Journalism and cycling

Macy0161

Lumen wrote: »

It really isn't a lot like here. Ireland is a great place to cycle. Australia is not.

Not yet, but the media commentary that is making such social media commentary acceptable here, is making it that way imo.

Stuff I see posted, and reactions to it, on for example village/ area forums does concern me as a cyclist. I have to "share the road" (literally in this case) with people that hold such views.

Thinkingaboutit

Macy0161 wrote: »

Not yet, but the media commentary that is making such social media commentary acceptable here, is making it that way imo.

Stuff I see posted, and reactions to it, on for example village/ area forums does concern me as a cyclist. I have to "share the road" (literally in this case) with people that hold such views.

Yes, if a person wants to read or hear IQ sapping stuff on Joe Duffy, FB groups for areas or journal.ie comments, it could go that direction. Some histrionic, hostile stuff. Even 'newspaper of record' places like the Irish Times are really motor-centric in their poorly thought-out editorials. The behaviour of the occasional weird or threatening driver must be in part shaped by that rubbish. Anyhow, the political system here encourages attentiveness to the stupid, and the stupid have votes. Anyhow, there have been verdicts here giving the dangerous driver a massive benefit of the doubt.

AndrewJRenko

Macy0161 wrote: »

Not yet, but the media commentary that is making such social media commentary acceptable here, is making it that way imo.

Stuff I see posted, and reactions to it, on for example village/ area forums does concern me as a cyclist. I have to "share the road" (literally in this case) with people that hold such views.

One cyclist was killed in Australia by a motorbiker who had previously posted on social media about killing cyclists.

Macy0161

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

One cyclist was killed in Australia by a motorbiker who had previously posted on social media about killing cyclists.

I see plenty of guff about running cyclists off the road, and have experienced enough punishment passes locally to suggest it's more luck than judgement that we haven't had more incidents.

Ray Bloody Purchase

Macy0161 wrote: »

I see plenty of guff about running cyclists off the road, and have experienced enough punishment passes locally to suggest it's more luck than judgement that we haven't had more incidents.

If you intentionally stabbed someone, you get done for murder. If you intentionally run them over with your car because you're having a fcuking bad day, it's dangerous driving. :eek:

Chips Lovell

Macy0161 wrote: »

Not yet, but the media commentary that is making such social media commentary acceptable here, is making it that way imo.

Angry people on the internet isn't data though. There's little or no evidence to suggest that Ireland isn't a very safe and pleasant place to cycle in.

Duckjob

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Angry people on the internet isn't data though. There's little or no evidence to suggest that Ireland isn't a very safe and pleasant place to cycle in.

"Safe and pleasant" is pretty subjective TBF, and means vastly different things to different people.

To me safe and pleasant would mean being able to go out anywhere on bikes safely with my wife and my 6 year old daughter. The infrastructure around where I live in Nth Dublin is so car-centric, with people tearing up and down the roads like they're in Mad Max, that I wouldn't do that until I actually wanted rid of my family.

"Safe and pleasant" also means to me not having to worry when I go on the bike whether I am risking not coming back to my family if I happen to meet the wrong psychopath on the road. The right to travel safety is seen as a basic right in the Netherlands.

Tell me how

Duckjob wrote: »

"Safe and pleasant" is pretty subjective TBF, and means vastly different things to different people.

To me safe and pleasant would mean being able to go out anywhere on bikes safely with my wife and my 6 year old daughter. The infrastructure around where I live in Nth Dublin is so car-centric, with people tearing up and down the roads like they're in Mad Max, that I wouldn't do that until I actually wanted rid of my family.

"Safe and pleasant" also means to me not having to worry when I go on the bike whether I am risking not coming back to my family if I happen to meet the wrong psychopath on the road. The right to travel safety is seen as a basic right in the Netherlands.

Yeah but there is a wide gap between the situation in Holland and intentional assault (or more) as in the video from Australia.

We, are generally closer to Holland in it's not out of pure hatred/viciousness intent which results in injuries.

