Journalism and cycling

Macy0161

meeeeh wrote: »

But all those of you who know it is there are driving according to the speed limits through the blind corner. I'm not going to argue about where every speed van is but I know they were put on more dangerous locations. And no I'm not trolling this time, the point of fines it is not to collect more money for the budget but to improve behaviour on the roads. I don't know your expertise so you might be better equipped to position speeding vans than whoever was analysing data for gards but maybe you can email them with your suggestions.

I know the PR, but when I say blind, I mean to the location of the camera van. It's a bend on the road - the position of the van makes it not visible. Even in that location, it goes something like this, come around the bend - van there, stay slow. Van not there accelerate down into the junction/ zebra crossing/ shops.

If you're not trolling, you come across as apologist for the appauling enforcement of our roads. The tech is there for average speed cameras, not just restricted to short or defined stretches of road. In my own example, you're only talking 5 entry/ exit points, but you could narrow that down to one main road. The tech doesn't fall over if a car doesn't come through the second camera to do the calculation.

We could use ANPR for tax/ insurance/ nct/ licence and free up those guards wasted at checkpoints for other activities. We could have Red Light Cameras rotating every junction (so they're potentially at every junction, they don't need to be every junction 24/7). So much we could do, but apparently everything is grand because it's better than it was when we had crap cars and crap roads!

Rechuchote

Why in God's name are we using camera vans at this stage of the world? We could have automated cameras hidden in trees that can issue fines and send them out to speeders.

magicbastarder

because the political will, will point to our historically low death rate on the roads.
personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

Macy0161

magicbastarder wrote: »

because the political will, will point to our historically low death rate on the roads.

It's politically toxic to enforce motorists. Especially on things like speeding which are so accepted. Camera's can catch more in a day than guard in week, and at a much lower cost.

plodder

When I lived in Germany 20 years ago they used to announce on the radio every morning the general areas where speed checks would be. The idea was a) to reach far more people than those just passing the speed check and b) to encourage compliance rather than "punishment". As far as I know there is some evidential basis for it. Though the problem here is once you announce a general area, you are probably revealing the exact location as well, as they don't seem to change much. On average speed cameras, I use the port tunnel regularly and they are very effective. It's only a matter of time before they are put on the M50 and maybe other busy motorways. They use ANPR cameras on some traffic lights in the UK (incl. Belfast) and they work very well too for catching red light jumpers.

meeeeh

Macy0161 wrote: »

I know the PR, but when I say blind, I mean to the location of the camera van. It's a bend on the road - the position of the van makes it not visible. Even in that location, it goes something like this, come around the bend - van there, stay slow. Van not there accelerate down into the junction/ zebra crossing/ shops.

If you're not trolling, you come across as apologist for the appauling enforcement of our roads. The tech is there for average speed cameras, not just restricted to short or defined stretches of road. In my own example, you're only talking 5 entry/ exit points, but you could narrow that down to one main road. The tech doesn't fall over if a car doesn't come through the second camera to do the calculation.

We could use ANPR for tax/ insurance/ nct/ licence and free up those guards wasted at checkpoints for other activities. We could have Red Light Cameras rotating every junction (so they're potentially at every junction, they don't need to be every junction 24/7). So much we could do, but apparently everything is grand because it's better than it was when we had crap cars and crap roads!

That's just more nonsense. I'm not apologist for anything if I point out you lack basic understanding what the role of speed camera vans is. I'm not against cameras on the junctions or someone else checking tax/nct/insurance. Of course you could just make nct annual and you would have to pay insurance and tax for the year at the same time. But that's nothing to do with complaining everyone knows where speed camera van is parked.

I really don't think average speed camera will work. You can have people speeding and yet because they slow down every time someone in front of them turns left or right at one of the exits their average speed will be ok. Average speed cameras are great in the tunnels and on certain motorways.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

because the political will, will point to our historically low death rate on the roads.
personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

I'd like to see both, gardai should not be out pointing speed guns at people.

plodder wrote: »

When I lived in Germany 20 years ago they used to announce on the radio every morning the general areas where speed checks would be. The idea was a) to reach far more people than those just passing the speed check and b) to encourage compliance rather than "punishment". As far as I know there is some evidential basis for it. Though the problem here is once you announce a general area, you are probably revealing the exact location as well, as they don't seem to change much. On average speed cameras, I use the port tunnel regularly and they are very effective. It's only a matter of time before they are put on the M50 and maybe other busy motorways. They use ANPR cameras on some traffic lights in the UK (incl. Belfast) and they work very well too for catching red light jumpers.

meeeeh wrote: »

I really don't think average speed camera will work. You can have people speeding and yet because they slow down every time someone in front of them turns left or right at one of the exits their average speed will be ok. Average speed cameras are great in the tunnels and on certain motorways.

