ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

acequion

Am I really reading here on the T&L forum the recently publicised rubbish that we "sold out" our younger collegues???

Is it not our own younger collegues that are perpetrating that utterly stupid lie?

If so nothing could epitomise Irish ignorance as that. As if any body anywhere would actually vote to shaft their younger collegues!!

That said,though I voted for pay equalisation, I have to admit to ambivalence because:

1. We have younger collegues posting obnoxiously and passing cringeworthy ignorant comments perpetrated by media that we "sold them out"

2. I attend all my branch meetings and 95% of the attendees are established teachers. The young generally don't attend.

3. Why are they choosing an oversupplied profession? Do they not read the papers,listen to the news. There are no jobs for teachers!!

4. "Established teachers should take pay cuts to support NQT's". Really!! What wage communist utopia are they living in?? Established teachers already took an approx 15% pay cut before the cut to NQT's. And much as I deplore the cut to NQT's,expecting us to take a further cut in solidarity is like something out of 1960's Cuba ie not viable and VERY idealistic to say the least.

So,though I do support you guys in theory,the attitude of some of you makes it damn hard work!

stanley1980

acequion wrote: »

Am I really reading here on the T&L forum the recently publicised rubbish that we "sold out" our younger collegues???

Is it not our own younger collegues that are perpetrating that utterly stupid lie?

If so nothing could epitomise Irish ignorance as that. As if any body anywhere would actually vote to shaft their younger collegues!!

That said,though I voted for pay equalisation, I have to admit to ambivalence because:

1. We have younger collegues posting obnoxiously and passing cringeworthy ignorant comments perpetrated by media that we "sold them out"

2. I attend all my branch meetings and 95% of the attendees are established teachers. The young generally don't attend.

3. Why are they choosing an oversupplied profession? Do they not read the papers,listen to the news. There are no jobs for teachers!!

4. "Established teachers should take pay cuts to support NQT's". Really!! What wage communist utopia are they living in?? Established teachers already took an approx 15% pay cut before the cut to NQT's. And much as I deplore the cut to NQT's,expecting us to take a further cut in solidarity is like something out of 1960's Cuba ie not viable and VERY idealistic to say the least.

So,though I do support you guys in theory,the attitude of some of you makes it damn hard work!

I'm sure they really appreciate your 'support'!
Your post pretty much sums up why I wouldn't dream of joining either union for the foreseeable. I've no doubt many of your comrades feel exactly the same......

seavill

stanley1980 wrote: »

I'm sure they really appreciate your 'support'!
Your post pretty much sums up why I wouldn't dream of joining either union for the foreseeable. I've no doubt many of your comrades feel exactly the same......

Whether or not you agree with what happened in the past, do you not think the Asti doing something now is better than not doing anything at all?

acequion

stanley1980 wrote: »

I'm sure they really appreciate your 'support'!
Your post pretty much sums up why I wouldn't dream of joining either union for the foreseeable. I've no doubt many of your comrades feel exactly the same......

You still don't have the intelligence to see that I actually voted to strike for wage equalisation. That I voted to lose pay and leave my students to stand in solidarity with you.

Though people like you are not deserving of that support.

And that too is very worrying for the future of the profession.

stanley1980

seavill wrote: »

Whether or not you agree with what happened in the past, do you not think the Asti doing something now is better than not doing anything at all?

This is the truth. I never once heard established teachers in any of the schools I worked in give out about pay-cuts for younger teachers. Croke Park hours and lack of promotion opportunities were the only topic ever discussed at staff meetings. The same people were members of both unions- there was complete inaction and an 'i'm alright jack' sentiment from them when new pay scales came in. The poster above embodies that.
I feel sorry for young teachers especially those scrambling round for a few hours every year....I was one myself until relatively recently. I genuinely believe that many in ASTI don't genuinely care about this issue and it's as much to give the government a bloody-nose for JC reforms as well as general anti-government/establishment sentiment. If they genuinely cared they wouldn't have been complicit in allowing this to happen in the first place.

stanley1980

acequion wrote: »

You still don't have the intelligence to see that I actually voted to strike for wage equalisation. That I voted to lose pay and leave my students to stand in solidarity with you.

Though people like you are not deserving of that support.

And that too is very worrying for the future of the profession.

