ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

I am fully with the anti CP hours people And the idea of a clock in / out system gives me the shivers. What sort of dreary,utilitarian universe are some people envisaging?

Am also horrified at the suggestions to make CP 'productive' They are an insult and they are punitive. I would strike just to get rid of them. People suggesting ways to use them are actually helping to make them permanent. No way should we be accepting proscriptive CPD or proscriptive anything. We already clock in big hours at this job and we're poorly paid.

Recognised planning time and after school staff and P/t meetings are the only acceptable compromise. And people are very foolish if they don't fight tooth n nail on this now that we have the chance.

The Croke park hours weren't the beginning of this, it started in 2004. Granted it took a big leap forward after this with the 33hours.

This detention and demeaning and unproductive talk is all well and good but sometimes teachers need to meet colleagues for subject planning and school planning.

How often do we hear that theres no 'consultation' or 'we weren't informed' it seems that planning, consultation and being informed are very desirable unless it happens after 4pm.

While 33 hours is, possibly, excessive any organisation needs to have some time for planning and reflection. Should this come from teaching time? The main effect of cp in my school was that we haven't lost teaching days to meetings which used to happen a lot.

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

The Croke park hours weren't the beginning of this, it started in 2004. Granted it took a big leap forward after this with the 33hours.

This detention and demeaning and unproductive talk is all well and good but sometimes teachers need to meet colleagues for subject planning and school planning.

How often do we hear that theres no 'consultation' or 'we weren't informed' it seems that planning, consultation and being informed are very desirable unless it happens after 4pm.

While 33 hours is, possibly, excessive any organisation needs to have some time for planning and reflection. Should this come from teaching time? The main effect of cp in my school was that we haven't lost teaching days to meetings which used to happen a lot.

Re read the post. I did say that staff meeting after school is an acceptable compromise. By staff meetings I'm referring to the whole thing ie subject meetings,liaising and all that.

A reasonable and acceptable number of these per year could be decided in advance along with the P/t meetings and possibly individual planning recognition.

Anything above and beyond that is demeaning.

And yes you are referring to the earlier half in/half out system. Which has brought to total of extra hours up to 45. Lunacy not to fight this!

deiseindublin

Very few TUI schools are actually doing the 8 flexi hours though, I've yet to come across any school that has paid any heed to that element of the agreement.

amacca

doc_17 wrote: »

If there was a clocking in system they wouldn't get as much out of us as they do. If that dark day ever happens then I will clock in and clock out, at the exact second I'm supposed to and not a millisecond more. No more correcting at home, course, teams, overnights, tours, trips gaisce.

Part of me thinks If only a majority had the backbone* to do this when CP hrs were proposed at all.....if all the extra teachers do is not valued or recognised then maybe it would be if it stopped for a while.........I'd say they wouldnt be long widening the definitions of what could be counted as CP hrs.

*I do understand why pulling out of things like this can be extremely difficult

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

I am fully with the anti CP hours people And the idea of a clock in / out system gives me the shivers. What sort of dreary,utilitarian universe are some people envisaging?

Am also horrified at the suggestions to make CP 'productive' They are an insult and they are punitive. I would strike just to get rid of them. People suggesting ways to use them are actually helping to make them permanent. No way should we be accepting proscriptive CPD or proscriptive anything. We already clock in big hours at this job and we're poorly paid.

Recognised planning time and after school staff and P/t meetings are the only acceptable compromise. And people are very foolish if they don't fight tooth n nail on this now that we have the chance.

The problem is:

If the government lets teachers off the CP hours then other public sector workers will demand the same concession and so LRA will collapse.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I dont think attendance sheets are required by the agreement.

How else is attendance to be proven to the Department?

tayto lover

political analyst wrote: »

The problem is:

If the government lets teachers off the CP hours then other public sector workers will demand the same concession and so LRA will collapse.

The CP hours are a really stupid idea when the teachers can't spend them actually teaching and have to use the time holding stupid and pointless meetings just for the sake of it.

political analyst

tayto lover wrote: »

The CP hours are a really stupid idea when the teachers can't spend them actually teaching and have to use the time holding stupid and pointless meetings just for the sake of it.

Having the hours involve teaching would mean having pupils in school for longer in the day. That wouldn't be feasible because of the amount of stress that children are under these days because of homework and exams.

The fact that other public-sector workers had to do extra hours under the CP deal meant that teachers were never going to get away without doing them too. That's the only reason the Govt insisted on those hours.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

Having the hours involve teaching would mean having pupils in school for longer in the day. That wouldn't be feasible because of the amount of stress that children are under these days because of homework and exams.

The fact that other public-sector workers had to do extra hours under the CP deal meant that teachers were never going to get away without doing them too. That's the only reason the Govt insisted on those hours.

