ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

wirelessdude01

Inspector Coptoor wrote:

AGSI have voted to join pthe GRA for the 4 days of strikes in November.

This is huge huge news.

tayto lover

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This is huge huge news.

Hard to blame them really.
Not being allowed to strike, being denied restoration, Govt breaking HR agreement.
This was the only option left open to them.
Watch the Govt twist their puppet Commissioner into threatening them with all kinds of things now.

maude6868

I see that Minister Bruton has threatened to dock pay now for the non provision of s&s as it will be very difficult to keep schools open. What about those who don't provide s&s currently as they have paid not to do it? How can someone be docked pay for not doing what they paid not to do in the first place?

deiseindublin

I'd say he's just clutching at straws maude6868.

evolving_doors

maude6868 wrote: »

I see that Minister Bruton has threatened to dock pay now for the non provision of s&s as it will be very difficult to keep schools open. What about those who don't provide s&s currently as they have paid not to do it? How can someone be docked pay for not doing what they paid not to do in the first place?

S&S isn't part of core teaching duties though. It was just as optional as extra curricular. That's my understanding though.

chocoholic999

According to Irish Times the government is set to offer deal of s and s money in exchange for agreeing to do croke park hours. They are obsessed with those pointless hours!

coillsaille

chocoholic999 wrote: »

According to Irish Times the government is set to offer deal of s and s money in exchange for agreeing to do croke park hours. They are obsessed with those pointless hours!

No change of thinking or fresh approach there then. Sure the DES have been telling us since the ballot in May that they wouldn't pay the SnS money if we stopped the CP hours.

political analyst

chocoholic999 wrote: »

According to Irish Times the government is set to offer deal of s and s money in exchange for agreeing to do croke park hours. They are obsessed with those pointless hours!

Aren't those hours worse than S&S?

km79

so on conclusion the new deal is
to pay us the money owed for 2 years S and S to sign up for Croke Park hours AND s and s
LOL
this isn't going to end any time soon

chocoholic999

Hopefully there will be more to the talks than this, otherwise it'll be a long November at the gates. I might invest in a new scarf

man_no_plan

Gebgbegb wrote: »

S&S isn't part of core teaching duties though. It was just as optional as extra curricular. That's my understanding though.

Since croke park it is part of every teachers contract of employment. It is no longer optional.

Only those who hadn't opted in to the original scheme could buy themselves out of it.

Mardy Bum

km79 wrote: »

so on conclusion the new deal is
to pay us the money owed for 2 years S and S to sign up for Croke Park hours AND s and s
LOL
this isn't going to end any time soon

PR exercise by the government and has nothing to do with an actual deal. They are in big trouble now with the sergeants pulling out and need to show that they are doing something proactive even though they are not.

man_no_plan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

PR exercise by the government and has nothing to do with an actual deal. They are in big trouble now with the sergeants pulling out and need to show that they are doing something proactive even though they are not.

What are the two major issues. S&S and equal pay. If you got your s&s either inside or outside LRA that would have to be the end of that.

On the news the other night the ASTI man was saying that they wanted a timeline to pay equalisation. That's a far cry from actual equalisation.

Would the ASTI take s/s and pay equalisation and remain outside LRA with pre 2011 teachers remaining on an increment freeze without the restoration involved in LRA.

Or, do they want it all, now? It isn't very clear. The argument about equal pay for equal work is very clear but on what condition?

tayto lover

The Government seem to have lost their way entirely in all of this. They just don't seem to know what to do next. They are in big trouble in my opinion.

With regards to public opinion being against the teachers and gardai well I don't believe that to be true at all. It's clearly against this Government and will intensify as their relationship worsens with the workers in the PS.

Mardy Bum

man_no_plan wrote: »

What are the two major issues. S&S and equal pay. If you got your s&s either inside or outside LRA that would have to be the end of that.

On the news the other night the ASTI man was saying that they wanted a timeline to pay equalisation. That's a far cry from actual equalisation.

