Journalism and cycling

tomasrojo

It's amazing how you can trample over the convenience of cyclists and pedestrians, once you nebulously invoke "safety".

buffalo

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's amazing how you can trample over the convenience of cyclists and pedestrians, once you nebulously invoke "safety".

In fairness, it probably would be unsafe to try cycle or walk on the path while coaches are driving on it. :pac:

tomasrojo

buffalo wrote: »

In fairness, it probably would be unsafe to try cycle or walk on the path while coaches are driving on it. :pac:

Ha! Yeah, should have thought of that!

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

btw, something i think i forgot to mention which came up at the dublin cycling campaign AGM - i asked about the forthcoming RSA report which has been rumoured to recommend that cycle lanes be made mandatory, but the current info/feeling that DCC have is that does not seem to be expected in the report. fingers crossed.

It would be strange to have stringent requirements to use something that has no binding standards related to construction and design ... but, of course, that was the situation before 2012 (or thereabouts).

StevieGriff

tomasrojo wrote: »

It would be strange to have stringent requirements to use something that has no binding standards related to construction and design ... but, of course, that was the situation before 2012 (or thereabouts).

That's the other side of it. If they become mandatory by law and a rider gets injured or even killed directly because of disrepair of the surface, where would the blame fall?
May as well make it mandatory to poke bears and stick cutlery in toasters.

CramCycle

StevieGriff wrote: »

That's the other side of it. If they become mandatory by law and a rider gets injured or even killed directly because of disrepair of the surface, where would the blame fall?
May as well make it mandatory to poke bears and stick cutlery in toasters.

That was precisely the reason given by Leo at the time he made them non mandatory. Some are dangerous to use and alot more are unfit for purpose. This has not changed in the last few years.

AndrewJRenko

buffalo wrote: »

In fairness, it probably would be unsafe to try cycle or walk on the path while coaches are driving on it. :pac:

It would be unsafe to drive coaches on it while people are cycling or walking on the path.

Roadhawk

magicbastarder wrote: »

heh, i never use the cycle lane on the alfie byrne road anyway.

Another good cycle lane goes unused. :rolleyes:

ThisRegard

Roadhawk wrote: »

Another good cycle lane goes unused. :rolleyes:

You mean coach park. And I'm sure he's not the only cyclist in north Dublin.

buffalo

Roadhawk wrote: »

Another good cycle lane goes unused. :rolleyes:

Is it really that good if there's potentially a coach blocking it? Not to mention the usual loss of priority at Eastpoint business park.

Roadhawk

ThisRegard wrote: »

You mean coach park. And I'm sure he's not the only cyclist in north Dublin.

Well im quite confused about the attitude toward coaches parking on the Alfie Byrne road? What is wrong with it?

Is there any difference between this cycle lane being closed for a few hours to allow parking for a concert and roads being closed for cycle races etc? Im sure there is an alternative route.

Give a little, take a little...where is the balance.

Annie get your Run

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well im quite confused about the attitude toward coaches parking on the Alfie Byrne road? What is wrong with it?

Is there any difference between this cycle lane being closed for a few hours to allow parking for a concert and roads being closed for cycle races etc? Im sure there is an alternative route.

Give a little, take a little...where is the balance.

I don't think there's much giving on their part though. I don't take part in cycle races as I'm sure many don't so there's no quid pro quo. To be honest it's more the attitude displayed by AGS and the Council. There are other options for coach parking for example The Port, East Coast Business Park or what about Moutjoy Square which they've actually banned coaches from (why?). It's just one more thing, in a very long list of things.

Also, as far as the Department of Transport, and Minister Ross are concerned, cycle lanes are mandatory....

tomasrojo

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well im quite confused about the attitude toward coaches parking on the Alfie Byrne road? What is wrong with it?

Is there any difference between this cycle lane being closed for a few hours to allow parking for a concert and roads being closed for cycle races etc? Im sure there is an alternative route.

Give a little, take a little...where is the balance.

