ASTI OctNov Action *Post 1 for usual plea for restraint Especially New Posters *

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, there is no moral problem with TUI and INTO members also getting concessions that the ASTI might obtain (not to mention the constitutional aspect of course, i.e. the principle of equality).

Therefore, by that thinking, the recommendations of the Ward report cannot be applied to one of the above and not the other.

Inspector Coptoor

Ed Byrne getting roasted by Collette Fitzpatrick.

He's a decent communicator on a prepared script.

Not as good off the cuff.

MrJones1973

political analyst wrote: »

Many TUI members voted No; they just didn't constitute the majority of TUI membership. Furthermore, those who voted Yes may have honestly believed that it was the best deal that could be obtained. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, there is no moral problem with TUI and INTO members also getting concessions that the ASTI might obtain (not to mention the constitutional aspect of course, i.e. the principle of equality).

Tui ultimately lack balls. Same perhaps with asti. Look at bus workers . They held threat of all out strike. I know we are not bus drivers and that Dublin bus stood to lose a ton of cash but the point remains you either are aggressive or will be walked over. Can any teacher honestly say teaching as a profession is improving or even education is improving ? If you answer no to even one question -this indeed is a moral struggle. Teachers, you are the proverbial frog on the frying pan.

wirelessdude01

She totally badgers those she interviews when she doesn't agree with their point of view. Is well known for doing it especially when it comes to public and civil service issues.

mtoutlemonde

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Ed Byrne getting roasted by Collette Fitzpatrick.

He's a decent communicator on a prepared script.

Not as good off the cuff.

Was just going to post the same. She didn't give him much time to answer his questions but his responsiveness was poor.

Icsics

I thought Colette was disgraceful, badgered Ed & didn't give him a chance to answer. Now the minister getting a free ride from Pat, obviously the ministers won't debate with ASTI

mtoutlemonde

Icsics wrote: »

I thought Colette was disgraceful, badgered Ed & didn't give him a chance to answer. Now the minister getting a free ride from Pat, obviously the ministers won't debate with ASTI

Yes - I think he should be the other side of that desk.

MrJones1973

Look at 1986 in the depths of a recession both unions got a link for pensioners so that their salaries would be linked to current teachers. You might say this was a bad idea but they did achieve this. Once upon a time we got pay increases for cost of living without productivity. History indicates it doesn't have to be all downhill. You have the power.

I shall now exiile myself from this site for a week. Otherwise I shall need medication !:-)

MrJones1973

Lodge official complaints against her. Don't just sit on arses

evolving_doors

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Ed Byrne getting roasted by Collette Fitzpatrick.

He's a decent communicator on a prepared script.

Not as good off the cuff.

I thought he wasn't too bad...

pat king...Remember him?

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Tui ultimately lack balls. Same perhaps with asti. Look at bus workers . They held threat of all out strike. I know we are not bus drivers and that Dublin bus stood to lose a ton of cash but the point remains you either are aggressive or will be walked over. Can any teacher honestly say teaching as a profession is improving or even education is improving ? If you answer no to even one question -this indeed is a moral struggle. Teachers, you are the proverbial frog on the frying pan.

Very true, after all the hassle they caused (justified and all as it was!) they've gone under the radar recently. Did they rely on public sentiment.. The he'll they did.

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Tui ultimately lack balls. Same perhaps with asti. Look at bus workers . They held threat of all out strike. I know we are not bus drivers and that Dublin bus stood to lose a ton of cash but the point remains you either are aggressive or will be walked over. Can any teacher honestly say teaching as a profession is improving or even education is improving ? If you answer no to even one question -this indeed is a moral struggle. Teachers, you are the proverbial frog on the frying pan.

The ASTI have marched to the top of the hill and they have to put their money where their mouth is now after refusing to talk to the department during the summer.

These agreements are all successor s of each other and the various parts usually don't expire with the agreement, if they did we wouldn't be doing the m58/04 hours anymore. We got paid for those but the money was cut, yet we still do then without a complaint.

The HRA was an extension of CP, the LRA is an extension of the HRA. Thats the way these things work.

Saying TUI have no balls is all well and good. There's no point having your balls out on the table to get chopped off either.

I have posted this a few times here to no response. ASTI man Byrne on the radio last week looking for a timeline to restoration vrather than restoration. So how do you measure what's an acceptable timeline and what isn't, its fudging and it's prick acting.

political analyst

coillsaille wrote: »

Therefore, by that thinking, the recommendations of the Ward report cannot be applied to one of the above and not the other.