Would the ASTI take s/s and pay equalisation and remain outside LRA with pre 2011 teachers remaining on an increment freeze without the restoration involved in LRA.

Or, do they want it all, now? It isn't very clear. The argument about equal pay for equal work is very clear but on what condition?

The reason there is a strike over S and S is because the government didn't pay despite saying they would when Haddington ended without conditions i.e sign Landsdowne and take more Croke park hours if you want to be paid for the S and S. Pay the S and S now or we will not do S and S in November. We can discuss Landsdowne after this.

Yes I don't think anyone thinks equalisation will happen immediately. Personally I would take 8k over 4 years added to base salary and not through tax cuts as a decent timeline.

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

What are the two major issues. S&S and equal pay. If you got your s&s either inside or outside LRA that would have to be the end of that.

On the news the other night the ASTI man was saying that they wanted a timeline to pay equalisation. That's a far cry from actual equalisation.

Would the ASTI take s/s and pay equalisation and remain outside LRA with pre 2011 teachers remaining on an increment freeze without the restoration involved in LRA.

Or, do they want it all, now? It isn't very clear. The argument about equal pay for equal work is very clear but on what condition?

the actual S and S is not a major issue for me
the non "payment " for work that was delivered under the last deal is the issue
Croke Park hours are a much bigger issue for me
won't vote for them no matter how much money is thrown at us

implausible

km79 wrote:

Croke Park hours are a much bigger issue for me won't vote for them no matter how much money is thrown at us

I can't see the Govt backing down on this one as every other public servant has to do them (and a lot more of them). If they exempt teachers from them, then you'll have a domino effect throughout the public service.

There's a far better chance of getting the s/s money (it's already accounted for somewhere) and more movement towards pay restoration.

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

I can't see the Govt backing down on this one as every other public servant has to do them (and a lot more of them). If they exempt teachers from them, then you'll have a domino effect throughout the public service.

There's a far better chance of getting the s/s money (it's already accounted for somewhere) and more movement towards pay restoration.

Then the ASTI should push for the Govt to let schools have discretion over what is done in these hours and let the only obligation on teachers being that they be in the school for those hours and not in the same room.

A clocking-in system would prove that the teachers are at the school when they're supposed to be. To be honest, I never understood why there is no clocking-in system for teachers and other members of school staff, given that most other workers in the public and private sectors do it.

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

the actual S and S is not a major issue for me
the non "payment " for work that was delivered under the last deal is the issue
Croke Park hours are a much bigger issue for me
won't vote for them no matter how much money is thrown at us

I fully agree that you should be paid for doing it, inside or outside LRA. That was the plan. I suppose my point is then that you're striking over a timeline for pay restoration, I wonder do all teachers know that this won't end in a bag of money for everyone.

Like the JC strikes, people say 'what did we do them for'. They didn't know the detail before and they still don't but know the JC is still on the table so consider that nothing has changed.

implausible

The revised usage gives discretion to schools/teachers for 8 of these hours, increasing to 10 next year. However, judging by posts on here, many principals are not allowing teachers this discretion.





We sign attendance at most of ours. I'm guessing that other schools do the same. More flexibility over these hours is needed though, if the resentment towards them is to change. e.g. CPD completed by teachers can only count for a maximum of 8 hours and that is at the discretion of principals.

judeboy101

implausible wrote: »

The revised usage gives discretion to schools/teachers for 8 of these hours, increasing to 10 next year. However, judging by posts on here, many principals are not allowing teachers this discretion.



We sign attendance at most of ours. I'm guessing that other schools do the same.

Cp discretion is at the behest of Principal. As most new principals being recruited are in the "educational manager" school of thought, they will use this discretion how they feel, imho

Powerhouse

km79 wrote: »

Croke Park hours are a much bigger issue for me
won't vote for them no matter how much money is thrown at us

I am totally with you. While I actually work less now than before the era of CP hours as I pulled out of all extra-curricular activities as a result I don't see the point of sitting around in rooms trying to make up stuff to do in meetings.