Are you sure you're in a position to be commenting on other people's intelligence? You didn't do anything for me. I'm on the old scale and have a CID. Get back up on your cross.

seavill

stanley1980 wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

Whether or not you agree with what happened in the past, do you not think the Asti doing something now is better than not doing anything at all?

This is the truth. I never once heard established teachers in any of the schools I worked in give out about pay-cuts for younger teachers. Croke Park hours and lack of promotion opportunities were the only topic ever discussed at staff meetings. The same people were members of both unions- there was complete inaction and an 'i'm alright jack' sentiment from them when new pay scales came in. The poster above embodies that.
I feel sorry for young teachers especially those scrambling round for a few hours every year....I was one myself until relatively recently. I genuinely believe that many in ASTI don't genuinely care about this issue and it's as much to give the government a bloody-nose for JC reforms as well as general anti-government/establishment sentiment. If they genuinely cared they wouldn't have been complicit in allowing this to happen in the first place.

This is where I would have to disagree with you.

I don't think people would give up 7 days pay just to try piss off the government. The only ones it's hurting is themselves

I do think there was a complete lack of knowledge from a lot of established teachers up to recently but if my staffroom is anything to go by I think that has changed dramatically.

The established teachers I know do genuinely feel that it is wrong and are genuine in their suppprt now.
I don't think they didn't care in the past it just didn't effect them.

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

I'm sure they really appreciate your 'support'!
Your post pretty much sums up why I wouldn't dream of joining either union for the foreseeable. I've no doubt many of your comrades feel exactly the same......

You deciding to not join means you don't have a voice????

Its a bit like not voting and complaining bitterly about the election result.

You can't expect a union to work the way you want it to without joining and making your voice heard??

I can't see the logic in why you wouldn't join the union ...you appear to have strong opinions in this area, you feel there is some sort of injustice in the way things are playing out, you had a chance to influence the situation but did not join and make your voice heard?

The union is made up of its members, they get a vote and they have the ability to feed back through meetings/congress etc into decisions....its one thing criticising a closed loop making decisions that affect you but you could have had influence on this and chose not to so why complain

I can't make sense of it

stanley1980

Its a bit like not voting and complaining bitterly about the election result.


It's not really though is it. You don't have to be a member of a political party to vote. In my experience, teachers in Ireland are an extremely conservative group. They are a privileged clique who honestly don't know how handy they have it. As was shown with JC reforms, the unions are there primarily to maintain the status quo for 'established' teachers.

Iused2likebusts

Stanley are you really a teacher

stanley1980

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Stanley are you really a teacher

would you like my teaching council number?

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

It's not really though is it. You don't have to be a member of a political party to vote. In my experience, teachers in Ireland are an extremely conservative group. They are a privileged clique who honestly don't know how handy they have it. As was shown with JC reforms, the unions are there primarily to maintain the status quo for 'established' teachers.

It is really........you don't like a decision a union has taken....you had a chance to influence that decision and still have a chance to influence future decisions......you won't exercise your influence but blame your colleagues for exercising theirs???

I'm not sure how the JC "reforms" show what you think they do??

If you are a teacher I think you may be blaming the wrong people/organisations for past injustices.

stanley1980

amacca wrote: »

It is really........you don't like a decision a union has taken....you had a chance to influence that decision and still have a chance to influence future decisions......you won't exercise your influence but blame your colleagues for exercising theirs???

I'm not sure how the JC "reforms" show what you think they do??

If you are a teacher I think you may be blaming the wrong people/organisations for past injustices.

Teachers' reactions to the principle of change was dreadful re: JC. Leaving aside the nature of the changes, what I was saw was people opposed for no other reason than it was something new and different.

Who should I be blaming? The government for cutting wages across the board? I'm not an economics expert but whole country took a hit- we as a profession should've spread the pain.

acequion

stanley1980 wrote: »

Are you sure you're in a position to be commenting on other people's intelligence? You didn't do anything for me. I'm on the old scale and have a CID. Get back up on your cross.