Funnily enough they work less well on motorways unless there are huge numbers of them. You would see it in France, people well over the speed limit and they stop and have coffee or tea at a service station just before the cameras to bring their average down. You have a large number of them across national and regional roads, maybe have ANPR linked to NCT and tax as well, and you will see, not everyone, but a large number of people staying within the limits because it is simply easier than trying to figure out if your OK or not. People are lazy, it is a fact, alot like opt out clauses. It won't fix everyone and there are those who will take great joy in figuring out how to work their morning coffee or sandwich stop into the drive but for the most part, you will see a shift in behaviour, although forced which will continue to the next generation.

Macy0161

meeeeh wrote: »

That's just more nonsense. I'm not apologist for anything if I point out you lack basic understanding what the role of speed camera vans is.

I know what they should be about. In this state, the same as every other thing, it's about being seen to be doing something. The camera in our village, could be effective, if they moved it around, varied the day, varied the direction it faced. They don't. I've been at the meetings that the gardai have quoted the number of checks it does. That doesn't make it effective, bar a very small stretch on specific days.

Spend time in the motors forum and tell me that enforcement on vehicles is effective in this state.

meeeeh

CramCycle wrote: »

Funnily enough they work less well on motorways unless there are huge numbers of them. You would see it in France, people well over the speed limit and they stop and have coffee or tea at a service station just before the cameras to bring their average down. You have a large number of them across national and regional roads, maybe have ANPR linked to NCT and tax as well, and you will see, not everyone, but a large number of people staying within the limits because it is simply easier than trying to figure out if your OK or not.

The ting is 80kph or 100kph is very high speed limit. Where I live I couldn't speed especially on average even if I wanted to. There are stretches of the road where I could possibly drive more than 80kph if I felt particularly suicidal but you have to slow down completely when you are turning off. On average you'd be still under the speed limit. There is another factor, speed cameras on locations with less traffic can be a vandalised.

I don't know what the research says but average speed cameras are around for decades in Europe and they don't seem to be that popular outside tunnels while other types of speed cameras are more and more common and their numbers are significantly increasing.

meeeeh

Macy0161 wrote: »

Spend time in the motors forum and tell me that enforcement on vehicles is effective in this state.

I don't need to spend time on motor forums to know how effective the enforcement in Ireland is. I was stopped or saw police more often driving on my holidays since moving to Ireland than actually in Ireland. Earlier this year my mum was fined for not indicating correctly on newly built roundabout. As matter of fact I also know a cyclist who was breathalysed and fined for cycling drunk and going through the red light, that wouldn't happen in Ireland either. Road stats are still much better in Ireland than where I come from. But what actually changed things there in the recent years are draconian penalties that are collected by revenue. 20kmph over 50km speed limit will cost you 500 Euro (minimum net monthly income is 638) and it will be collected at source. If you don't pay revenue send the fine to the employer and they have to deduct certain percentage of wages until it's paid. But again that's completely separate from what the role of speed camera van is.

ford2600

Macy0161 wrote: »

I really don't see the behaviour changed to be honest.

20 years ago 400 plus were dying on our roads. 40 cyclist a year was the number not that long ago. We are looking at 150 for this year if current numbers stay the same.

In spite of near full employment, much bigger average mileage per driver, road death trend is downwards with a few blips. The trend is undeniable. They are facts.


With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.


You can have your opinion that reduction is down to just infrastructure but that ignores a huge societal change. Your subjective view is probably coloured by being regularly exposed as a vulnerable road user to the worst type of road user; a commuter (unpaid work) stressed in traffic on way to/or home from a job they probably don't enjoy.

I have in fairly past cycled/driven in more challenging environments Portugal/Sicily/Ukraine/Tanzania. Ireland was closer 20-25 years ago to those jurisdictions today than where we are now.


Of course we need to get much better.

* as a 15 year old I was one of 9 in a mini. Driver wouldn't have been drunk but not sober either. An eye wouldn't have been blinked at the time. Around that time a local publican used to fit half of under 14 team in his Fiat Ritmo and rally drive to games.
**Two local brothers used bring from local country pub anyone who wanted a spin to local town to night club. Probably 6/7 pints before leaving pub at minimum and 9/10 people crammed into car on way in. One night he was stopped on edge of town at a checkpoint. Guard asked him did he realise he had 7 passengers; "Jesus Christ guard two of them must be after falling out since I left pub I had 9 leaving village". No charge, no breathalyser, no conviction. Sh1t like that happened all over the country.

plodder

You'd almost have to have cameras on every gantry on the M50. I reckon they will happen at the same time as variable speed limits, which could go as low as 60km/h at busy periods.