My favourite story regarding CP hours was from someone who worked in a two-teacher Primary school and naturally had little difficulty 'liaising' with the other teacher in school-time so anything they needed to work on could be discussed as they went along. As a result their greatest difficulty was giving names to their CP hours activities e.g. resource management (chucking out old files/extra paper that had accumulated and general tidying up). Mind you, as he said, you can have a laugh about a few of them but when you have to do this multiple times it is difficult to keep up the delusion that constant meetings are either necessary or productive.

MrJones1973

Croke park hours are an insult. There is no reason why most teachers cant simply account for some planning hours to their Principals. Most teachers teach at least two subjects if not three and thus rarely meet as a Department. But then again Department structures are largely a mythical creation . Booker prizes could be won for reports that give impression they exist

Is this the case in your schools?

MrJones1973

implausible wrote: »

The revised usage gives discretion to schools/teachers for 8 of these hours, increasing to 10 next year. However, judging by posts on here, many principals are not allowing teachers this discretion.





We sign attendance at most of ours. I'm guessing that other schools do the same. More flexibility over these hours is needed though, if the resentment towards them is to change. e.g. CPD completed by teachers can only count for a maximum of 8 hours and that is at the discretion of principals.

I could be wrong but I dont think attendance sheets are required by the agreement.

MrJones1973

implausible wrote: »

The revised usage gives discretion to schools/teachers for 8 of these hours, increasing to 10 next year. However, judging by posts on here, many principals are not allowing teachers this discretion.





We sign attendance at most of ours. I'm guessing that other schools do the same. More flexibility over these hours is needed though, if the resentment towards them is to change. e.g. CPD completed by teachers can only count for a maximum of 8 hours and that is at the discretion of principals.

Why do I have to do Teacher detention when the work could easily be done at home? Again I dont think attedance sheets are required and if not-I would not sign one.

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

The revised usage gives discretion to schools/teachers for 8 of these hours, increasing to 10 next year. However, judging by posts on here, many principals are not allowing teachers this discretion.

Why are these principals not allowing teachers this discretion?

mirrorwall14

I know of schools where management want recognition of CPD under croke park hours removed never mind increasing it

doc_17

political analyst wrote: »

Then the ASTI should push for the Govt to let schools have discretion over what is done in these hours and let the only obligation on teachers being that they be in the school for those hours and not in the same room.

A clocking-in system would prove that the teachers are at the school when they're supposed to be. To be honest, I never understood why there is no clocking-in system for teachers and other members of school staff, given that most other workers in the public and private sectors do it.

If there was a clocking in system they wouldn't get as much out of us as they do. If that dark day ever happens then I will clock in and clock out, at the exact second I'm supposed to and not a millisecond more. No more correcting at home, course, teams, overnights, tours, trips gaisce.

km79

political analyst wrote: »

Then the ASTI should push for the Govt to let schools have discretion over what is done in these hours and let the only obligation on teachers being that they be in the school for those hours and not in the same room.

A clocking-in system would prove that the teachers are at the school when they're supposed to be. To be honest, I never understood why there is no clocking-in system for teachers and other members of school staff, given that most other workers in the public and private sectors do it.

My work works in a clerical role in a diff part of PS
They do NOT clock in
Their contribution to HRA/ LRA etc tocover tgeir croke parks HOURS was to shorten their lunch break by 12 mins a day to 48 mins ...........I'm sure they all abide by this

acequion

I am fully with the anti CP hours people And the idea of a clock in / out system gives me the shivers. What sort of dreary,utilitarian universe are some people envisaging?

Am also horrified at the suggestions to make CP 'productive' They are an insult and they are punitive. I would strike just to get rid of them. People suggesting ways to use them are actually helping to make them permanent. No way should we be accepting proscriptive CPD or proscriptive anything. We already clock in big hours at this job and we're poorly paid.

Recognised planning time and after school staff and P/t meetings are the only acceptable compromise. And people are very foolish if they don't fight tooth n nail on this now that we have the chance.