This type of post has me very seriously worrying about the intelligence of future teachers.

griffzinho

stanley1980 wrote: »

This is the truth. I never once heard established teachers in any of the schools I worked in give out about pay-cuts for younger teachers. Croke Park hours and lack of promotion opportunities were the only topic ever discussed at staff meetings. The same people were members of both unions- there was complete inaction and an 'i'm alright jack' sentiment from them when new pay scales came in. The poster above embodies that.
I feel sorry for young teachers especially those scrambling round for a few hours every year....I was one myself until relatively recently. I genuinely believe that many in ASTI don't genuinely care about this issue and it's as much to give the government a bloody-nose for JC reforms as well as general anti-government/establishment sentiment. If they genuinely cared they wouldn't have been complicit in allowing this to happen in the first place.

Agree 100%. That is my opinion too. The same ASTI that knowingly voted to protect 'existing members' pay is now fighting so strongly to get it back. It is a strange one. I totally feel it is militant anti govt sentiment that influenced many to vote to not accept LRA and more recently vote to undertake strike action.

stanley1980

acequion wrote: »

This type of post has me very seriously worrying about the intelligence of future teachers.

oh the irony......

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

Teachers' reactions to the principle of change was dreadful re: JC. Leaving aside the nature of the changes, what I was saw was people opposed for no other reason than it was something new and different.

Thats a strange thing to leave aside..as far as I could see it was the nature of the changes and not just change itself that was being opposed

why would one leave aside the nature of the changes, as far as I could see those were in the main the crux of the issue....again I can't see the logic

stanley1980 wrote: »

I'm not an economics expert but whole country took a hit- we as a profession should've spread the pain.

I'm not sure the profession decided to concentrate the pain......again I think you are blaming the wrong group for this.......the different pay scales was a great way to drive a wedge between older and younger members of the union, that wouldn't be in unions interest ....afaik it was brought in mid way through CP while union hands were tied (I could be wrong here but that was my understanding) .....

stanley1980

amacca wrote: »

Thats a strange thing to leave aside..as far as I could see it was the nature of the changes and not just change itself that was being opposed

why would one leave aside the nature of the changes, were those not the crux of the issue....again I can't see the logic




I'm not sure the profession decided to concentrate the pain......again I think you are blaming the wrong group for this.......the different pay scales was a great way to drive a wedge between older and younger members of the union, that wouldn't be in unions interest ....afaik it was brought in mid way through CP while union hands were tied (I could be wrong here but that was my understanding) .....

I respectfully beg to differ. When changes were being proposed there was mass hysteria. Some of my colleagues and teachers interviewed by the media were suggesting teachers might get attacked in the street by parents if they negatively assessed their own students' work! I asked many of my colleagues about the changes....most had zero idea as they hadn't bothered finding out-preferring to repeat rumours. That said, the dept. made an absolute hames of it too.

amacca

stanley1980 wrote: »

I respectfully beg to differ. When changes were being proposed there was mass hysteria. Some of my colleagues and teachers interviewed by the media were suggesting teachers might get attacked in the street by parents if they negatively assessed their own students' work! I asked many of my colleagues about the changes....most had zero idea as they hadn't bothered finding out-preferring to repeat rumours. That said, the dept. made an absolute hames of it too.

Well fair enough we will agree to differ so I suppose but it might be worth bearing in mind that both of our experiences are down to colleagues or former colleagues and in my case my OH also so there is perhaps a big difference between schools and sets of teachers...it may not be fair to tar all teachers with this brush because some of your colleagues behaved in the way you have stated

According to her and I agree teachers had and still have very real concerns about the new JC "reforms" and consider them to be nothing more than a mixture of short term cost saving and dumbing down of standards which will ultimately lower the standards of education students are receiving along with potentially being the thin end of the wedge for increasing bureaucratic box ticking and form filling cover your ass style education currently being slowly recognised for its serious drawbacks in other countries if I'm not mistaken..basically they think its yellowpacking (the student and them)

Having looked (admittedly briefly) at whats available online for the new JC science syllabus I'd be of a similar opinion without being hysterical about it......I know its supposed to be skills rather than content focussed but what I can see is not good imo and a disimprovement on what came before it imo..I wouldnt be giving it a ringing endorsement....couple that with reduced hours, significant topics left out and a common level paper etc I would think my kid would be better off with the previous science course

evolving_doors

stanley1980 wrote: »

.... You didn't do anything for me. I'm on the old scale and have a CID. Get back up on your cross.

So are you saying you would still be on the old scale, with your CID, if there were no Unions?