There is a disparity between saying that cycle tracks should be mandatory because "safety" and saying cyclists should use the road when we need somewhere to store buses because "safety".

And buses are highly destructive of road surfaces, let alone cycle track surfaces, which are not built to a standard that would allow them to resist degradation for very long under those sort of stresses.

cdaly_

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well im quite confused about the attitude toward coaches parking on the Alfie Byrne road? What is wrong with it?

Is there any difference between this cycle lane being closed for a few hours to allow parking for a concert and roads being closed for cycle races etc? Im sure there is an alternative route.

Give a little, take a little...where is the balance.

magicbastarder

Roadhawk wrote: »

Another good cycle lane goes unused. :rolleyes:

southbound, i approach that road from fairview direction, so i'm not already on the cycle path - and IIRC, the first point at which it's dished to allow me to use it, coming from that direction is about one hundred metres down. but my main issue is that i proceed past the entrance to eastpoint, and the method by which the cycle lanes introduces me back onto the road at that junction is simply to drop me in front of left-turning traffic; the cycle lane simply just ends, it does not try to re-integrate cyclists back into traffic at all.

Roadhawk

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I don't think there's much giving on their part though. I don't take part in cycle races as I'm sure many don't so there's no quid pro quo. To be honest it's more the attitude displayed by AGS and the Council. There are other options for coach parking for example The Port, East Coast Business Park or what about Moutjoy Square which they've actually banned coaches from (why?). It's just one more thing, in a very long list of things.

I dont take part in cycle races either I'm still effected by road closures due to cycling events, as are other motorists. Most just take a different route. Its not a reason to protest as you suggested.

The Port is not a suitable place to park coaches as it operates around the clock and has very high security and safety requirements. East Coast BP is full of private companies, why would any of them allow buses to park there? Mount Joy Square...sounds like a plausible idea but im sure parking coaches here would only upset the locals for some reason.

I feel your pain...the Councils and AGS are making transport intolerable for all road users in Dublin. There are many of issues to be addressed, if they were even to address one it would look like progress.

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Also, as far as the Department of Transport, and Minister Ross are concerned, cycle lanes are mandatory....

I think they are the only people who treat the cycle lanes as being mandatory...

RobertFoster

Roadhawk wrote: »

Another good cycle lane goes unused. :rolleyes:

Who said it was a good cycle lane? In my experience the surface is lumpy and broken (I'm sure the busses aren't the cause...), when you reach Eastpoint you can either take the dished kerb back onto the road (if you realise in time), or cross at the pedestrian crossing, where you're left stranded <200m later on the wrong side of the road.

buffalo

Roadhawk wrote: »

I think they are the only people who treat the cycle lanes as being mandatory...

So do many members of the public who drive, as well as a significant number of so-called professional drivers.

Roadhawk

tomasrojo wrote: »

There is a disparity between saying that cycle tracks should be mandatory because "safety" and saying cyclists should use the road when we need somewhere to store buses because "safety".

I think the buses being parked on the Alfie Byrne Road is more for convenience than safety...

I just dont see how this is a massive inconvenience for cyclists. It looks more like a pride thing than anything else...

According to Google Maps it takes 4 min and 1.2km when using the Alfie Byrne Road or 7 mins and 1.8km when using the Clontarf Rd.

Chips Lovell

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Also, as far as the Department of Transport, and Minister Ross are concerned, cycle lanes are mandatory....

Cycle lanes aren't mandatory. That law as abolished several years ago. I know there was one Department of Transport official in the past year who (bizarrely) claimed the law was worded in such a way that it hadn't abolished mandatory use, but that would never stand up in a court. Minister Ross has never said anything on the matter.

magicbastarder

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Cycle lanes aren't mandatory. That law as abolished several years ago. I know there was one Department of Transport official in the past year who (bizarrely) claimed the law was worded in such a way that it hadn't abolished mandatory use, but that would never stand up in a court. Minister Ross has never said anything on the matter.

dublin cycling campaign have accepted that the change in 2012 was a bodge and has no legal standing, based on what i heard at the AGM. anyone i've talked to with a legal background reckoned an explanatory note has no weight in changing the law, but accepted that the law is probably unenforceable now.

