down to 20% left. I know that deep usage followed by high charging is not ideal for the battery, and if I understand correctly, its life would be longer if I always stayed within say 40-80%.

There are places I could do a fast charge (Barlo Nissan and Carrol's in Knocktoper), but to be honest, I'd rather dispense with all that faffing around. I've no work charging, so I'd just want to charge it up at home and then go to work and back, and not be stopping on the way (this doesn't bother me on the occasional longer trip).

Would it work for me, or would I just be better off waiting for a newer model?

I'll give you another example of the range of 24kw Leaf.

My wife had to travell 3 days in a row 120km round trip (on the doth) each day.
First day - took the ICE, was not feeling comfortable taking the Leaf.
Second day - took the Leaf with 100% charge. Very cold morning, used the air con, only halfway to destination realised ECO was not on, came back home this eve with VLBC. I think she could have done anothe 5-10km. Minded the speed on the way back biiig time.range anxiety kicked in, well... she is not really used to it.
Third day - took the Leaf, charged for 10min on the FCP in Kilbegan and happy days... Said will travel that distance in future with the Leaf, and she's got to do it 3 times a month over the next 8 months.

Bottom line - as Mad Lad said - doable with 24kw Leaf, 30kw Leaf - not a bother.

P.S. Forgot to mention that the terrain is very hilly, similar to Waterford - Kilkenny road...

BoatMad

fricatus wrote: »

I recently test drove a 141 Nissan Leaf and really liked it. As long as I could live with the range, it would be ideal for me, so I'm trying to understand whether it could put up with my commute (from near University Hospital Waterford to Purcellsinch in Kilkenny)

I reckon my commute to be 110 kmph (55 there, the same back), and the car I drove was charged up and showing 122 km on the range indicator.

I'm thinking that might be too tight, especially since a good deal of that is on the motorway, and I need to factor in wind, and heating in winter, etc. Also, even if it's doable, I don't know whether that would be charged to 100% and then nearly empty when I get home, or within a more sensible band of 80% down to 20% left. I know that deep usage followed by high charging is not ideal for the battery, and if I understand correctly, its life would be longer if I always stayed within say 40-80%.

There are places I could do a fast charge (Barlo Nissan and Carrol's in Knocktoper), but to be honest, I'd rather dispense with all that faffing around. I've no work charging, so I'd just want to charge it up at home and then go to work and back, and not be stopping on the way (this doesn't bother me on the occasional longer trip).

Would it work for me, or would I just be better off waiting for a newer model?

we have virtually that exact same distance commute , 120 Km , 90% on motorways , we have a 2016 30kwh Leaf

at 110Kmph , the 30 Kwh Leaf will struggle to deliver that round trip , especially if you have hills, in cold weather , and rain/wind. It will do that in good conditions at 100Kmph , preferably at 95Kmph. ( its not a " doodle ") a combination of worse case conditions , it will struggle, leaving you arriving home on LBW

We have done the round trip ( without intervening charges ) , but at times it can be touch and go. Now we have a 13A external socket at work and we granny charge, which makes it a doddle.

I drove from Waterford , to nissan barlow , in a 24Kw, fully charged at slightly illegal motorway speeds, I consumed the whole battery charge doing so !!!

personally we are in 40 Kwh battery territory to do this commute at near motorway speeds in all climatic conditions

Note we tested the 24 Kwh version extensively on the same trip, its cannot achieve it at any reasonable level of speed .

MY best advice , get a 30 Kwh Leaf for a few days , and try it

OP there's no point making any decisions without testing the leaf for 2 days and this time of the year is a good time to do it.

Go to Barlo Nissan in kilkenny and see if you can get a test drive for 2 days. Paul is dead keen on selling the Leaf, sound chap. You'll get the Granny leaf to plug in at home via a fully unwound extension lead to prevent heat build up.

fricatus

Thanks all for the replies. I'm not thinking of changing right now, because Mrs Fricatus is next in line for a replacement car, and my diesel Accord is still chewing up the miles (yes, miles, not kms - approaching 200,000 now).

However the 30 kwh sounds like it might do the trick if the Honda gives up the ghost, and by the time I've enough of a budget, the 40 kwh might be on the market! When is it supposed to be due?

fricatus

fricatus wrote: »

Thanks all for the replies. I'm not thinking of changing right now, because Mrs Fricatus is next in line for a replacement car, and my diesel Accord is still chewing up the miles (yes, miles, not kms - approaching 200,000 now).

However the 30 kwh sounds like it might do the trick if the Honda gives up the ghost, and by the time I've enough of a budget, the 40 kwh might be on the market! When is it supposed to be due?

No idea yet, no official announcement , only rumour , though the 30 Kwh was rumour around this time last year also.

