ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

stanley1980

not at all. Again, what constitutes a mass picket? I genuinely don't know. If a school has approx. 30-40 teachers why can't they collectively or even half of them protest from 9am-4pm (or whatever the school's hours are). On a separate but related note, I wonder how many of those protesting also agreed to sell out their younger colleagues at the time? I imagine there must be a sense of guilt amongst some of these people.

km79

Dominik Mammoth Millionaire wrote: »

Lobby your TD for a change in the law regarding mass pickets. We had 10 outside last time and were told it was too many by local Gardai. Teachers didn't make this law and you know that. You're just looking for a row.

Stanley1980 decided to just ignore this post and ask the same question again as to why 30/40 teachers can picket at the same time
So I've made it nice an easy by replying to the post.
At this stage it may just be easier to move this thread to After Hours .........

stanley1980

km79 wrote: »

Stanley1980 decided to just ignore this post and ask the same question again as to why 30/40 teachers can picket at the same time
So I've made it nice an easy by replying to the post.
At this stage it may just be easier to move this thread to After Hours .........

I haven't ignored it. I've asked an honest question. I know for a fact that during the last protest there were more than 10 teachers protesting at one point at my school so I'm querying what the law says on the issue. I think parents and others would be rightly annoyed if they knew teachers involved in this are willing to close schools for a full day but only spend one hour there themselves.

km79

stanley1980 wrote: »

I haven't ignored it. I've asked an honest question. I know for a fact that during the last protest there were more than 10 teachers protesting at one point at my school so I'm querying what the law says on the issue. I think parents and others would be rightly annoyed if they knew teachers involved in this are willing to close schools for a full day but only spend one hour there themselves.

You should have called the guards so as based on the evidence above 10 was deemed a mass picket.
But of course we are only speculating because WE DO NOT MAKE THE LAWS
Why not go onto the relevant forum and ask someone who works in the area of Law ?

r93kaey5p2izun

stanley1980 wrote: »

I haven't ignored it. I've asked an honest question. I know for a fact that during the last protest there were more than 10 teachers protesting at one point at my school so I'm querying what the law says on the issue. I think parents and others would be rightly annoyed if they knew teachers involved in this are willing to close schools for a full day but only spend one hour there themselves.

I can't find info for Ireland I have looked. Here is info for England which we usually mirror:

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/going-on-strike-and-picketing

It says a max of 6 is in their Code of Practice. It's likely the same here. The union guidelines say 4-6. Teachers don't make this rule. It applies to all strikes in all sectors. Parents and the public will, like yourself, find any reason to be contrary and argue with teachers no matter what the issue is. Lobby your TD for mass pickets. Can you not see how ridiculous it is to argue with teachers about a law they did not make?

implausible

stanley1980 wrote: »

I haven't ignored it. I've asked an honest question. I know for a fact that during the last protest there were more than 10 teachers protesting at one point at my school so I'm querying what the law says on the issue. I think parents and others would be rightly annoyed if they knew teachers involved in this are willing to close schools for a full day but only spend one hour there themselves.

There should not have been. I've taken this from the TUI website, which refers to the appropriate act:

* There are strict legal limits on picketing under the 1990 Industrial Relations Act.

o Picketing must be by members who are employees of the organisation in question and union officials.

o There must be only sufficient on picket duty to advise the relevant people – mass picketing is illegal. 4 to 6 is normally considered sufficient at an entrance.

stanley1980

Why would I have called the guards? I just explained I don't know what the law says on the matter. I've certainly never heard that 'argument' when I asked colleagues involved in my school- they're clearly as ignorant as me.....and you.

implausible

stanley1980 wrote: »

Why would I have called the guards? I just explained I don't know what the law says on the matter. I've certainly never heard that 'argument' when I asked colleagues involved in my school- they're clearly as ignorant as me.....and you.

It sound like laziness rather than ignorance to me - the shop steward organising the picket should have read the guidelines sent out before the strike.

acequion

implausible wrote: »

I agree that all teachers should be paid for s/s.

CBAs have been scaled back from the original proposals and are replacing Summer and/or Christmas tests. Schools have to lose at least one set of house exams to facilitate them: . It's in the revised Junior Cert Reform document.

