Journalism and cycling

tomasrojo

Someone in the thread says that 73% of fatalities were on rural roads. I don't know if that's true. I just have a vague recollection of most of them being on 80km/h roads. Might be faulty memory, obviously

EDIT: Yeah, the @dublincycling account says 11 of the 15 were on rural roads, 2 of that 11 at night. I'm not sure how many rural roads are 80km/h roads.

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

EDIT: Yeah, the @dublincycling account says 11 of the 15 were on rural roads, 2 of that 11 at night. I'm not sure how many rural roads are 80km/h roads.

Nearly all of them, if you exclude national roads, villages and small nucleated housing areas.

Rechuchote

Most rural roads, others city and suburban junctions?

meeeeh

tomasrojo wrote: »

Someone in the thread says that 73% of fatalities were on rural roads. I don't know if that's true. I just have a vague recollection of most of them being on 80km/h roads. Might be faulty memory, obviously

EDIT: Yeah, the @dublincycling account says 11 of the 15 were on rural roads, 2 of that 11 at night. I'm not sure how many rural roads are 80km/h roads.

Too many. I've driven on a local road that had pot hole after a pot hole and an elastic string accross the road to hold the farm gate open and it was classified as 80 kph road. One of us had to get out of a car and lift the elastic to drive on. That being said it would be interesting to know how many accidents happened at the junctions.

Rechuchote

meeeeh wrote: »

an elastic string accross the road to hold the farm gate open

:eek:

Macy0161

CramCycle wrote: »

Lights are always the preferred option, it lights the way, makes you visible around corners, attributes motion to the user which can be a psychological trigger for recognition for someone not paying enough attention, the benefits are obvious. The fact that most phones have torches mean that excuses for not having one are pretty thin as well. I seen a guy on his bike awhile ago using his iphone torch shining from his shirt pocket, which done the job.

Yes, I'm trying to drum into my children the importance of torches and lights, in the face of (frankly) the hiviz indoctrination they get in school. On top of phones, LED torches are so small.

Less branding opportunity for the RSA on torches and lights though - Be Safe, Be Seen (To be doing something)...

fwiw when I'm walking to and from the pub I use an old style Browne Belt and Torch. The two combined pack down smaller than a builders vest.

meeeeh

Rechuchote wrote: »

:eek:

In fairness it was in the middle of nowhere and shouldn't even be classified as a road, never mind 80 kmph road. But it just shows you how little sense is put into road classification.

Fian

Most rural roads are 100km/h not 80km/h.

In fact very little of them are 80km/h in my experience - it is 100 km/h in teh countryside dropping down in towns and villages.

of course limits are not targets and people generally drive at a speed appropriate to the road not 100km/h.

Hurrache

Interesting and relevant article
http://www.safecyclingireland.org/media-matters-%F0%9F%A7%90/

xckjoo

magicbastarder wrote: »

you don't drive 'expecting' that situation, you drive such as you can deal with that situation.
if your headlights are insufficient to pick out a human sized lump in the road ahead, less than braking distance based on the speed you are doing, you are either driving too fast for the conditions, or your lights are illegally defective.

Sorry. Forgot this was the forum of the omniscient driver who never goes above 50kmph so they can stop on a dime.

The poster was clearly trying to give an extreme situation where you don't see the person/object until you're upon it. Arguing the semantics of his specific argument doesn't help anyone. It can happens no matter what speed you're at or how much attention you pay, so be careful out there everyone.

magicbastarder

sorry, run this by me again - are you saying that if there is something human sized, stationary, in the road ahead of you, you can find an excuse for the motorist driving into it?

CramCycle

Fian wrote: »

Most rural roads are 100km/h not 80km/h.

Irelands speed limits are based on road designations. National roads are 100kmph (N**) but all Local and regional (L**** and R***) roads are 80kmph unless with special exemption.

In fact very little of them are 80km/h in my experience - it is 100 km/h in teh countryside dropping down in towns and villages.

It really depends on the road but you will find you are incorrect, the majority of roads in the countryside are not 100kmph, the majority are 80kmph or less

of course limits are not targets and people generally drive at a speed appropriate to the road not 100km/h.

Alas if this were true then there would not be so many road deaths.

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

sorry, run this by me again - are you saying that if there is something human sized, stationary, in the road ahead of you, you can find an excuse for the motorist driving into it?

Yes it happens. That's also why people don't get sentenced for it. You might disagree with law, court, judge, Guards but for now you opinion doesn't count as superior.