If I were you I'd test drive the 24 Kwh or the 30 Kwh if you can get one, better then to know for sure if you'd be happy with it or not.

unkel

BoatMad wrote: »

I drove from Waterford , to nissan barlow , in a 24Kw, fully charged at slightly illegal motorway speeds, I consumed the whole battery charge doing so !!!

Like 50km?

That's my worry and the main reason stopping me buying an electric car. I will refuse to drive at 90km/h or something ridiculously slow. That's a total waste of my time. I am used to driving safely on good quality motorways and do so typically quite a bit above the speed limits if there is no other traffic

The top speed of the Leaf is 144km/h, presumably it uses all its power (80kW) at that speed. That means a 24kWh full theoretical capacity (say 20kWh in practice), you run out of steam in 20/80 hours, or 15 minutes. In that time you will have covered 144/4 = 36km (never mind the official 135km range :rolleyes:)

This would mean if I were to drive to Malin head and back, I would have to stop about 16 times for a full recharge. Most ICE cars could do that without topping up or if you have a very thirsty machine, maybe topping up once

EV is fine if you do only city driving and fine if you do small distances on motorways and you do not mind driving at a snails pace...

I've never consumed the whole battery in the 24 Kwh leaf at 110-130 Kph even after 65 kms, probably 30% left.

The leaf top speed is 164 Kph clock speed.

If you want to drive at illegal speeds then wait until the gen II appears with up to 60 kwh of storage.

isnottheword

unkel wrote: »

That's my worry and the main reason stopping me buying an electric car. I will refuse to drive at 90km/h or something ridiculously slow. That's a total waste of my time. I am used to driving safely on good quality motorways and do so typically quite a bit above the speed limits if there is no other traffic

The top speed of the Leaf is 144km/h, presumably it uses all its power (80kW) at that speed. That means a 24kWh full theoretical capacity (say 20kWh in practice), you run out of steam in 20/80 hours, or 15 minutes. In that time you will have covered 144/4 = 36km (never mind the official 135km range :rolleyes:)

You know the answer - this is not the time for you to buy an EV. You'll have to hold off for a year or two until next generation hits.

I agree that largely, it's suited to city driving. However, I'm using it for a rural commute - not on motorways. Driving 65KM each way - I drive at speed limit - and no more than that.

I used to have a heavy foot - but not any more and I'm better off for it. You say that you'd waste time but you'd be disappointed to learn what little difference in time it makes - it's all state of mind.

Yes, there are serious limitations. However, as it stands right now, I'm saving a minimum of €160 on fuel per month (that's before consideration of the savage amount I was shelling out each year on ICE engine based servicing).

Since about the 15th January I've driven 50,200 kms in the Leaf.

I don't drive too easy, usually keep to the limits having 3 points I don't want to add to it. It suits me fine for now.

I would call the current range of electric cars limited, we have a diesel for the 2-3 times a year the leaf doesn't suit. I'd certainly not call them "seriously" limited but there are times I wished it had more range.

The Renault Zoe will have a 40 Kwh battery , available to order now, which is good for 220-280 kms. That's a pretty good improvement.

Leaf II with most likely optional 60 Kwh should get 320-380 Kms.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

The top speed of the Leaf is 144km/h, presumably it uses all its power (80kW) at that speed. That means a 24kWh full theoretical capacity (say 20kWh in practice), you run out of steam in 20/80 hours, or 15 minutes. In that time you will have covered 144/4 = 36km (never mind the official 135km range :rolleyes:)

Due to the speed restriction LEAF at top speed consumes 30..40 kW of motor power depending on winds etc. Even with that the maximum range would be quite low.

BoatMad

isnottheword wrote: »

You know the answer - this is not the time for you to buy an EV. You'll have to hold off for a year or two until next generation hits.

I agree that largely, it's suited to city driving. However, I'm using it for a rural commute - not on motorways. Driving 65KM each way - I drive at speed limit - and no more than that.

I used to have a heavy foot - but not any more and I'm better off for it. You say that you'd waste time but you'd be disappointed to learn what little difference in time it makes - it's all state of mind.

Yes, there are serious limitations. However, as it stands right now, I'm saving a minimum of €160 on fuel per month (that's before consideration of the savage amount I was shelling out each year on ICE engine based servicing).

Even though I was the one that posted the Kilkenny trip data ( I clocked 130-140kph by the way) . I would strongly disagree with

"I agree that largely, it's suited to city driving."

Evs make no sense ( other then a wholly cardigan environmental one) for town cars, you die far better buying a much cheaper petrol runaround


EVs make great financial sense when you are using them daily too the extent of their range . Then you maximise the savings on their "fuel"

Mine does a daily round trip of 120 km, no problem, most on motorway/dual carriageways and at 100-110 Kmph. At weeks ends like yesterday it does a 280 KM trip on Saturday and back again on Sunday with one recharge during which I have a coffee , The total additional travel time over an ICE ( which I drive at 100 mph for optimum economy ) is about 20-25 minutes extra.