On other m-ways, maybe between every junction would do it, but the cost/benefit may be harder to justify. Also reminds me one time back in the day, in Germany I drove the transit motorway through East Germany from Munich to West Berlin. The East German police "pioneered" the use of average speed limits because they knew the exact time you crossed the border into the East and again when you left it to enter West Berlin. The idea kind of made sense because there was such a speed mismatch between the East German trabbies and Wartburgs as compared to the Westerners in their BMWs and Mercs. The trouble was of course, the Westies would just stop in a rest area near Berlin to kill time before crossing the border again.

ford2600

Rechuchote wrote: »

We could have automated cameras hidden in trees that can issue fines and send them out to speeders.

How do you propose we regularly calibrate all these cameras hidden in trees such that any evidence obtained in useable in a prosecution as per the relevant ISO/BS?

JMcL

Playing catch up here, been away for a few days

meeeeh wrote: »

So you don't want roads to be made safer and you get outraged when pedestrians are asked to adapt to the conditions on the roads to make themselves safer? OK.

Well, the problem is that if you make the road itself "safer" (remove the hedgerows, hard shoulder, etc. etc.) it encourages even faster driving as it's now considered a "great stretch of road". Other's have pointed out the ecological impact which is not insignificant - it's not just disrupting birds, it's the destruction of habitats for pollinators. What can be done is better traffic calming in villages. I'm not sure of the effectiveness of the narrow traffic calming bit at the entrance to villages frankly - it too often seems to be not much more than a target to aim for and creates a pinch point for cyclists. Maybe not speed bumps as they frequently seem to be in camoflage mode in this country, but chicanes (with bike/pedestrian access on the inside), even to the extent that cars can only go in one direction at a time. Latter is in place in the suburb of Paris my wive grew up in, and is seems to work well. I've seen them throughout France, in villages with little narrow streets that wouldn't be unsimilar to what was being discussed in Irish terms.

Open rural roads between villages are another matter - there's simply too many kilometers of them to do anything meaningful in terms of infrastructure

07Lapierre wrote: »

At least two were killed at junctions in Dublin City (HGV turning left)

The man killed at night was crossing the road near Christchurch Cathedral.

I'd have to look up the details regarding the others.

The guy killed in Waterford last December was on an 80kmph road - good quality and reasonable sightlines AFAIK at the point where it happened. It happened around 7am so it would be dark at that point and the road is unlit there.

ford2600 wrote: »

* as a 15 year old I was one of 9 in a mini. Driver wouldn't have been drunk but not sober either. An eye wouldn't have been blinked at the time. Around that time a local publican used to fit half of under 14 team in his Fiat Ritmo and rally drive to games..

I think our record was 8 in a Fiat 127, stopped by a guard who just shook his head and told us to get on an get them out quick as possible.

Not to mention the rush to be the one that gets to sit in the boot (usually with the dog). Contrast that to kids being secured in 5 point harnesses, booster seats with airbags etc and cars have become a lot safer. But again here, the feeling of personal safety contributes to a higher appetite for risk. Be it more powerful, safer cars (for the occupants), or in our own parish, somebody throwing themselves round hairpins on the wrong side of the road safe in the knowledge they have their foam hat on*

* I know I mentioned it, but please let's not go down that rabbit hole

Macy0161

ford2600 wrote: »

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

Yes, on reflection you're right on stuff like overfilling and child safety (I think I was one of 12 in a car, sat on a knee, with a younger cousin on me knee. Maybe it was a big contributor to road deaths, but I'm not particularly aware of where it was families (as opposed to a load of youngsters, which unfortunately has still resulted in deaths in recent years)

However, I'm really not seeing the seismic shift to speed (and to a lesser degree alcohol). I would contend speeding is so endemic and accepted is the reason it's politically toxic to properly enforce. How can "shooting fish in a barrell" or "money making/ flash for cash" be so acceptable commentary to so many, if attitudes to speed had really changed?

I'm similar age as yourself. When I was the age of my eldest, I was off out on the bike all day long, walked to friends houses on rural roads etc. I won't let my 11 year old out like that, and I doubt my parents would given how the roads are either. No helmets or hi viz either (EverReady lamps or a bottle dynamo).

tomasrojo

meeeeh wrote: »

Except if you want to make sure that people don't speed and that part of the road is therefore a lot safer... Isn't that the aim? Actual garda manned speed checks can be for catching serious offenders.