If the ASTI obtains concessions and they're not also given to the INTO and the TUI then those unions would abandon LRA. The Ward report is separate from the point that I raised in the post that you replied to.

acequion

man_no_plan wrote: »

The ASTI have marched to the top of the hill and they have to put their money where their mouth is now after refusing to talk to the department during the summer.

These agreements are all successor s of each other and the various parts usually don't expire with the agreement, if they did we wouldn't be doing the m58/04 hours anymore. We got paid for those but the money was cut, yet we still do then without a complaint.

The HRA was an extension of CP, the LRA is an extension of the HRA. Thats the way these things work.

Saying TUI have no balls is all well and good. There's no point having your balls out on the table to get chopped off either.

I have posted this a few times here to no response. ASTI man Byrne on the radio last week looking for a timeline to restoration vrather than restoration. So how do you measure what's an acceptable timeline and what isn't, its fudging and it's prick acting.

1.The ASTI have never refused to talk to the department. Rather the department refused to talk to the ASTI outside the LRA.

2.There was no ballot on the m58/04 hours so you cannot call it an agreement like the CPA,HRA etc.

3. You are sounding exactly like the Gov saying that one is an extension of the other and "that's the way these things work" Really?? Have you forgotten Howlin's "last ask" Back at the start of these agreements I very much doubt anyone would have voted for them if they thought they were permanent.

4.I don't know what your problem is about a timeline to pay restoration. Nobody expects pay restoration or pay equality in one fell swoop,so you are not clearly explaining why you see that as some flaw in ASTI arguments.

5. Your colourful image of balls being chopped off sums up how many see TUI,ie as a fearful,cautious union afraid to stick anything out. It actually is time to throw caution to the wind as caution is achieving little to nothing and all the while things are getting worse.

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

The ASTI have marched to the top of the hill and they have to put their money where their mouth is now after refusing to talk to the department during the summer.

These agreements are all successor s of each other and the various parts usually don't expire with the agreement, if they did we wouldn't be doing the m58/04 hours anymore. We got paid for those but the money was cut, yet we still do then without a complaint.

The HRA was an extension of CP, the LRA is an extension of the HRA. Thats the way these things work.

Saying TUI have no balls is all well and good. There's no point having your balls out on the table to get chopped off either.

I have posted this a few times here to no response. ASTI man Byrne on the radio last week looking for a timeline to restoration vrather than restoration. So how do you measure what's an acceptable timeline and what isn't, its fudging and it's prick acting.

It's just basic negotiation. There's a rule in haggling.. the first person to name their price always looses (as you've shown your hand). So I think it's strategic to put it up to the government to ask for a timeline on restoration (rather than a few quid here and be glad of it... and then lump in some more 'productivity' demands and a further degradation of the profession.). It also opens a door for concessions in a negotiation, which is all about ensuring the both sides save some face but offer something, even if the 'timeline' isn't really what it's all about.

There's no way it's going to end without a dance between both sides (like the way FF and FG are throwing shapes pretending to be opposing this and that but really on the same hymn sheet (good cop bad cop!). So if the minister takes the bait and enters into that topic then he's negotiating and it leaves an opener for discussion. If he refuses to be drawn on a timeline for restoration then it 'may' make him look like there's no plan in place (I think there was some promise of pay restoration at the start of all this!).

Strike's going ahead without doubt. ASTI will get to rattle about a bit before the MTB and the govt can appear to act defiant. But of course the mantra of 'nothing can happen outside LR will be repeated' so what's going to happen....

.... so what's going to happen? PAscal Mooney said today that the natural progression was to create another agreement after Lansdowne Road. Furthermore he said that the government is currently working on this agreement.

So there's the timeline (to save face from both sides).
But how to get ASTI into LR ! Maybe just fastrack them into the forthcoming new agreement (bonus prizes who can guess the name!)... or let them wait until it comes around and hope the recruitment of subs pays off.

And then there's the Junior Cert... probably another vote will get it through. This is one thing that the dept can change outside Lansdowne Road and get agreement on.

TL;DR

• S&S = See how the subs work out! If it's a disaster then at least it'll make the ASTI look bad aswell as the dept. If it works well then 'Irish solution to Irish Problem'.
• NQT PAy = Give a timeline (AKA kick the can down the road). Mention some all new sparkling agreemtn that's just around the corner.
• Junior Cert = Few Tweeks = Another Ballot = Probably get ASTI support.