Do you know how the old scale and teacher's CID's came about?

Do you agree with the ASTI union NOW on their stance on lower paid teachers? or maybe you think they (NQT/LPT) would be better served in LR. Just wondering which is it.

seavill

stanley1980 wrote: »

amacca wrote: »

It is really........you don't like a decision a union has taken....you had a chance to influence that decision and still have a chance to influence future decisions......you won't exercise your influence but blame your colleagues for exercising theirs???

I'm not sure how the JC "reforms" show what you think they do??

If you are a teacher I think you may be blaming the wrong people/organisations for past injustices.

Teachers' reactions to the principle of change was dreadful re: JC. Leaving aside the nature of the changes, what I was saw was people opposed for no other reason than it was something new and different.

Who should I be blaming? The government for cutting wages across the board? I'm not an economics expert but whole country took a hit- we as a profession should've spread the pain.

I don't get this argument. How many subjects have changed over the last 15 years.
There has been great interest in the new politics course.
Project maths was a massive change for those teachers.
DCG was huge for what was generally older male teachers that on a big scale were not very computer literate.
Irish has increased the oral section with the strath pictures also which changed how those teachers taught their classes.
I'm sure there are others too that have changed or updated over the last couple of decades.
Regardless teachers adapt to change regularly so I don't think you can leave aside the nature of the change. As someone else said the nature of the change is the current issue. Not change itself as outlined above

Lord TSC

I know this will be a bit unpopular, but trying to play devils advocate.

As I mentioned before, I had to leave the profession because of **** conditions for NQTs. Not paid as much if you could find work, if being key word, with work being like golddust thats to HR. Hoping that "retired" teachers aren't taking up what little there is, and when you get in, realizing there's zero stability to your job.

While I know it's not nice to admit, the reality is that the union let these conditions deteriorate. They let the changes be voted through, they decided to trust an untrustworthy government.

When, as an NQT, you're sitting at home, waiting for the phonecall to come that you know won't, it's hard not to think back to the PGDE classes where you were told, time and again, that you were in the golden generation, that jobs would be bountiful because all these teachers were about to retire, that you couldn't be getting into the profession at a better time. And then you get out to find the door is pretty much bolted shut on you, thanks to Croke Park and Harrington Road and whatever other deals the unions made with the government.

I blame the government mainly. Oh boy, do I blame the government. Their attempts to destroy the public sector turn my stomach, and the manner in which they victimize youth over and over in a bid to drive them from the country....I do blame them. But the unions, the top brass who were too busy licking up to those in power in the government to actually fight the changes as they happen....

Maybe I'm too naive, but I feel that unions should be preemptive, not reactive. There are changes that were brought in that targeted NQTs that should never have been let happen. I'm thrilled that the ASTI are going on strike, but also admit I think that it should have happened years ago. The government do not respect teachers. But the unions seemed content for years to still seek their approval.

It's great the ASTI are finally standing up for NQTs, but to acknowledge the problems, you have to acknowledge the events which led to them. The government inflicted these conditions with approval, even if reluctant, from those at the top of the unions. The teaching unions in this country don't seem to realise quite how much power they have, regardless of whether or not the public support them. Its great the ASTI have finally stood up for NQTs, but that doesn't change that the conditions deteriorated in the first place under their watch.

Thats not, I stress, an attack on older teachers; reading back over the topic discussing when HR was finally accepted, it's clear it was bullied through with numerous votes and promises. It's also a problem across the board in Ireland; unions, by and large, are more about pleasing their friends in high places than protecting conditions of grunts on the ground. It's no coincidence that all the strikes across numerous professions are occurring as Labour leave government. But the unions are not innocent in their role in letting conditions lower.

Still, I stress this part...there's going to be a campaign against teachers now, in the press, online, everywhere. And part of that is going to be focused on separating teachers from each other, trying to fracture the relationships between young and old teachers, pointing the finger solely at one as "sell outs". The focus shouldn't be on the past with these strikes though. Focus now needs to fall on the future of the profession, and restoring and protecting conditions from a government with an agenda. Let broken promises serve as a reminder when negotiating new deals.

seavill

Just two things on your post which was a very good post.