CramCycle

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes it happens. That's also why people don't get sentenced for it. You might disagree with law, court, judge, Guards but for now you opinion doesn't count as superior.

Disagree with the Judge or the state but not the law or the Gardai. They get charged with it, and the law itself is reasonably clear. The judge can alleviate the sentence to nothing based on what he believes are acceptable but extenuating circumstances. The state may not prosecute based on the fact that they believe a conviction will not be reached or is not in the best interest of the people. Gardai issue or arrest and charge.

The fact that people get menial or non existent sentences does not absolve them of guilt. You are referring to a Judicial system where some of the clangers that come out of certain Judges mouths can only be considered criminal in and of itself.

Macy0161

Fian wrote: »

Most rural roads are 100km/h not 80km/h.

In fact very little of them are 80km/h in my experience - it is 100 km/h in teh countryside dropping down in towns and villages.

Since 2007, the standard speed limits for roads not National Primary or Secondary (or Motorway) is 80km/hr. Not that you'd know it...

Fian wrote: »

of course limits are not targets and people generally drive at a speed appropriate to the road not 100km/h.

Really not sure if this is sarcasm, trolling or just very naive.

meeeeh

CramCycle wrote: »

Disagree with the Judge or the state but not the law or the Gardai. They get charged with it, and the law itself is reasonably clear. The judge can alleviate the sentence to nothing based on what he believes are acceptable but extenuating circumstances. The state may not prosecute based on the fact that they believe a conviction will not be reached or is not in the best interest of the people. Gardai issue or arrest and charge.

The fact that people get menial or non existent sentences does not absolve them of guilt. You are referring to a Judicial system where some of the clangers that come out of certain Judges mouths can only be considered criminal in and of itself.

So only sentences you agree are justified and when there is no prosecution or sentence people are still guilty. I think I get it now.

magicbastarder

are you saying we *shouldn't* disagree with sentences that have been handed down? that we're not qualified to disagree?

xckjoo

magicbastarder wrote: »

sorry, run this by me again - are you saying that if there is something human sized, stationary, in the road ahead of you, you can find an excuse for the motorist driving into it?

That aimed at me?
As I said, the poster was obviously trying to give an example of a case where you wouldn't see the object until you're upon it. Instead of getting caught up on the semantics of his phrasing it would be a bit more productive to address what he was actually trying to discuss which was if the driver would be held at fault.

magicbastarder

xckjoo wrote: »

No because you're supposed to drive with "due care" or whatever the wording is. There's no condition where you would reasonably expect to come across someone lying in the middle of the road in the dark so you wouldn't expect people to drive with that expectation.

just to remind you, i'm also addressing what *you* were saying.

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

are you saying we *shouldn't* disagree with sentences that have been handed down? that we're not qualified to disagree?

You can disagree with anything but it's an opinion and completely irrelevant. As what you are qualified for I have no idea.

CramCycle

meeeeh wrote: »

So only sentences you agree are justified and when there is no prosecution or sentence people are still guilty. I think I get it now.

Whether I think a sentence is justified or not is irrelevant, and you are willfully misinterpreting what I am saying.

They are still guilty if the judge finds them guilty, the judge will often suspend a sentence in the scenario I described. So they have been found guilty but in practical day to day terms, nothing else happens to them. I think you are purposefully just misreading what I am saying. Just because someone does not get a sentence, or it is suspended, it does not mean they were not guilty. Judge John Neilan is a good judge to look up, he has actually come out with some brilliantly offensive and illegal ones.

I think the most famous was suggesting it was OK for shopping centres to ban "coloured people" due to an increase in shop lifting in the area.

meeeeh

CramCycle wrote: »

Whether I think a sentence is justified or not is irrelevant, and you are willfully misinterpreting what I am saying.

They are still guilty if the judge finds them guilty, the judge will often suspend a sentence in the scenario I described. So they have been found guilty but in practical day to day terms, nothing else happens to them. I think you are purposefully just misreading what I am saying. Just because someone does not get a sentence, or it is suspended, it does not mean they were not guilty. Judge John Neilan is a good judge to look up, he has actually come out with some brilliantly offensive and illegal ones.

I think the most famous was suggesting it was OK for shopping centres to ban "coloured people" due to an increase in shop lifting in the area.