At the moment it's about saving face / rattling the sabre / doing the dance.

evolving_doors

Please no more talk of bal|s, d***s etc . I have images of Richard Bruton and Ed Byrne that I cannot unsee. (Although it would have been more complicated if Jan was still minister.... ok just stop...please.

Mod

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

.... so what's going to happen? PAscal Mooney said today that the natural progression was to create another agreement after Lansdowne Road. Furthermore he said that the government is currently working on this agreement.

Paschal Donohoe is the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. Paschal Mooney is a Fianna Fáil former senator.

Gebgbegb wrote: »

So there's the timeline (to save face from both sides).
But how to get ASTI into LR ! Maybe just fastrack them into the forthcoming new agreement (bonus prizes who can guess the name!)... or let them wait until it comes around and hope the recruitment of subs pays off.

And then there's the Junior Cert... probably another vote will get it through. This is one thing that the dept can change outside Lansdowne Road and get agreement on.

TL;DR

• S&S = See how the subs work out! If it's a disaster then at least it'll make the ASTI look bad aswell as the dept. If it works well then 'Irish solution to Irish Problem'.
• NQT PAy = Give a timeline (AKA kick the can down the road). Mention some all new sparkling agreemtn that's just around the corner.
• Junior Cert = Few Tweeks = Another Ballot = Probably get ASTI support.

At the moment it's about saving face / rattling the sabre / doing the dance.

I believe it will take nine weeks to get external S&S applicants vetted. So the Govt has to ask itself a question: Which is more important - LRA or secondary pupils' education?

man_no_plan

acequion wrote: »

1.The ASTI have never refused to talk to the department. Rather the department refused to talk to the ASTI outside the LRA.

2.There was no ballot on the m58/04 hours so you cannot call it an agreement like the CPA,HRA etc.

3. You are sounding exactly like the Gov saying that one is an extension of the other and "that's the way these things work" Really?? Have you forgotten Howlin's "last ask" Back at the start of these agreements I very much doubt anyone would have voted for them if they thought they were permanent.

4.I don't know what your problem is about a timeline to pay restoration. Nobody expects pay restoration or pay equality in one fell swoop,so you are not clearly explaining why you see that as some flaw in ASTI arguments.

5. Your colourful image of balls being chopped off sums up how many see TUI,ie as a fearful,cautious union afraid to stick anything out. It actually is time to throw caution to the wind as caution is achieving little to nothing and all the while things are getting worse.

Notwithstanding upset the image caused I still think the point remains.

The public pay commission will look at equalisation of all public sector psy levels. The collective agreements will look at unwinding FEMPI.

The ASTI and TUI basically want the same things but go about it in different ways.

The TUI and INTO talked to the department while ASTI sat outside, that's the long and the short of it, they weren't party to what was offered because they were being bullish in my opinion.

The vote against the LRA achieved nothing in spite of the back slapping that went on. Now we have real action.

I gave no problem with a timeline for sorting this out, but, the clear impression given by the hardliners in ASTI is that this action will resolve all of these issues at once.

deiseindublin

You think ASTI are bullish? What about TUI? They were an absolute disgrace last May to campaign for a Yes after the resounding No they'd gotten previously. Yes, they got LRA over the line but less than 36% of its members voted in favour of it. Others either didn't vote or voted No.

They then get a kiss me arse partial restoration of pay and spend their time telling us how fabulous they are.

I'm totally disillusioned as a TUI member, often feel ashamed to say it out loud, can't decide if I'm better off leaving and using my sub on some mental health aids, let's face it, they don't represent me so what's the point.

Lots of members across the country are the same, was talking to friend and their union rep has thrown in the towel, nobody else will take it over because none of them feel represented and are still in shock at last May.

MrJones1973

I said I would stay away but I cant resist. Here i what I would demand
S and S payment now. The Government has a ludicrous position now. (Non negotiable)
A hack saw to Croke Park hours leaving just parent teacher meetings outside school (negotiable)
Shorten the period to pay new teachers extra money to 2017 and promise all future agreements will give them 5% extra until they are equal or nearly equal. New entrant should also realize that they have been screwed over Pensions. Actually screwed is too polite a word-left naked in a field miles from anywhere in November would be more accurate
Pay Restoration-a sizeable increase of say 5% no strings attached.