I do that in a car that is nicer to driver, considerably quieter then any ICE., with all mod cons running , heated seats all round Air, good stereo , heated steering wheel etc

bipedalhumanoid

A few things to consider:

1: Headwind
I've done the trip from Dublin to Waterford a number of times and have noticed a considerable drain on the battery between Carlow and Knocktopher. People tell me that's due to a headwind. Very consistent for a headwind, but whatever the cause, to get from Carlow to Waterford often requires me to stop in Knocktopher even though on paper it would seem to not be necessary.

2: Battery degradation over time
With the mileage you will be racking up, I would expect you to lose your first bar after 2 years of driving. When you lose the first bar, your capacity has dropped by 15%. Subsequent bars are 6.25%. You really don't want to be at the pin of your collar for range when you first buy the car!

3: Charge Point Reliability
It sounds like you're planning to not have to charge enroute. That is a very wise move. Right now the fast charger network is very unreliable. They're dropping like flies and the ESB cars is very slow to get them back up and running again. They're basically broke and have not yet received permission to charge us for the service. And that's another thing. When they do start charging us for the service, based on the plan they released earlier this year, charging at a fast charger will cost you considerably more than diesel, especially in winter. They want to charge by the minute and the charge you get for your money will vary depending on weather conditions, the condition of and type of charger and the age/type of battery.

4: Weather
As others have pointed out, you lose range in winter. The air is denser and more costly to drive through energywise. The battery is also less efficient and takes longer to charge.

I wouldn't recommend buying and EV unless your test drive shows that you can get to work and back in the dead of winter with at least 35% left in the battery.

My 152 leaf is serving me well on my 80km daily commute. I covered over 30K kms in my first year and expect to lose my first bar sometime in my third year of ownership.

EVs make great financial sense when you are using them daily too the extent of their range

I agree with this 100%. They only make financial sense if your commute is big enough for you to make a considerable saving on fuel. Personally, I am saving €300 per month on fuel alone. Makes perfect sense for me.

BoatMad

My 152 leaf is serving me well on my 80km daily commute. I covered over 30K kms in my first year and expect to lose my first bar sometime in my third year of ownership.

hopefully , people have lost bars from 70K km onwards

bipedalhumanoid

BoatMad wrote: »

hopefully , people have lost bars from 70K km onwards

That's in line with what I said. I will hit 70K km in my third year.

2011-July 2013 Leafs usually loose a capacity bar by 70,000 kms though it's not directly dependent on mileage, but age and not only those but to keep it simple we'll leave it at time and mileage for now.

141 leafs have not lost a capacity bar yet, and neither have a few U.K taxi's with 160,000 + kms. The current Gen leafs from July 2013 + have a vastly improved battery.

My January 2015 with 50,280 Kms has lost about 3% give, leaf spy data shows more and less depending on usage.

I ran leaf spy on a 141 with 60,000 kms and it showed 99% battery health. I drive hard and charge more as a result so I wouldn't be surprised if I lost a % or 2 more.

But if affordable a 141 would be extremely well worth getting.

n97 mini

[Deleted User] wrote: »

My January 2015 with 50,280 Kms has lost about 3% give.

Same here. Our 152 with 56k kms still shows 97%

bipedalhumanoid

Thanks for the info Mad_Lad, that looks promising regarding the newer batteries.

I'm not entirely convinced you're right in your suggestion that battery degradation is not directly related to mileage. From what I'm reading they degrade over time, yes, but that degradation is accelerated with increased mileage. That's why Nissan cap their warranty on both time and mileage.

I can't find the source that set my expectation that I'll lose a bar in year 3, but I'll link you to it if I find it.

Anecdotally, I do know someone with a 2012 leaf who still has all of his bars. He has only covered 30k Kms in 4 years.

BoatMad

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

Thanks for the info Mad_Lad, that looks promising regarding the newer batteries.

I'm not entirely convinced you're right in your suggestion that battery degradation is not directly related to mileage. From what I'm reading they degrade over time, yes, but that degradation is accelerated with increased mileage. That's why Nissan cap their warranty on both time and mileage.

I can't find the source that set my expectation that I'll lose a bar in year 3, but I'll link you to it if I find it.

Anecdotally, I do know someone with a 2012 leaf who still has all of his bars. He has only covered 30k Kms in 4 years.

Lithiums have two major sources of decay in performance ( aside from deliberate damage )

A. through the simple passage of time,dendritic growth and parasitic actions cause buildups on the anode that reduce capacity even if the cell is unused

B. Charge discharge cycles

bipedalhumanoid

BoatMad wrote: »

Lithiums have two major sources of decay in performance ( aside from deliberate damage )

A. through the simple passage of time,dendritic growth and parasitic actions cause buildups on the anode that reduce capacity even if the cell is unused

B. Charge discharge cycles

And B is obviously correlated with mileage.