I'd say most teachers on here understand that

what might be causing trouble is why all the other extra hours they do aren't recognised or allowed count for CP

it might also be why these hours may ultimately do much more harm than good to the education system - they are a good example of the drawbacks of a one size fits all policy imo

Mardy Bum

"You cannot give a different category of pay to one group of workers doing the same work as another group." Brendan Howlin on RTE about S and S but inadvertently highlights the need for equalisation of pay for LPT. Checkmate.

political analyst

amacca wrote: »

I'd say most teachers on here understand that

what might be causing trouble is why all the other extra hours they do aren't recognised or allowed count for CP

The problem is that the fact that extra-curricular work is voluntary means that not all teachers do it and thus it can't be counted for CP.

amacca wrote: »

it might also be why these hours may ultimately do much more harm than good to the education system - they are a good example of the drawbacks of a one size fits all policy imo

Then why doesn't the ASTI try to persuade other public-sector representative organisations of the uniqueness of the teaching profession, i.e. the fact that teachers do voluntary work inside and outside school hours?

political analyst

Mardy Bum wrote: »

"You cannot give a different category of pay to one group of workers doing the same work as another group." Brendan Howlin on RTE about S and S but inadvertently highlights the need for equalisation of pay for LPT. Checkmate.

I recall that, back in 2011, the ASTI said it would seek legal advice on the two-tier pay scale.

What has the ASTI got to lose by taking legal action against the two-tier pay scale? Doesn't it have lots of money because of the dues it gets from its members? For example, the English junior-doctors were unsuccessful in their legal challenge to the new contract of employment but at least they tried.

jayo76

I genuinely do hate saying it but if the Croke Park hours are retained in their current format then i really do think it is time to withdraw from everything done outside of teaching time other than the Detention hours.

I myself would hate to do it and imagine the detrimental impact on the overall holistic education of the students but if the government continues to ignore the value of trips, sport debates, musicals and whatever else then it may be time to just stop doing them. Teachers love doing them, most parents and kids are thankful for them but they are not valued outside of that.

In our school and Im sure elsewhere it has also become the norm in some classes for weekly extra classes for 6th year outside timetabled allocation and unpaid. I genuinely do not see the need for this many school managements do, especialy of young temporary teachers. These hours on top of supervision and CP are a huge burden.

I have said previously I have no problem with 26 CP hours. 18 for PT meetings and 8 for staff, outside of that the government has to recognise that just about every teacher is already giving the extra hours in some way.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

How else is attendance to be proven to the Department?

Confirmed with principal. No attendance sheets necessary for department. The principal probably sends in some form but nothing individual. While I want rid of hours they get way too much attention. What about erosion of middle management or bull **** initiatives ?
To my mind way more important.

political analyst

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Confirmed with principal. No attendance sheets necessary for department. The principal probably sends in some form but nothing individual. While I want rid of hours they get way too much attention. What about erosion of middle management or bull **** initiatives ?
To my mind way more important.

Wasn't the moratorium on middle-management positions partially alleviated under HRA?

As for BS initiatives, do you include Assessment for Learning and the new Junior Cycle system?

2011abc

political analyst wrote: »

Then the ASTI should push for the Govt to let schools have discretion over what is done in these hours and let the only obligation on teachers being that they be in the school for those hours and not in the same room.

A clocking-in system would prove that the teachers are at the school when they're supposed to be. To be honest, I never understood why there is no clocking-in system for teachers and other members of school staff, given that most other workers in the public and private sectors do it.

Sure why not go the whole hog and go for digital tagging ? Maybe Amazon style motion detectors ?

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

Re read the post. I did say that staff meeting after school is an acceptable compromise. By staff meetings I'm referring to the whole thing ie subject meetings,liaising and all that.

A reasonable and acceptable number of these per year could be decided in advance along with the P/t meetings and possibly individual planning recognition.

Anything above and beyond that is demeaning.

And yes you are referring to the earlier half in/half out system. Which has brought to total of extra hours up to 45. Lunacy not to fight this!

Yeah didn't mean to quote you. Just reply....

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

Wasn't the moratorium on middle-management positions partially alleviated under HRA?

As for BS initiatives, do you include Assessment for Learning and the new Junior Cycle system?

Alleviated ? That's an abuse of language by someone. ALL that happened was that a floor was put in. They could not fall below so many posts but our school has just five A posts for 700 kids and three b posts. Do you think that's enough with the JC on the agenda and the social work element of modern schools?
I do regard AFL as bull **** . I'm still making my mind up about the JC

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Alleviated ? That's an abuse of language by someone. ALL that happened was that a floor was put in. They could not fall below so many posts but our school has just five A posts for 700 kids and three b posts. Do you think that's enough with the JC on the agenda and the social work element of modern schools?
I do regard AFL as bull **** . I'm still making my mind up about the JC

Actually it's 5 APs and no SD posts unless you're lucky enough to have some, so its worse than that. There was an alleviation from a dire situation, but limited it certainly was.