I believe the above is reasonable and realistic. I think Headquarter needs to get a feel for what is acceptable and what is not.

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I said I would stay away but I cant resist. Here i what I would demand
S and S payment now. The Government has a ludicrous position now. (Non negotiable)
A hack saw to Croke Park hours leaving just parent teacher meetings outside school (negotiable)
Shorten the period to pay new teachers extra money to 2017 and promise all future agreements will give them 5% extra until they are equal or nearly equal. New entrant should also realize that they have been screwed over Pensions. Actually screwed is too polite a word-left naked in a field miles from anywhere in November would be more accurate
Pay Restoration-a sizeable increase of say 5% no strings attached.


I believe the above is reasonable and realistic. I think Headquarter needs to get a feel for what is acceptable and what is not.

I think you're right about pensions, and i think you're right about HQ getting a measure.

2017 is in a few weeks with the combination of restoration, s/s and the measures for new entrants what % are we talking?

Croke park could easily be traded off against the JC hours and save massive money, still 11 hours left for two extra ptms plus a staff meeting once per term. but what about the 500 jobs promised? They would disappear too?

I think the DES missed a trick on that count.

As i said s/s should be paid if its being delivered.

Withdrawal from s/s alone would have achieved as much i think.

MrJones1973

We should not forget the JC. I have heard these so called English SLAR meetings where you work out common marking approach are a disaster. They end up being done after school as impossible to cover for 7 plus people. Unless department gives at least an A post for co-coordinating this Im voting no to any JC deal

Most of the people on this site are probably Yes voters but watch how quickly Yes majority will slide after few weeks. Teachers are a spineless crew who have largely taken on a huge amount of unpaid work. Yes-there was crisis but too much has been done by too few.
How many unpaid year heads are there out there? Do people not realize you wont get promoted or thanked? Worse-you will get more Work.

I do appreciate we all had to do more and I did too but enough is enough or is it?

feardeas

Didn't see TV3 last night but heard PK give dogs abuse to the AGSI president the other morning. Someone could ask him if his salary is linked to the fact that he is under performing his main rival by over 150k listeners. He's at the same rabble rousing he was at on the frontline.

Three separate colleagues thought Ed Byrne was poor. I thought he did OK on Prime Time Tuesday night.

Not sure the air war will matter. Can you imagine what talk to Joe will be like next Thursday. Dynamite I'd imagine.

This will be resolved. I believe we will be out a while. I think if the JMB etc close the schools they could be closed for a week at least. The pressure then will be severe to say the least. If there is a question of not being paid that will be very worrying. If we are told by management not to attend, a real possibility I hear, then that is tantamount to a lock out. This is the nightmare scenario that Pat King apparently warned about.

It is not beyond the bound of possibility that this is part of the plan. Allow the schools be closed. Have the clamour. Have confusion about pay. Perhaps a bit of panic. Lots of noise. Negotiations but only if S and S resumed. Nice ambiguous language in a resolution that will have to have a positive recommendation from whatever infernal committee decides this. If rejected the supervisors are in at that stage.

That accounts for one side. For the lower paid well maybe a similar deal that into and tui got with a mention of the pay commission and the next agreement. All of this contingent on CP hours continuing and an acceptance of the junior cycle deal negotiated for us by our union last May 12 months.

I know this is a bleak view but I think it's possible. I'm sure ye are glad the likes of me aren't at the table.

deiseindublin

TUI signed up for LRA at end of May with the promise of news from the pay commission in 6 months. Kevin Duffy was only appointed 2 days ago and so far he's a lone ranger. What are the chances of them getting back to us by end of November?

deiseindublin

feardeas wrote: »

Three separate colleagues thought Ed Byrne was poor. I thought he did OK on Prime Time Tuesday night.

He wasn't fabulous by any manner or means but CF was an absolute rottweiler, kept shouting questions at him and not letting him answer.

She kept repeating that parents would have to take paid time off to 'mind' their kids. What % of secondary school kids have paid minders for days off? Imo you have bigger problems than school strikes if you employ a childminder for a 12+ year old.

political analyst

feardeas wrote: »

Didn't see TV3 last night but heard PK give dogs abuse to the AGSI president the other morning. Someone could ask him if his salary is linked to the fact that he is under performing his main rival by over 150k listeners. He's at the same rabble rousing he was at on the frontline.