I actually misread your post, I thought that you claimed that even if there is no prosecution or someone is found not guilty that they are still guilty. Sorry about that. My point stands though extreme cases tend not to be even prosecuted. I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road. Two managed to avoid him someone even called Gardai and while they were on the way another unfortunate car killed him. You can't really blame the driver for that. As by the by I don't know how statistically significant it is but there is a tendency in Ireland not to classify suicide as a suicide if there is another option. Car crashing into the wall, someone driving of the pier and similar are often not accidents.

magicbastarder

meeeeh wrote: »

I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road.

it'd be a particularly odious move from the DPP to push ahead with an attempted prosecution here.
a friend of mine was driving a car when he struck and killed a pedestrian, who fell out into the road. the gardai, and the family of the victim, assigned no blame whatsoever.

xckjoo

magicbastarder wrote: »

just to remind you, i'm also addressing what *you* were saying.

Ya I know. I'm just not sure if you're deliberately misunderstanding my point or not; that sometimes we can't expect the unexpected. In the situation described by the poster (night, winding road, person lying down), I seriously doubt they'd even be prosecuted.

magicbastarder wrote: »

it'd be a particularly odious move from the DPP to push ahead with an attempted prosecution here.
a friend of mine was driving a car when he struck and killed a pedestrian, who fell out into the road. the gardai, and the family of the victim, assigned no blame whatsoever.

That's rough. Hope you're friends doing okay. Not sure I'd be able to get drive again after that. You'd be watching everyone near the road on the off chance they end up in front of you.

monument

cdaly_ wrote: »

This speed limit sign says "drive at a speed appropriate to the conditions". If they've killed you, they weren't. Simple as...

Actually...



The default rural speed limit needs to come down to 60km/h. Only regional and higher standard local roads should be 80km/h and really segregated cycle paths should be provided at that speed.

AndrewJRenko

meeeeh wrote: »

I actually misread your post, I thought that you claimed that even if there is no prosecution or someone is found not guilty that they are still guilty. Sorry about that. My point stands though extreme cases tend not to be even prosecuted. I know of an example where someone was attempting suicide by running in front of the cars dressed in dark clothing on a 100 kph road. Two managed to avoid him someone even called Gardai and while they were on the way another unfortunate car killed him. You can't really blame the driver for that. As by the by I don't know how statistically significant it is but there is a tendency in Ireland not to classify suicide as a suicide if there is another option.

Has there been any independent reporting of such suicide attempts by pedestrians? Any coroners reports or similar?

Duckjob

monument wrote: »

Actually...



The default rural speed limit needs to come down to 60km/h. Only regional and higher standard local roads should be 80km/h and really segregated cycle paths should be provided at that speed.

Doesn't matter a fiddlers fart what the speed limit when there's no enforcement. People are driving on rural roads like they're in Mad Max.

Agree with you on the segregated cycle paths though. The crazier things get on the roads the more I find I don't mind taking little detours to get away from the loonies for a bit more of my trip. I'd rather arrive 5 minutes later to where I'm going than not arrive at all.

meeeeh

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Has there been any independent reporting of such suicide attempts by pedestrians? Any coroners reports or similar?

I don't know about coroners report but the call to Gardai was reported in media because they wanted to talk to the person who made it. My nationality is relatively rare in Ireland so I'm not posting links with local specifics and losing my anonymity, I 'm not going to cry if you don't believe me.

rubadub

Miriam O'C on RTE1 right now making me cringe, asking how long gardai should spend investigating a crime such as robbing a bike. The TD on was going more on about burglary, but it is like she is trying to belitte burglary as a crime not worth investigating that much. Keeps downplaying burglary by bringing up robbed bikes.

Have said several times that gardai appear to treat bicycle theft or any bicycle related crime like it is some "schoolyard crime", and not to be taken seriously -just as she is doing.

listening continually now, she keeps bringing up bikes!! as though she is going to make these "idiots" see the light and go "jaysus miriam, when you put it like that, you made me look an idiot thinking gardai should waste time looking into the theft of a simple auld bike, sure that's to be expected".

AndrewJRenko

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know about coroners report but the call to Gardai was reported in media because they wanted to talk to the person who made it. My nationality is relatively rare in Ireland so I'm not posting links with local specifics and losing my anonymity, I 'm not going to cry if you don't believe me.

It's not a matter of whether I believe you or not. It's a matter of whether I believe that death of pedestrians by suicide is a real issue in Ireland.


We hear fairly regularly about death by suicide on train tracks, and even occasionally off motorway bridges. Personally, I can't recall ever hearing details of a a single case of death of pedestrians by suicide.


Has anyone got any reputable, definitive reports of such cases in Ireland in living memory?