Duckjob

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah but there is a wide gap between the situation in Holland and intentional assault (or more) as in the video from Australia.

We, are generally closer to Holland in it's not out of pure hatred/viciousness intent which results in injuries.

I'm not convinced you're right about that.

We've already had intentional assaults here in Dublin.

In the last couple of weeks alone I've had 2 incidents with taxi drivers at Dublin Airport roundabout. One of these involved the individual roaring out the window that he would "break yourrrr f**ckin earrrmmmm for ye". My crime ? Pointing towards his car and saying "what are you doing?" as he attempted to muscle past me unsafely in the same lane going around the roundabout.

I don't ride my bike in a disrespectful manner. I wear a helmet, reflective jacket and always light up brightly in the dark. I even have my road tax sorted with the car sitting at home Yet, cycling to get from A to B I can certainly sense a heightened level of aggression/hatred towards me which regularly comes spilling out from some motorists the second they feel they have been inconvenienced by one of those "cyclists".

Chips Lovell

Duckjob wrote: »

"Safe and pleasant" is pretty subjective TBF, and means vastly different things to different people.

Exactly. Just as your view of Dublin being akin to something out of Mad Max is pretty subjective.

Felexicon

Duckjob wrote: »

In the last couple of weeks alone I've had 2 incidents with taxi drivers at Dublin Airport roundabout. One of these involved the individual roaring out the window that he would "break yourrrr f**ckin earrrmmmm for ye". My crime ? Pointing towards his car and saying "what are you doing?" as he attempted to muscle past me unsafely in the same lane going around the roundabout.

That roundabout is a bloody nightmare. Can't understand why they didn't put a bike lane in heading towards Santry when they were doing the recent works. The one going towards Swords is ridiculous too. Takes you half way in to the Airport before you can cross the road.

I stick firmly to the middle of the lane both ways now and get off it as quickly as possible. The combination of taxis, buses and most people not having a clue what lane they should be in for the Airport/Car Rental places makes it a disaster to cycle on.

AndrewJRenko

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Exactly. Just as your view of Dublin being akin to something out of Mad Max is pretty subjective.

Just for context, in the past month or so, we've seen two examples of taxi drivers explicitly using their cars as a weapon to attack cyclists. In one case, the taxi driver knocked the cyclist off their bike. In the other, the taxi driver drove on the wrong side of the road to chase a cyclist.


There are just the incidents caught on camera.

Chips Lovell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just for context, in the past month or so, we've seen two examples of taxi drivers explicitly using their cars as a weapon to attack cyclists. In one case, the taxi driver knocked the cyclist off their bike. In the other, the taxi driver drove on the wrong side of the road to chase a cyclist.

And we've also had in the past month or so countless examples of cyclists going about their business with nothing of note happening.

This doesn't prove or disprove anything though. Unless you're arguing that "safe & pleasant" = "nothing bad ever happening".

Dangerous driving and road rage occurs in all countries. You'll find none where it never occurs. What's relevant though is the level of risk.

Rechuchote

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Dangerous driving and road rage occurs in all countries. You'll find none where it never occurs. What's relevant though is the level of risk.

You might as well say "Murder happens in all countries" - which it does, but there's a difference between Andorra and Venezuela.

The trouble is that dysfunctional driving is slowly becoming the norm in Ireland.

Chips Lovell

Rechuchote wrote: »

You might as well say "Murder happens in all countries" - which it does, but there's a difference between Andorra and Venezuela.

That's exactly the point I'm making

Rechuchote wrote: »

The trouble is that dysfunctional driving is slowly becoming the norm in Ireland.

Where is the data to support this? That Ireland is going more in the Venezuela direction than the Andorra direction?

Tell me how

Rechuchote wrote:

The trouble is that dysfunctional driving is slowly becoming the norm in Ireland.

Have you objective evidence of that?

Aside from the distraction introduced by mobile phones (a global issue) I can't see how you can state the general standard of driving is getting worse.