Three separate colleagues thought Ed Byrne was poor. I thought he did OK on Prime Time Tuesday night.

Not sure the air war will matter. Can you imagine what talk to Joe will be like next Thursday. Dynamite I'd imagine.

This will be resolved. I believe we will be out a while. I think if the JMB etc close the schools they could be closed for a week at least. The pressure then will be severe to say the least. If there is a question of not being paid that will be very worrying. If we are told by management not to attend, a real possibility I hear, then that is tantamount to a lock out. This is the nightmare scenario that Pat King apparently warned about.

It is not beyond the bound of possibility that this is part of the plan. Allow the schools be closed. Have the clamour. Have confusion about pay. Perhaps a bit of panic. Lots of noise. Negotiations but only if S and S resumed. Nice ambiguous language in a resolution that will have to have a positive recommendation from whatever infernal committee decides this. If rejected the supervisors are in at that stage.

That accounts for one side. For the lower paid well maybe a similar deal that into and tui got with a mention of the pay commission and the next agreement. All of this contingent on CP hours continuing and an acceptance of the junior cycle deal negotiated for us by our union last May 12 months.

I know this is a bleak view but I think it's possible. I'm sure ye are glad the likes of me aren't at the table.

Why doesn't the ASTI say to the Department: "We'll accept the CP hours if you drop the insistence that we're in the same room for any of those hours and permit in-service and meetings with inspectors to take place in those hours"?

evolving_doors

Crikey I totally forgot those CP hours. They seem like a distant memory now... a very long painful distant memory.

MrJones1973

feardeas wrote: »

Didn't see TV3 last night but heard PK give dogs abuse to the AGSI president the other morning. Someone could ask him if his salary is linked to the fact that he is under performing his main rival by over 150k listeners. He's at the same rabble rousing he was at on the frontline.

Three separate colleagues thought Ed Byrne was poor. I thought he did OK on Prime Time Tuesday night.

Not sure the air war will matter. Can you imagine what talk to Joe will be like next Thursday. Dynamite I'd imagine.

This will be resolved. I believe we will be out a while. I think if the JMB etc close the schools they could be closed for a week at least. The pressure then will be severe to say the least. If there is a question of not being paid that will be very worrying. If we are told by management not to attend, a real possibility I hear, then that is tantamount to a lock out. This is the nightmare scenario that Pat King apparently warned about.

It is not beyond the bound of possibility that this is part of the plan. Allow the schools be closed. Have the clamour. Have confusion about pay. Perhaps a bit of panic. Lots of noise. Negotiations but only if S and S resumed. Nice ambiguous language in a resolution that will have to have a positive recommendation from whatever infernal committee decides this. If rejected the supervisors are in at that stage.

That accounts for one side. For the lower paid well maybe a similar deal that into and tui got with a mention of the pay commission and the next agreement. All of this contingent on CP hours continuing and an acceptance of the junior cycle deal negotiated for us by our union last May 12 months.

I know this is a bleak view but I think it's possible. I'm sure ye are glad the likes of me aren't at the table.

Please don't take offense but what you wrote is quite vague ?! I'm not sure what your point is ? We will go out for a bit and then just simply go back in after a week? The pat king dominated standing committee majority is dead .A lock out might ensue but don't you think that will be bad publicity for the government ?
I'm not optimistic about asti membership holding the line but they have to be balloted on any new Deal and I can't see current construction of standing committee putting a tweak to members. . I know the numbers
If the government decided not to pay that's a huge escalation and does the government really want schools shut for 2-3 weeks ?

man_no_plan

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Please don't take offense but what you wrote is quite vague ?! I'm not sure what your point is ? We will go out for a bit and then just simply go back in after a week? The pat king dominated standing committee majority is dead .A lock out might ensue but don't you think that will be bad publicity for the government ?
I'm not optimistic about asti membership holding the line but they have to be balloted on any new Deal and I can't see current construction of standing committee putting a tweak to members. . I know the numbers
If the government decided not to pay that's a huge escalation and does the government really want schools shut for 2-3 weeks ?

Surely theyd be expected to attend work even if the kids aren't in?

MrJones1973

man_no_plan wrote: »

Surely theyd be expected to attend work even if the kids aren't in?

Who is they ?-if schools shut they are shut. Payment of teacher's becomes the issue..Though legally I'm not sure if the government can do that.