BoatMad

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

And B is obviously correlated with mileage.

indeed, so a combination of time and usage , but tests have shown that time is a very big factor, which suggests that babying the car is not very useful

bipedalhumanoid

BoatMad wrote: »

indeed, so a combination of time and usage , but tests have shown that time is a very big factor, which suggests that babying the car is not very useful

Great. I'm all too happy to drive the **** out of my car.

BoatMad

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

Great. I'm all too happy to drive the **** out of my car.

yeah that was the summary of early leaf usage in the states, those that babied their batteries fell outside the warranty period , and had to fund the replacement themselves , those that raced and rallied had Nissan pick up the bill !!!

bipedalhumanoid

BoatMad wrote: »

yeah that was the summary of early leaf usage in the states, those that babied their batteries fell outside the warranty period , and had to fund the replacement themselves , those that raced and rallied had Nissan pick up the bill !!!

Did Nissan not have the 100k Km limit on their warranty back then?

Yes, when I said "mileage" I mean cycling, i.e , charging , discharging.

There are some original leafs that hit 100,000 kms without loosing a capacity bar, I think these are mainly ones that haven't been fast charged much, the original leaf was a lot more sensitive to fast charging and heat. It doesn't seem to effect the current Gen 24 kwh much. The 30 Kwh leaf battery heats up a lot more but there is no useful data yet on how it effects battery life, current indications from the U.S suggest hot climates have a negative effect , same as the current 24 kwh gen there also, this is no surprise. Batteries don't like heat and nissan have no form of cooling. Usually not a problem for our climate unless you go on a fast charge binge and drive it hard all day for the current 24 kwh gen. Because the 30 Kwh heats up a lot more fast charging it might just have a negative effect but we don't know yet.

By the way, the harder you drive will also matter, the harder you drive the more charge you use the more frequently you have to charge meaning more cycling.

When I don't use the car I leave it sit at around 30-50% and charge it when I need it, when I need pottering around mileage I charge to 70%. About 30% is the ideal minimum for storage, it doesn't like to sit at too low a charge either.

The higher the charge the battery sits at the more stresses it puts on the battery, this , over time makes a difference as is well known, it's not going to matter much if you charge to 100% and intend driving it a few hrs later but when I'm off shift I don't drive mush usually and so I charge as much as I need only.

Currently on the current gen batteries cycling is the highest factor in capacity loss and when batteries reach 50 Kwh + there will be far less cycling on the battery and they in theory should last the life of the car.

Even the Renault Zoe 40 Kwh and the rumoured Leaf 40 Kwh will be cycled a lot less than a 24 Kwh battery.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, when I said "mileage" I mean cycling, i.e , charging , discharging.

There are some original leafs that hit 100,000 kms without loosing a capacity bar, I think these are mainly ones that haven't been fast charged much, the original leaf was a lot more sensitive to fast charging and heat. It doesn't seem to effect the current Gen 24 kwh much. The 30 Kwh leaf battery heats up a lot more but there is no useful data yet on how it effects battery life, current indications from the U.S suggest hot climates have a negative effect , same as the current 24 kwh gen there also, this is no surprise. Batteries don't like heat and nissan have no form of cooling. Usually not a problem for our climate unless you go on a fast charge binge and drive it hard all day for the current 24 kwh gen. Because the 30 Kwh heats up a lot more fast charging it might just have a negative effect but we don't know yet.

By the way, the harder you drive will also matter, the harder you drive the more charge you use the more frequently you have to charge meaning more cycling.

When I don't use the car I leave it sit at around 30-50% and charge it when I need it, when I need pottering around mileage I charge to 70%. About 30% is the ideal minimum for storage, it doesn't like to sit at too low a charge either.

The higher the charge the battery sits at the more stresses it puts on the battery, this , over time makes a difference as is well known, it's not going to matter much if you charge to 100% and intend driving it a few hrs later but when I'm off shift I don't drive mush usually and so I charge as much as I need only.

Currently on the current gen batteries cycling is the highest factor in capacity loss and when batteries reach 50 Kwh + there will be far less cycling on the battery and they in theory should last the life of the car.

Even the Renault Zoe 40 Kwh and the rumoured Leaf 40 Kwh will be cycled a lot less than a 24 Kwh battery.

rather then rehash an old argument , I will again contend , that while you correctly point out the " historical " issue around lithium, most of what you say , is data collected from small cell usage

we simply dont have any proper statistical data and analysis to reach any safe conclusions about usage versus life line in large EV style battery packs, its all too new. even the data from early leafs is conflicting