Macy0161

Macy0161 wrote: »

Zebra crossings should be the answer. My experience in my village, and even around town, is that drivers don't know the rules and are just as likely to carry on through whether you've stepped on the crossing or not.

Had a run in on the said zebra crossing - some idiot didn't slow at all on approach even though I was well on his side (I was crossing from his right to left). He wanted to know "what my f*cking problem was" when I called him out pointing out it was a zebra crossing on halloween!

AndrewJRenko

Tell me how wrote: »

Aside from the distraction introduced by mobile phones (a global issue)

A global issue indeed - though worth noting that Ireland is 2nd worst in Europe for checking social media while driving;

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2017/0725/892841-irish-drivers-use-of-mobiles-and-texting-while-driving-soars/

CramCycle

Macy0161 wrote: »

Had a run in on the said zebra crossing - some idiot didn't slow at all on approach even though I was well on his side (I was crossing from his right to left). He wanted to know "what my f*cking problem was" when I called him out pointing out it was a zebra crossing on halloween!

It is criminal that so few know how to behave at a zebra crossing. Its gottent o the point that many pedestrians stop and give way to traffic.

Tell me how

CramCycle wrote:

It is criminal that so few know how to behave at a zebra crossing. Its gottent o the point that many pedestrians stop and give way to traffic.

As with cyclists and motorists, there are issues on both sides.
Some motorists are careless, some pedestrians dive on to the crossing at last minute having been walking on the footpath parallel to the road and giving no indication they were going to do so. They have the right to, it's still a bit careless in my view.

magicbastarder

CramCycle wrote: »

It is criminal that so few know how to behave at a zebra crossing. Its gottent o the point that many pedestrians stop and give way to traffic.

it's one of the reasons DCC cite for not using them; that too few drivers understand the rules.
it's a chicken and egg scenario; drivers encounter them so rarely that they don't know what to do, so we keep them rare.

Macy0161

Tell me how wrote: »

As with cyclists and motorists, there are issues on both sides.
Some motorists are careless, some pedestrians dive on to the crossing at last minute having been walking on the footpath parallel to the road and giving no indication they were going to do so. They have the right to, it's still a bit careless in my view.

Well really motorists should be prepared to stop with anyone close to the crossing.

From the rules of the road, with their bolding...

Vehicles do not have an automatic right of way on the road. The overriding rule is, in all circumstances, to proceed with caution.

You must always yield to:
pedestrians already crossing at a junction;
pedestrians on a zebra crossing;
pedestrians on a pelican crossing when the amber light is flashing; and
pedestrians and traffic when you are moving off from a stationary
position (for example from your position at a stop sign or a parking
space).

To avoid doubt and in the interest of road safety, a vehicle should always yield to pedestrians

magicbastarder

actually, this is the exact response (andrew montague asked on my behalf about provision of a zebra crossing at castle market - basically crossing from the powerscourt centre over to grogans):

CHIEF EXECUTIVE’S REPLY:
Dublin City Council does not recommend Zebra crossings as they may provide a false sense of safety for pedestrians. In Ireland, a pedestrian does not have the right-of-way until they have already stepped onto a Zebra crossing. For this reason Dublin City Council’s preferred option is for crossings where the onus is unambiguously on the driver to stop.

The location is listed for examination and report by the Traffic Advisory Group. The Councillor will be informed of the recommendation in due course.

CramCycle

Tell me how wrote: »

As with cyclists and motorists, there are issues on both sides.
Some motorists are careless, some pedestrians dive on to the crossing at last minute having been walking on the footpath parallel to the road and giving no indication they were going to do so. They have the right to, it's still a bit careless in my view.

It may be careless but a driver and cyclist, should approach as if anyone who can make it to the crossing before them, will make it to the crossing before them. IMO anyway, they are typically only used in lower speed zones anyway, os it should not affect the driver, if driving with due caution too much. One day in UCD a student went through a Zebra crossing doing about 70kmph. Looking for a parking space apparently. I don't condone teaching through violence but the temptation to drag him from his car and give a clip around his ear was powerful. I settled for some empty threat, and he did seem sorry but I know he didn't get why I was angry. My niece is in that college, could be her he hits one of the days.