ccazza

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Alleviated ? That's an abuse of language by someone. ALL that happened was that a floor was put in. They could not fall below so many posts but our school has just five A posts for 700 kids and three b posts. Do you think that's enough with the JC on the agenda and the social work element of modern schools?
I do regard AFL as bull **** . I'm still making my mind up about the JC

With the alleviation measure you should have 6 A posts, it's a ridiculous number but between 700-899 you're entitled to a minimum of 6 A posts.

ethical

Posts were eroded,yet the work was done,teachers just got on with it and doubled up on tasks while some moaned, it was all for the good of the school and the community and unfortunately while this may be true it proved that school could continue without extra posts and this is what has happened,throw in a Principal that delegates everything and you really have it bad! This government will be history by February.Its great to see the Garda seargents going along with their grass roots gardai,it just shows how bad things are.Paschal Donohue might as well "cull" every public sector worker over the age of 50 and employ two qualified young graduates in their place.By doing this he will double the Public Sector workforce,increase the tax take,(very handy when there are pensions to be paid) and it will mean that the new recruits will have no problem reaching a 35-40 year service which will qualify them for full pensions in the future,unlike the many teachers of today that will not ever reach a full pensionable service as they were subbing,part time,emigrant or unemployed for some thing like the first 15 years of their careers.PASCHAL,YOU DO NOT NEED TO PAY ANY CONSULTANTS TO CHECK OUT IF THIS WOULD WORK!

man_no_plan

ethical wrote: »

unlike the many teachers of today that will not ever reach a full pensionable service as they were subbing,part time,emigrant or unemployed for some thing like the first 15 years of their careers.PASCHAL,YOU DO NOT NEED TO PAY ANY CONSULTANTS TO CHECK OUT IF THIS WOULD WORK!

While it is true that there is a big issue with casualisation it was the case for many years, before the so called crash, that people were not made permanent for a good number of years.

amacca

political analyst wrote: »

The problem is that the fact that extra-curricular work is voluntary means that not all teachers do it and thus it can't be counted for CP.

Then I suppose no teacher should do it or be pressured to do it subtly or otherwise.....no asking about it during the interview process, no chance of it being allowed count as part of the score etc....of course we all know that would definitely happen right?

political analyst wrote: »

Then why doesn't the ASTI try to persuade other public-sector representative organisations of the uniqueness of the teaching profession, i.e. the fact that teachers do voluntary work inside and outside school hours?

For the same reason you used above in the first section of your post I quoted I suppose. Because they have no mandate to due to many teachers being committed to doing them anyway and wouldnt vote to withdraw them (so no popular support - this is one of their achilles heels, most do try to do their best for their students despite getting little or no recognition for it).....but this may change over time, I really believe these CP hours will ultimately leave schools poorer places for the students and the teachers in the long run......also because its preferable to fight over a clear principle or a breach of an agreement.....because they might get their ass handed to them if they went after the extracurricular issue (which is unfair but sadly its the way the world works) - I suspect you are more than intelligent enough to have figured all this out anyway and probably some extra reasons I haven't thought of.

amacca

ethical wrote: »

Posts were eroded,yet the work was done,teachers just got on with it and doubled up on tasks while some moaned, it was all for the good of the school and the community and unfortunately while this may be true it proved that school could continue without extra posts and this is what has happened

This illustrates neatly why ultimately you get punished for being generous with your time......

Although I believe schools won't continue satisfactorily without these posts, people will eventually wise up or the system will creak along as standards gradually erode.....

evolving_doors

amacca wrote: »

This illustrates neatly why ultimately you get punished for being generous with your time......

Although I believe schools won't continue satisfactorily without these posts, people will eventually wise up or the system will creak along as standards gradually erode.....

On the contrary, people will be dumbed down rather than wise up. Newer teachers coming through will just think of it as 'part of the job' when asked.

coillsaille

Colm O'Rourke says the DES should just give the ASTI the payments for SnS outside of LRA. Surprising opinion from such a consistent critic of the union.

jonseyblub

coillsaille wrote: »

Colm O'Rourke says the DES should just give the ASTI the payments for SnS outside of LRA. Surprising opinion from such a consistent critic of the union.

I'd say he's just dreading trying to deal with the consequences. No time to interview outside people to do S&S with all his other TV, Paper coaching and property developing commitments!!

evolving_doors

jonseyblub wrote: »

I'd say he's just dreading trying to deal with the consequences. No time to interview outside people to do S&S with all his other TV, Paper coaching and property developing commitments!!

km79

coillsaille wrote: »

Colm O'Rourke says the DES should just give the ASTI the payments for SnS outside of LRA. Surprising opinion from such a consistent critic of the union.

That would solve that problem
But then the TUI...........and all the other issues

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

That would solve that problem
But then the TUI...........and all the other issues

Well it would limit the school closure to strike days only for a start and to be fair the ASTI shouldn't have to do it unpaid.