1. As far as I know the unions were not allowed to strike on pay for the duration of the last two agreements so it couldn't have happened in the last few years. It is only now happening because we are outside LRA.

2. I qualified in 2007 and was listening to the same bull**** from the colleges back then long before the bad times. As are people currently in college.
The retirements I was waiting for 10 years ago still haven't happened.
All that bull from the colleges has nothing to do with CP LRA HR etc

Lord TSC

seavill wrote: »

Just two things on your post which was a very good post.

1. As far as I know the unions were not allowed to strike on pay for the duration of the last two agreements so it couldn't have happened in the last few years. It is only now happening because we are outside LRA.

I appreciate that, but thats one of those agreements I find baffling, again, not just with teachers but with any trade union. That a group could be legally prevented from protesting is something I don't agree with at all. That a union would agree to such terms more so. Protests are a tenant upon which society should be built. Power to the people, and all that jazz...

2. I qualified in 2007 and was listening to the same bull**** from the colleges back then long before the bad times. As are people currently in college.
The retirements I was waiting for 10 years ago still haven't happened.
All that bull from the colleges has nothing to do with CP LRA HR etc

The reason I bring it up is because it's part of that "set up to fail" mentality that is instilled early on in a teacher's career. While it's not directly part of any agreement, it's impossible for it not to count towards the resentment that can develop in a teacher who recently graduated and is now stuck at home with nothing to do.

seavill

Lord TSC wrote: »

seavill wrote: »

Just two things on your post which was a very good post.

1. As far as I know the unions were not allowed to strike on pay for the duration of the last two agreements so it couldn't have happened in the last few years. It is only now happening because we are outside LRA.

I appreciate that, but thats one of those agreements I find baffling, again, not just with teachers but with any trade union. That a group could be legally prevented from protesting is something I don't agree with at all. That a union would agree to such terms more so. Protests are a tenant upon which society should be built. Power to the people, and all that jazz...

2. I qualified in 2007 and was listening to the same bull**** from the colleges back then long before the bad times. As are people currently in college.
The retirements I was waiting for 10 years ago still haven't happened.
All that bull from the colleges has nothing to do with CP LRA HR etc

The reason I bring it up is because it's part of that "set up to fail" mentality that is instilled early on in a teacher's career. While it's not directly part of any agreement, it's impossible for it not to count towards the resentment that can develop in a teacher who recently graduated and is now stuck at home with nothing to do.

I think the other point was that teachers rejected each of the agreements a couple of times before being broken down to after worse public pressure than now.
The country is in trouble play your part and sign the agreement. The agreement is the only show in town. It will be grand In a few years and we will fix it all back for you.
No one could have foreseen what is still happening now. I think the context to agreeing is very important as it is not as black and white as it appears.

The set up to fail thing you refer to is not the fault of the union. If the unions tried to force the government into capping numbers they would be the worst in the world.
The union are not the ones spouting this bull it's the colleges.
I graduated in the good times and it took me 6 years to get CID not 2 as it is now.
It was always this way just the supply is even greater now but because if the financial down turn the jobs are not there.

I don't always agree with union I refused to rejoin at one stage due to how I was treated by them but I also think they can't be blamed for everything. This thread is about the union which is how I picked up your point. Maybe you didn't mean that as your point it may have just been a genera point

An example being al the people here saying they should have strikes years ago. But are criticising them for striking now.

Criticising them for not signing up to the agreement but criticising for them to signing up in the past and now standing up for others.
I'm not saying you are doing that but people are throwing comments out without the full context.

political analyst

I wonder does the government consider the LRA worth the closure of most secondary schools for weeks on end.

evolving_doors

AGSI are talking about leaving LR now!

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

AGSI are talking about leaving LR now!

That shows that public-sector representative organisations can walk away from public-sector pay agreements. Therefore, the teachers' unions could have walked away from the CPA when the two-tier pay scale was introduced if they were willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

seavill

political analyst wrote: »

Gebgbegb wrote: »

AGSI are talking about leaving LR now!

That shows that public-sector representative organisations can walk away from public-sector pay agreements. Therefore, the teachers' unions could have walked away from the CPA when the two-tier pay scale was introduced if they were willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

Will you give over for once.

Threatening and doing it are two different things.

Inspector Coptoor

AGSI have voted to join pthe GRA for the 4 days of strikes in November.