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's one of the reasons DCC cite for not using them; that too few drivers understand the rules.
it's a chicken and egg scenario; drivers encounter them so rarely that they don't know what to do, so we keep them rare.

Beyond stupidity, a marketing campaign and cameras to use if somone reports poor driving would sort it out. There are a range of places on my commute where the planners clearly planned on Zebra crossings and then they never got put in, so you have dipped kerbs, lights, islands but no road markings.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, this is the exact response (andrew montague asked on my behalf about provision of a zebra crossing at castle market - basically crossing from the powerscourt centre over to grogans):

Which is pretty much an ideal place to have one, although most pedestrians walk across at random points there anyway it is not far off becoming a semi pedestrianised zone completely. Bar deliveries in the early hours, cars should have been blocked from there years ago.

Tell me how

Macy0161 wrote: »

Well really motorists should be prepared to stop with anyone close to the crossing.

From the rules of the road, with their bolding...

I understand. But next time you are at a zebra crossing in a busy area, watch the footfall on the footpath. Do you wait until there is no one on the footpath either?

I am specifically giving an example of a pedestrian walking along the footpath approaching the crossing and then turning sharply without giving any indication that they were going to do so.

Getting pedantic about the rules of the road is generally done by individuals (pedestrians/cyclists/motorists) who are less conscious of everyone using shared spaces.

buffalo

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, this is the exact response (andrew montague asked on my behalf about provision of a zebra crossing at castle market - basically crossing from the powerscourt centre over to grogans):

I've seen recent comments from DCC that they're also a lot trickier for people with disabilities. Blind people for instance don't have any auditory indicator that it's safe to cross (like they do with signalled crossings), and people with certain mental conditions struggle with identifying when a driver is yielding to them and when they're not, making it more dangerous for them to cross than the rest of us.

As much as I'd love zebra crossings EVERYWHERE, in light of the above it's not as er, black and white as I used to think.

Macy0161

You should be prepared to stop, not necessarily give way. Basically not plough on regardless of people around the crossing (very likely above the posted speed limit, never mind a safe driving limit).

I'll just be clear, last night there was nothing close to the crossing. The car, imo, was speeding through the village (a whole different issue given the night that was in it, and the number of children around), I had crossed from the opposite side from the car, and it was still close enough for me to consider it a near miss. And somehow this has turned into a discussion about pedestrians diving under cars on zebra crossings. Sums up the mentality of a lot of drivers imo!

CramCycle

buffalo wrote: »

I've seen recent comments from DCC that they're also a lot trickier for people with disabilities. Blind people for instance don't have any auditory indicator that it's safe to cross (like they do with signalled crossings), and people with certain mental conditions struggle with identifying when a driver is yielding to them and when they're not, making it more dangerous for them to cross than the rest of us.

As much as I'd love zebra crossings EVERYWHERE, in light of the above it's not as er, black and white as I used to think.

But there is the problem, in the UK, you'd be shot for doing that. People with visual impairments simply walk out onto the zebra crossing. Because everyone expects the car to stop. Over here, it is a toss of a coin whether they will or not, and with the attitudes of the councils and the RSA, it is simply never going to change.

They are designed for low speed limit areas, where people should not be doing more than 30kmph regardless. On approaching, like a light that has been green since you first seen it or a flashing amber, you should slow down that if you need to stop in short order, it is easy to do so. The problem is, alot of drivers, treat them as if they are a green light, it is shocking and something that needs a fine, penalty points and the odd day where Gardai stick a camera on them randomly and get the message out there in the most effective fashion.

Chips Lovell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

A global issue indeed - though worth noting that Ireland is 2nd worst in Europe for checking social media while driving

This is somewhat misleading. The survey covered 14 countries, only six of which were in Europe (UK, Ireland, France, Poland, Spain, Italy). More correctly, we were the second worst in six European countries surveyed.