SLARs (Subject Learning and Assessment Review Meetings) take two hours and teachers are allowed time for them. The paperwork is minimal, with a one page report filled in at the end and the teacher is not being assessed - you present the work along with the grade you've given it and discuss it with your colleagues. Even if they all disagree with your assessment, the original descriptor stands.

I'm not picking a fight, but I feel it necessary to address these inaccuracies. There are a lot of myths floating around about the new JC.

implausible,I read your posts and though I mainly disagree as we clearly have different views, I respect you as a collegue and as a fellow poster who is fair.

However, I'm not posting inaccuracies.If these SLARs are so easy and just a matter of comparing grades,why bother doing them? We have never been asked to do something like this before.I'm in my late 50's. I've been teaching in Ireland for the past 25 years and before that did a few years here in the 80's before deciding to emigrate.And I have never come across anything remotely like these SLARs.

I honestly and sincerely think that you're being either too naive or too good natured where these SLARs are concerned. I am fully convinced that it's a subtle way of getting us into an assessment culture which will lead to teacher assessment of both JC and LC by the back door. Otherwise why all this comparing samples of work? Why time allotted to it? And why the need for a convenor?

Time will tell which of us is right or wrong,if either. But as for getting time off for this, personally I would hate to be dragged away from teaching,which I enjoy,to something like the SLARs which I cannot see myself liking. So why force teachers into something like this? Why if there isn't an ulterior motive?

r93kaey5p2izun

In my school's case they were aware of the recommended 4-6 but with 94 union memers to cover an 8 hour picket they decided it wouldn't be an issue to have a few too many per slot. They thought it would have to be at least 15-20 before it would matter. Obviously this turned out not to be the case.

stanley1980

implausible wrote: »

It sound like laziness rather than ignorance to me - the shop steward organising the picket should have read the guidelines sent out before the strike.

Yes perhaps you're right. As a non-Union member I'm not privy to these details. I did ask colleagues though and they were unaware of this. When i asked why they were only protesting for 1 hour despite closing the school for the whole day I got a shrug of the shoulders. Much like the response I got when I asked them why there are 2 teachers' unions.

griffzinho

Gebgbegb wrote: »

please familiarise yourself with the charter... Esp comparing apples and oranges.
Thanks for the breakdown though!

Mod

I am more than aware of the charter, but surely you understand the only reason I referred to the private sector was to emphasise that increments should be considered a pay rise?!

Not an apples to oranges comparison. An increment is an increase in pay. An increase in pay is a rise. Not everyone gets an increment or a pay rise. The point is we can't take our increment as a given. It is a rise.

Anyway....

km79

stanley1980 wrote: »

Yes perhaps you're right. As a non-Union member I'm not privy to these details. I did ask colleagues though and they were unaware of this. When i asked why they were only protesting for 1 hour despite closing the school for the whole day I got a shrug of the shoulders. Much like the response I got when I asked them why there are 2 teachers' unions.

So just to be clear
You are a teacher
You are not in a union
And you are going around the staff room querying why your colleagues are "only " picketing for an hour ?
Wow

Inspector Coptoor

stanley1980 wrote: »

Yes perhaps you're right. As a non-Union member I'm not privy to these details. I did ask colleagues though and they were unaware of this. When i asked why they were only protesting for 1 hour despite closing the school for the whole day I got a shrug of the shoulders. Much like the response I got when I asked them why there are 2 teachers' unions.

Why does it matter so much to you how many teachers are on the picket line?
Disregarding the fact that it is illegal to have more than 6, is it not enough the workers are losing a day's pay while striking?
Now you want the workers to stand on the picket en masse all day long?
If you looked at the recent Luas and Dublin Bus strikes, you wouldn't have seen all the workers there at the same time.