As for average speed cameras I think they mostly work on motorways. Irish motorways are relatively empty and safe so I assume it would be more or less pointless. Average speed cameras on roads with turn off every 30 meters won't work (I think).

The idea should be that you never know when you'll be caught, so you'll stop speeding everywhere. But people love speeding and don't really think it's harmful, so we have this weird compromise.

AndrewJRenko

ford2600 wrote: »

With regard to speed/alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage there has been a seismic shift in attitudes and behaviour. I could tell countless stories of behaviours than were acceptable when I was a teenager and in my 20's which people would be afraid to tell no such is the taboo around them but would have been seen as funny at the time. I'm 43. (I'll add 3 below for demonstration) You might still hear them told in Kilgarvan...

We need a seismic shift with regard to phone usage.

We've had shifts on alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage all right, but I don't think we've had much of a shift on speed. RSA Speed Surveys show 3 or 4 out of 5 drivers breaking speed limits.


And phone use is endemic now. We are 2nd worst in Europe and the European League table of mobile phone abuse.

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

The idea should be that you never know when you'll be caught, so you'll stop speeding everywhere. But people love speeding and don't really think it's harmful, so we have this weird compromise.

People don't even think their speeding. Talk to most people about it. On country roads, shure i was at or below the limit, therefore I could not have been driving too fast, it's been an accepted defence in court. On motorways, look at here, facebook, twitter, all you hear are complaints, people saying we should have our motorways like the autobahn (typically people who have never been on an autobahn and don't realise how they operate), no need for a speed limit on our motorways.
I now avoid lifts with certain family members and friends because their driving is dangerous and offensive. They may not have had accidents but I don't want to be in the car when they do.

CramCycle

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

We've had shifts on alcohol/car condition/seat belt usage all right, but I don't think we've had much of a shift on speed. RSA Speed Surveys show 3 or 4 out of 5 drivers breaking speed limits.


And phone use is endemic now. We are 2nd worst in Europe and the European League table of mobile phone abuse.

Interestingly I think we are the most honest about it to anonymous surveys, almost a silent F U to the establishment,

Rechuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

personally, i'd like to see the money spent on more gardai than on speed cameras. i know it shouldn't be either/or, but it is. especially with the week that's in it.

Not the same.

a) Automated cameras would be a lot cheaper, and would catch a lot more people and therefore cut the speeding rates far more because the word would spread.
b) Before looking for more gardaí we'd need a change in garda culture.
c) The gardaí that we actually need are to investigate things like people creeping around farmyards with lurchers and then creeping off with expensive farm machinery.
d) (not in answer to MB's post) It's not on the M50 that we need automated speed cameras - at least the first to be installed - so much as on urban and suburban junctions.
e) We badly need traffic policing - illegal parking, mobile phone use in cars, speeding to be separated from Garda work and done by a new and separate group who can issue tickets, like the old meter maids; we also need to automate a lot of it - for instance having front and back cameras on buses to automatically issue fines to people illegally driving in bus lanes.
f) We need a cultural change so that all of the above is seen as safety, and as important for individuals and society, rather than a shocking and mean interference in the rights of private citizens to post a funny picture on Instagram while swerving back and forth through traffic and red lights at speed.

randomname2005

Rechuchote wrote: »

Not the same.

a) Automated cameras would be a lot cheaper, and would catch a lot more people and therefore cut the speeding rates far more because the word would spread.
b) Before looking for more gardaí we'd need a change in garda culture.
c) The gardaí that we actually need are to investigate things like people creeping around farmyards with lurchers and then creeping off with expensive farm machinery.
d) (not in answer to MB's post) It's not on the M50 that we need automated speed cameras - at least the first to be installed - so much as on urban and suburban junctions.
e) We badly need traffic policing - illegal parking, mobile phone use in cars, speeding to be separated from Garda work and done by a new and separate group who can issue tickets, like the old meter maids; we also need to automate a lot of it - for instance having front and back cameras on buses to automatically issue fines to people illegally driving in bus lanes.
f) We need a cultural change so that all of the above is seen as safety, and as important for individuals and society, rather than a shocking and mean interference in the rights of private citizens to post a funny picture on Instagram while swerving back and forth through traffic and red lights at speed.