Annie get your Run

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Cycle lanes aren't mandatory. That law as abolished several years ago. I know there was one Department of Transport official in the past year who (bizarrely) claimed the law was worded in such a way that it hadn't abolished mandatory use, but that would never stand up in a court. Minister Ross has never said anything on the matter.

My comment was tongue in cheek, there's a pretty good summary of the mandatory timeline / discussion here. The Minister has made several comments on the matter.

Chips Lovell

magicbastarder wrote: »

dublin cycling campaign have accepted that the change in 2012 was a bodge and has no legal standing, based on what i heard at the AGM. anyone i've talked to with a legal background reckoned an explanatory note has no weight in changing the law, but accepted that the law is probably unenforceable now.

They need to get better legal advice in that case. The law states that if there is any ambiguity (and I don't believe there is any ambiguity in the first place) about the interpretation of an instrument, then the intention of the lawmaker should be taken into account.

Unless the Department of Transport changes the law, it's a total non-issue.

tomasrojo

They seem to have dropped the claim that the mandatory use was never rescinded, and now they're waiting for a report from the RSA (magicbastarder alluded to it) about how important they are so they can make them mandatory again.

I hope the DCC as reported by magicbastarder are right and that report does not recommend they be made mandatory again.

From what IrishCycle.com has posted about this, it seems to have originated with and been driven by the Garaí wanting to issue fixed-penalty notices to cyclists who don't use cycling infrastructure. Since it isn't illegal as things stand, they needed a change.

tomasrojo

Roadhawk wrote: »

I think the buses being parked on the Alfie Byrne Road is more for convenience than safety...

Oh, it's definitely about parking and not about safety. But the official reason is "safety". Because it wouldn't look good to say the reason is ad-hoc parking.

Chips Lovell

tomasrojo wrote: »

...now they're waiting for a report from the RSA (magicbastarder alluded to it) about how important they are so they can make them mandatory again.

I hope the DCC as reported by magicbastarder are right and that report does not recommend they be made mandatory again.

From what I can gather, the RSA isn't planning on recommending blanket reintroduction of mandatory use.

However, they seem to be very cagey about what exactly they will be recommending, so I'm still mildly concerned that they'll call for some sort of partial rowback.

It's up to the minister of course to decide what, if anything, he wants to do about it.

tomasrojo

I guess there aren't that many options: make all things classified as cycle tracks compulsory to use; make "mandatory" ones (as in, mandatory for cars to stay off) compulsory to use and leave "non-mandatory"; make "non-mandatory ones" compulsory to use and leave "mandatory" ones (makes no sense whatsoever); or leave cyclists to decide which ones are usable.

I suppose there's the option of make cycle tracks (or one of the two subdivisions) compulsory to use at some times.

Chips Lovell

Yes, I've no idea how any partial measure would work. But, as I said, I'm only slightly worried and that's only because they appear unusually circumspect about it.

AndrewJRenko

Roadhawk wrote: »

The Port is not a suitable place to park coaches as it operates around the clock and has very high security and safety requirements.

Wouldn't the high security and round the clock be a very good reason for using it?

Roadhawk wrote: »

East Coast BP is full of private companies, why would any of them allow buses to park there?

You might have missed it, but these are private buses bringing private customers to a private event? Why should we be dedicating public space to accommodate all these private services? Let the coach companies come to come commercial arrangement for their parking service - it is their problem to fix.

Roadhawk wrote: »

According to Google Maps it takes 4 min and 1.2km when using the Alfie Byrne Road or 7 mins and 1.8km when using the Clontarf Rd.

Presumably, it would be even quicker for cars to pass the coaches if they just park on the road on Alfie Byrne Road, so you'd be even more positive about parking them on the road and letting the cars scoot past?

I love Sean nos

Roadhawk wrote: »

the Councils and AGS are making transport intolerable for all road users in Dublin.

Source please.