Historically, there are two teachers unions at second level as there were two school types - voluntary schools and vocational schools.
There are now mixed union schools and, unfortunately, there are a lot of non-union teachers now as well.

stanley1980

km79 wrote: »

So just to be clear
You are a teacher
You are not in a union
And you are going around the staff room querying why your colleagues are "only " picketing for an hour ?
Wow

Yes-what's your point? Should I not be allowed to question decisions that affect me and my work? It's not a big issue as in my school there are a significant amount of teachers who are not in any union. That tells its own story. Unfortunately we are being held to ransom by large minority. All though I've a feeling ASTI will cave in to the government and common sense long before there are any strikes.

Inspector Coptoor

The phrase "large minority" is hilarious.

stanley1980

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

The phrase "large minority" is hilarious.

How so? Between non-union members and TUI that's exactly what they are in my school. In my experience, teachers (especially young ones) have been leaving ASTI in their droves or never joined in the first place.

km79

stanley1980 wrote: »

How so? Between non-union members and TUI that's exactly what they are in my school. In my experience, teachers (especially young ones) have been leaving ASTI in their droves or never joined in the first place.

And therefore have no voice in decisions that affect their work.
Good night

Inspector Coptoor

stanley1980 wrote: »

How so? Between non-union members and TUI that's exactly what they are in my school. In my experience, teachers (especially young ones) have been leaving ASTI in their droves or never joined in the first place.

In your school.

A sample size of n=1 is not empirical evidence.
I am the School steward in my school.
With a staff of around 75, we have 46 union members currently with more joining every week.
No TUI members.
HM and DHM are members.
It's a majority.

I can understand why NQTs and LPTs may have left the union in
The past, I considered it myself, some NQTs can't afford the union sub on such low hours, but now, more than ever, we all need to stand together.

I am pre 2011 teacher and I will happily strike in solidarity with them.

stanley1980

km79 wrote: »

And therefore have no voice in decisions that affect their work.
Good night

I would argue it's because they've seen these unions are ineffective and a waste of money. They preach equality and solidarity but happily sold their younger members out.

implausible

acequion wrote: »

I'm not posting inaccuracies.If these SLARs are so easy and just a matter of comparing grades,why bother doing them?
<>

I honestly and sincerely think that you're being either too naive or too good natured where these SLARs are concerned. I am fully convinced that it's a subtle way of getting us into an assessment culture which will lead to teacher assessment of both JC and LC by the back door. Otherwise why all this comparing samples of work? Why time allotted to it? And why the need for a convenor?

Perhaps inaccuracy is the wrong word, but suggesting something new (that CBAs replace summer exams), when it's already being done is misleading, especially to posters who may not be familiar with the revised JC reform.

Why bother doing them? Because we can't have external moderation (as there was so much objection to assessing our students for state certification), so it's one way of trying to ensure fairness and a standard across the school. Time is allotted to it to make sure it's done, taken seriously and to not increase the workload on teachers.

My colleagues and I share notes, plans and samples of work with each other all of the time and when it comes to a common exam, we often check the mark with each other. I don't see the SLAR as being any different to this. (Ideally, I would prefer if an external moderator came in to take a look at the work to make sure we're on track and to ensure a national standard, but that's a no-no in the current climate.)

Perhaps I am naiive, but this is my experience of the new JC and with all the hassle of bringing it in, I cannot see any drastic changes to it in the next decade.

Inspector Coptoor

stanley1980 wrote: »

I would argue it's because they've seen these unions are ineffective and a waste of money. They preach equality and solidarity but happily sold their younger members out.

That is simply untrue.
The union and its membership signed up to the Croke Park Agreement, and then, mid Agreement, when the ability to strike was off the table, the Public Accounts Committee as well as FEMPI legislation from Dail floor were brought in and that's where the new pay scales came from.

For the last time, no union member, old, young or in between, "sold" anyone out.

stanley1980

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

In your school.

A sample size of n=1 is not empirical evidence.
I am the School steward in my school.
With a staff of around 75, we have 46 union members currently with more joining every week.
No TUI members.
HM and DHM are members.
It's a majority.

I can understand why NQTs and LPTs may have left the union in
The past, I considered it myself, some NQTs can't afford the union sub on such low hours, but now, more than ever, we all need to stand together.

I am pre 2011 teacher and I will happily strike in solidarity with them.