I agree with these ideas, but I don't think we, as a country are mature enough to accept these (echoing point f). There will be cries of nanny state, invasion of privacy etc. We have finally gotten to a point (in most of the country) where drink driving is seen as the dangerous activity that it is, but there is no widespread recognition that speeding can be as dangerous, that accelerating when the light goes orange and passing over the line when the light is red is not okay. And I have no idea how this message can be gotten through to Joe and Jane Soap while the gardai are either not there to enforce it, or turn a blind eye to it - if it is not being enforced then it must not be important, right?

meeeeh

CramCycle wrote: »

On motorways, look at here, facebook, twitter, all you hear are complaints, people saying we should have our motorways like the autobahn (typically people who have never been on an autobahn and don't realise how they operate), no need for a speed limit on our motorways.

I'm not in favour of no speed limit on motorways and a lot of German motorways have it anyway but I don't think higher 130 kph speed limit would be an issue. But can I ask how do autobahns operate? I drove there before and haven't noticed any major difference.

magicbastarder

autobahns are not necessarily safer.
i know a comparison is probably a little foolish, but they carry 30% of traffic in germany and account for 11% of fatalities.
in the UK, they carry 20% of traffic but account for 6% of fatalities.

plus, not all autobahns are limit-free.

meeeeh

magicbastarder wrote: »

autobahns are not necessarily safer.
i know a comparison is probably a little foolish, but they carry 30% of traffic in germany and account for 11% of fatalities.
in the UK, they carry 20% of traffic but account for 6% of fatalities.

plus, not all autobahns are limit-free.

I know that. I just don't there is anything different about them or at least I don't remember them being any different. Frankly driving on a busy autobahn when you are not used driving there constantly is not a picnic, you really need to concentrate. In comparison Irish motorways are very easy to drive on. Best I've driven on though are actually Hungarian because everyone knows very well how to behave on motorways and they are fairly empty.

Macy0161

I really don't see motorways as the focus for speeding, especially in the context of the safety of vulnerable road users like cyclists and pedestrians. Urban and regional road should be the main focus for speeding, and compliance in general. I was in before 7 this morning - the 7-7 bus lanes were ridiculous for the speed that motorists were travelling, and driver behaviour in general.

Snickers Man

magicbastarder wrote: »

it completely negates the whole point of them. you shouldn't be given forewarning about the (very limited) specific spots you actually need to adhere to the speed limit on.

What IS "the whole point of them"? To catch a few people and fine them or to improve general road user behaviour and thereby improve safety?

I would suggest the latter but there are clearly some people with a taste for vindictiveness who would prefer the former.

It's analogous to the asinine point of view, forcibly expressed by some on these boards, that "flashing" oncoming motorists to warn them of a speed check should be an offence. It should be rewarded!!

Personally I find that one of the most effective ways of encouraging me to take my foot off the gas is the use of flashing electronic speedometers linked to speed limit signs at the side of the road which tell you your speed when it is approaching or exceeding the local limit. It's a great way of reminding you that you may have strayed into dangerous driving territory.

Of course such signs don't discourage those who are tempted to speed regardless. No sympathy for THEM when they are caught. But they do act as a good spur (if that is the right analogy!) to those who may have absentmindedly failed to realise that they are in a lower speed limit area or that they have not noticed their speed has picked up. They/we tend to adjust accordingly and do so without the burden of a fine and points.

That's a good thing, as far as I am concerned. But it won't please the "Hang 'em and flog 'em!" brigade.

Snickers Man

meeeeh wrote: »

But can I ask how do autobahns operate? I drove there before and haven't noticed any major difference.

I know nobody hitch hikes any more but in my dim and distant youth (1980s) while hitchhiking in Europe, you would absolutely know the difference between an Autobahn in Germany and, say, a French Autoroute.

While hitching at a service area (hitchhiking on Autobahnen themselves is Strengst Verboten) the noise of the cars in Germany was quantitatively different from elsewhere.

In most countries cars sound like cars; on an Autobahn they sound like jet fighters on an airport runway. Yeeoowww!!!

randomname2005

Snickers Man wrote: »

What IS "the whole point of them"? To catch a few people and fine them or to improve general road user behaviour and thereby improve safety?

Are the two mutually exclusive? As I see it, there is no catching and fining for a lot of offences (such as breaking red lights, using phones, driving in bus lanes during operation hours). If a few (or many) are caught then the general road user behaviour improves, as does road safety.

magicbastarder

Snickers Man wrote: »

It's analogous to the asinine point of view, forcibly expressed by some on these boards, that "flashing" oncoming motorists to warn them of a speed check should be an offence. It should be rewarded!!

**** 'em - if they're speeding, let them get caught. might cool their jets a bit.

Snickers Man

randomname2005 wrote: »

Are the two mutually exclusive?

No but they're not synonymous or symbiotic either and the latter is more important.