I didn't claim to be presenting empirical evidence. Like most people I base my opinions on my experience. I'm a pre-2011 teacher too. No one sympathises with the plight of young teachers more than me. It took me over a decade to secure regular work- I feel enormously lucky. The truth is we all should have accepted pay cuts to ensure younger colleagues didn't get shafted. I never heard any union or members suggest that though. Now their full of righteous indignation?! It's cringeworthy.

km79

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

That is simply untrue.
The union and its membership signed up to the Croke Park Agreement, and then, mid Agreement, when the ability to strike was off the table, the Public Accounts Committee as well as FEMPI legislation from Dail floor were brought in and that's where the new pay scales came from.

For the last time, no union member, old, young or in between, "sold" anyone out.

Those who choose not to have a vote have no voice
But rich then criticizing those who are giving up a days pay to fight for working conditions for "only " picketing for an hour

stanley1980

km79 wrote: »

Those who choose not to have a vote have no voice
But rich then criticizing those who are giving up a days pay to fight for working conditions for "only " picketing for an hour

How could I join an organisation that sold out its most vulnerable members? You tell yourself what you like- I think deep down you know I'm right.

Inspector Coptoor

km79 wrote: »

Those who choose not to have a vote have no voice
But rich then criticizing those who are giving up a days pay to fight for working conditions for "only " picketing for an hour

That aimed at me km79?

Inspector Coptoor

stanley1980 wrote: »

How could I join an organisation that sold out its most vulnerable members? You tell yourself what you like- I think deep down you know I'm right.

Keep on using that inflammatory phrase "sold out" all you like.
Doesn't make it true.

If you're not into unions, fair enough, but don't be coming in here "critiquing" the ONLY union standing up for LPTs

km79

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

That aimed at me km79?

No sorry !
Can't reply to other person as they have been added to an ever growing ignore list

acequion

implausible wrote: »

Perhaps inaccuracy is the wrong word, but suggesting something new (that CBAs replace summer exams), when it's already being done is misleading, especially to posters who may not be familiar with the revised JC reform.

Why bother doing them? Because we can't have external moderation (as there was so much objection to assessing our students for state certification), so it's one way of trying to ensure fairness and a standard across the school. Time is allotted to it to make sure it's done, taken seriously and to not increase the workload on teachers.

My colleagues and I share notes, plans and samples of work with each other all of the time and when it comes to a common exam, we often check the mark with each other. I don't see the SLAR as being any different to this. (Ideally, I would prefer if an external moderator came in to take a look at the work to make sure we're on track and to ensure a national standard, but that's a no-no in the current climate.)

Perhaps I am naiive, but this is my experience of the new JC and with all the hassle of bringing it in, I cannot see any drastic changes to it in the next decade.

Ok. So I didn't know that Slar's were replacing summer exams. But that can only have been happening in the minority of teachers represented by TUI, so as ASTI is the majority and fighting a fight,how would I have known?

"Fairness and a standard across the school" What on earth do you or others think has been going on in second level education since it became free in Ireland in the 60's? And all this about taken seriously and fair,what do you really think has been going on all those years? Or do you think that the generation of teachers that educated you just stuck down a grade and didn't give a proverbial? If so what does that say about your education,or mine?

And you now mention an external monitor? Do you, as a teacher, not trust the professional judgement of your collegues for what is basically a house exam? Or do you go with the mistrust culture of recent times?

And as for sharing notes,plans etc my collegues and I do that too. We do it at subject meetings. We decide,plan etc and then go off to act as professionals and be trusted as such. That is what we are and what we do and what we've always done for crying out loud!

Really implausible I despair when I see collegues like you acting the proper little bureaucrat.

Did you ever hear of TRUST. Teachers are professionals and they can be trusted to do their best.

So, to recap. SBA's are grand as summer exams. And there is no need whatsoever to waste teacher time or tax payer money in an exercise which is basically a "cover the tracks". Education was never like that in Ireland and does not need to take that route now.Much greater need for resources than that.

evolving_doors

stanley1980 wrote: »

I would argue it's because they've seen these unions are ineffective and a waste of money. They preach equality and solidarity but happily sold their younger members out.

So you support them taking a stance now?